Torgen Vs Squirrel

[crackwombat]

Hi All,

 

We have a Torgem stove onboard our boat and are considering replacing it. The stove came with the boat and having used it for a short while we are not too impressed by it.

 

From what I've learned, the Torgem comes in a sort of kit form and from my limited understanding, I get the impression that our Torgem stove was put together by someone that was either blind, drunk or possibly both.

 

Around the edges of the top of the stove, where it meets the sides and back, there is a noticable gap of about half a centimetre. This offers a more traditional-style stove experience that I imagine one could describe as reminiscent of a more basic and rustic time.

 

Smoke from within is free to emanate from these gaps, causing at best a slightly stovey smell to encapsulate the boat and embed itself in all clothes and other fabric items and at worst, when the stove is getting going, it can cause a fair amount of smoke to build up in the boat and one can have the pleasure of witnessing flames up to one inch in height leap freely from the gap between the top and the back.

 

Its possible that some form of fireproof cement could be used to fill these gaps and we have witnessed such a thing whilst taking a look at the range of stoves at the Uxbridge Boat Centre. Whilst most if not all of the stoves on display seemed nicely sealed and pleasant to operate, the brand new Torgem on display looked like an embarassing second-hand failure.

 

Even if we were to seal the forementioned gaps, we would still be stuck with the curiously eccentric behaviour of the door which has the habit of not staying in place too well.

 

When shut, the door stays where it should however when open, the door is keen to fall out in a range of interesting ways. It has a particular tendency to perform such acts whilst being blisteringly hot and seems to leap out in a premeditated and vindictive fashion with the aim of harming anyone and anything within its range.

 

Fortunately we have a metal device intended for holding on to the handle to open and close the door when hot. This can come in useful as after the stove has been going for a few hours the door and handle seem to reach temperatures in excess of what one might expect within the very core of the sun. Unfortunately, due to the door's evil tendencies, the task of getting the door back in place and closed through the use of this metal device is about as convenient and simple as lifting an elephant with a toothpick.

 

To top it all off, with the sides being somewhat separated from the rest, the space in which the door should fit is only slightly less than the width of the door and the gap is sufficiently wide enough to offer the door the freedom of movement that it appears to crave.

 

We have therefore come to the decision of condemning the Torgem to some suitable and fitting fate and replacing it with something else.

 

Our requirements are not too picky. A stove that provides the same amount of heat as the Torgem but fails to offer all of the Torgem's unique benefits would fit quite nicely. As long as the door stays in place and can be opened and closed without any major risks and the stove is reasonably sealed we would be happy.

 

From looking at what is on offer at the Uxbridge Boat Centre, we have come to the decision that the Morso Squirrel seems like a suitable replacement.

 

Whilst not being the cheapest stove, the Squirrel appears to be well built and the door has a nice insulated handle that can be opened and closed easily. It also has a small handle that one can pull in and out to jiggle the coals, which seems quite nice.

 

The one concern we have is whether the Squirrel can offer the same heat output as the Torgem. Our boat safety certificate and associated paperwork state that the Torgem has an output of 4.6kW whereas the Squirrel seems to be rated at 4kW (the 1410 basic model).

 

This seems a little perculiar, as the Squirrel is substantially larger than the Torgem. I would have thought that as the Squirrel is larger, one can get a larger fire going within and with a larger surface area it would emanate more heat. But then my understanding of stove mechanics is somewhat basic and so I could be entirely wrong about this.

 

What we're looking for is the opinions of others who are more experienced and actually know something about stoves from having used them for some time.

 

Is the Squirrel a fair replacement for the Torgem in terms of heat output? We're looking to use it as the sole heat source for a 45ft, 6Ft 10in beam boat. The Torgem does this well, in a round about way. Would the Squirrel be equally as good?

 

Does anyone have a Squirrel? If so, how well does it heat your boat and how big is your boat?

 

Has anyone used a Squirrel and utterly despised it? If so, why?

 

One futher question is regarding heat distrubution. The Torgem seems great at getting the saloon to a nice temperature, with the air towards the roof even getting to a slightly unbearable temperature. However the heat does not pass well to the cabin as this is separated from the saloon by a small corridor off which the bathroom sits.

 

We were considering some sort of fan to blow the air from the saloon down the short corridor and warm the cabin more effectively. This would hopefully reduce the temperature in the saloon slightly and increase the temperature in the cabin, both being good things.

 

We were considering a stove-top fan for this purpose. The stove does not face in the correct direction, so a stove-top fan would not blow heat towards the cabin. However, we thought that with the air in the saloon circulating some of the warm air might be considerate enough to head off down the short corridor and into the cabin.

 

The other idea would be an electric fan blowing in the correct direction. The benefit of the stove-top fan is that, once bought, thats all it costs as it is self-powering.

 

Has anyone else encountered such a problem? If so, what did you do to overcome it?

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or comments anyone can offer!

 

Regards,

 

Jon Cram

[John Orentas]

Jon.

 

I suspect your stove was not put togeher very well in the first place, I think most are imported so they arrive as a sort of flat-pack. Like most castings of that kind the components should have been 'fetled' before assembly, which simply means removing all the unwanted flashing and bits of sand that comes with the process.

 

Bit of a messy job now, but you could take it to bits and clean up all the mating surfaces with a small angle grinder, you could use stove cement to seal everthing up on reassembly although the principle is supposed to be that any small gaps should fill up naturally with soot and gunge.

 

I can't make any suggestions for the delinquent door but perhaps when the body of the stove is behaving itself the door may follow the example, or perhaps a bit of fetling and adjustment may do the trick.

 

There is no doubt a method for rating stove output but it won't be like 'brain surgery'. Size for size one should be as good as another.

 

Decided to make a fan contraption this winter as soon as I can scrounge a suitable largish computer fan, I understand those 'heat engine' ones are good but I have a bit of a phobia about handing money over for something I can make myself.

 

John Squeers.

Edited November 20, 2004 by John Orentas

[timboharticus]

 

Welcome

 

Squirrel stoves are excellent.

 

If you want to save some money you could renovate your existing, but if it quite old anyway it may not be worth it

 

I would not use your stove as is.

[crackwombat]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

John

Thanks for the suggestion of how to renovate the Torgem. It may be worth considering if we can't afford the Squirrel, but as the Squirrel seems exceptionally superior, I very much doubt that we'll try and keep the Torgem alive.

 

As the the fan you are planning on building, is this a stove-top fan? From what I've seen computer fans tend to be plastic, which might not be too good for stove-top temperatures.

 

When you get round to making the fan, and if it is a stove-top one, I'd certainly appreciate a description of how you went about it and what materials were involved.

 

Timbo

Thanks for your support of the Squirrel! Do you have one yourself? What experience do you have with them?

[John Bean]

I had a Torgem fitted to Alacrity when she was built, the stove had a mind of its own and either went into blast furnace mode or just sulked and went out.

After a while i noticed that the castings had warped and fitted where they touched so I stripped and rebuilt it using fire cement and glassfibre cord. it didn't make a bit of difference.

What frightened me was the ammount of carbon monoxide it must have given off.

I have how fitted a Squirrel stove ..... its better than sliced bread. it is so controlable and economic. The Torgem now has been recycled.

[John Orentas]

Jon.

 

Go on, have a go at renovation, I don't have either type but I am sure there is not much between them apart from the way they are put together.

 

Yes it is a stove top fan I am thinking of, or perhaps a little to one side to avoid direct convection when not running. The better computer fans are high quality items, they are usually of metal construction, quiet, coninuously rated and have fairly high temerature reting. If it is done correctly the fan will draw in cool air and blow it across the stove where it will be heated and mixed with other hot air. I will keep you informed.

 

John Squeers

[crackwombat]

John Bean

Thanks very much for your reply!

 

Its good to hear from someone who was in the same boat as us (not literally, of course!)

 

When it came to fitting the Squirrel, was this something you handled yourself or did you have it fitted by someone else?

 

I assume that there is nothing more complicated than getting the chimney pipe the right length and cementing it in place at the stove end.

 

Is it as simlpe as I imagine it to be or is there more to it than meets the eye? Particularly I'd like to be know of any potential hazards to be aware of.

[crackwombat]

John Orentas

Thanks again for your comments. If I felt that renovationing the Torgem would make using and operating the stove a delightful experience, I would probably consider it.

 

But having read that someone else had a very identical problem, I'm confident now that the Torgem is not worth trying to save. Although as it is decently weighty, it'll probably join our old batteries as an addition to our interesting collection of ballast.

 

As for the fan, I'll certainly be interested to hear how it goes. One thing I'm particularly interested in hearing about would be the quiteness of the fan. One of the options was to use a stove-top fan, the other to use an electric fan. In some ways, the electric fan would be better but would only be pleasant if it was practically silent. If you go for the option of not a stove-top fan, I'd be very happy to hear about how quiet the fan is.

 

As I mentioned before, the stove is in the saloon and the cabin a little way off down a small corridor. The stove has a small partition behind it that forms part of the corridor. If this partition were not there, you could look through the cabin door straight at the back of the stove. This partition gets very warm. One idea was to cut a round hole in this (wooden) partition and have the fan blow air through the partition from the saloon down the short corridor to the cabin. This would be superb but if noisy it may disturb the serentiy of a good night's sleep.

[John Bean]

The Squirrel weighs more than the Torgem so you may find that dependant on its position the trim might need altering.

 

As to the flue pipe i used the same diameter as for the Torgem but used the flue reducer as supplied for the Squirrel, I needed to get three blobs of weld put on the bottom of the flue pipe to stop it sliding down the reducer, I sealed it with glassfibre cord and flexible fire cement.

 

The flue where it passed through the cast roof flange was packed again with glassfibre cord and flaunched with high temp red silicone sealer. This enables any condensation to go into the stove and not the roof.the flexible sealing also allows for the expansion of the flue.

 

Dont forget to bolt the stove down some have feet made with a flange to bolt through mine didn't so i used 4 small offcuts of 1 inch angle to do the job.

 

Even with a short chimney the Squirrel draws well and is so controlable when burning solid fuel or wood you just need to experiment with the two air controls to get the best ballance.

 

One point some Squirrels are supplied with a small bit of angle screwed to the ash box door to make it impossible to open unless you open the firebox door first its best to remove this as sometimes you need to open the ash box door to get more air flow to light the stove.

 

John.

[dor]

I would be very wary about trying to fix the Torgem. If smoke and flames are leaking, then so is carbon monoxide. You may think you have stopped the smoke, but could you be sure about the CO? I think that stoves are a much more potential danger with respect to CO poisoning than the often quoted gas fridges. (And I have good reason to think so - in view of the previous history of my boat).

 

I think the Squirrel is excellent: efficient, easy to control, and easy to operate. It should be quite capable of heating a 45 ft boat, I used to use a 62 foot which only had a squirrel. biggest problem is getting the heat distributed down the boat, and stove top fans certainly help.

[ChrisPy]

I'm about to purchase a diesel fuelled cabin stove with back boiler, water circulation to work on the gravity system.

 

I can't really decide between Bubbles (why is it so much more expensive?), Squirrel and Refleks. I rather admire the utilitarian appearance of the Refleks.

 

Any comments or advice would be welcome.

[Big COL]

Chris

 

Try and compare boiler outputs and efficiency to price, this may explain the price differential. Most of the small stoves used on boats, the boilers only have around a 2kw output, bubble have a model which has a 3kw boiler,

[Guest whould be dhutch]

on emily anne we have a Sqirrel

 

- if fact its our second, after our first got damaged by our chimany instalation

 

- and where very happy with it, it burns very nicely and day and all night, it looks nice, feels nice, we have it burning smokeless fuel, and powering 3radiators and the calorfiyer on a pumpless system, and it puts out more than enough heat for any 60footer

 

- its a good buy in anyone book

 

 

daniel

[Rick]

and the calorfiyer on a pumpless system, and it puts out more than enough heat for any 60footer

daniel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do you get much heat into the calorifier or is it more of a "trickle charge". We have just fired up our Squirrel, two rads and into the calorifier, with a pumped system and the amount of heat going into the cal. is very small.

 

Richard

[Big COL]

Richard

 

Are the rads getting hot? Is the first rad hotter than the second? How hot is the flow leaving the second rad and going to the cal? how hot is the return after the cal? also is the pump going the right way (as some pumps have a brown and black wire and the polarity is not as you would expect)? Finally what is the temperature differential between the flow and return at the boiler.

Edited November 23, 2004 by Big COL

[John Orentas]

You will need to arrange for some restriction in the flow through the radiators, ideally with the addition of a control valve if not already fitted.

 

John Squeers

[DHutch]

Yeah, it should be fine, but you will need to screw the rads valves down a little, but it should work fine.

 

- our works fine, as long as we get all the bubbles out the coils!! (becuase otherwise, with the pumpless sytem you get air locks

 

 

daniel

[Rick]

Replying to Colin and John,

 

I have followed domestic central heating practice as I was advised. There is a "ring main" of 22 mm pipe, flow and return. The first rad is tapped of this with 15mm and gets hot. The second rad is similar. The 22 then runs to the rear of the boat and completes the loop there with a tapping, in 15 mm, into the calorifier. The return pipe is still hot on its way back and the feed into the calorifier is hot but obviously with such a small feed the flow is only small. There is a stop valve into the cal which Karunda, the suppliers of the Bolin pump, suggested. The only thing I wondered about is the 22 mm ring. Should this in fact be there? Or should I use the calorifier as the return.

 

Or should I chuck the whole darn lot into the canal and buy more sweaters?

 

There are valves on the rads.

 

I had problems with airlocks but expert advice sussed these out and they are now clear.

 

Richard

Edited November 23, 2004 by Rick

[John Orentas]

Rick.

 

Start to gently close the radiator valves a little at a time to induce more flow through the calorifier but it may just stop convecting altogether. Might be asking a bit much with a compex circuit but you never know.

 

John Squeers

[Rick]

Rick.

 

Start to gently close the radiator valves a little at a time to induce more flow through the calorifier but it may just stop convecting altogether.  Might be asking a bit much with a compex circuit but you never know.

 

John Squeers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

John,

 

Surely if I reduce the flow to the rads it will simply mean that there is hotter water going along the return pipe. The temp of the return pipe now is hot. I am wondering if I should break the link between the flow and return pipes and use the cal as the return.

 

The pump I am using is very low rated, point 15 amps. It was described to me as not so much pumping the water round, more annoying it.

 

Richard

[John Orentas]

Richard.

 

I had the impression you did not have a pump, the idea is to get more hot water flowing through the calorifier. Could you give us a more detailed decription of the circuit.

 

Do you mean 0.15 amps 1.5 amps 15 amps

 

 

John Squeers

[Big COL]

Rick

 

Is the ring going past the cal being used? ie to warm the engine room. Normal practice is that the last rad or cal in this case,makes the link from the flow and return. You could fit a valve on the flow after the connection to the cal and when this valve is closed the cal will make the link. What John is suggesting is for you to balance the system. Try this first but use the balance valve if you have them fitted this is on the other end of the rad from the on/off valve, doing it this way enables you to close a rad down should you need to without interfering with the balance of the system. You could also have an air lock in the cals coil try cracking the joint on the flow just befor the cal and bleed off some water into a dish.

Edited November 23, 2004 by Big COL

[Rick]

John, I meant 0.15 amps. It is a Bolin pump, low usage, expensive, quiet and long working life.

 

Colin, starting at the back boiler there is a 22mm outflow pipe running as far as the calorifier which is inside the cabin against the engine room bulkhead. At this point it is connected to the return pipe and goes back to the boiler after passing through the pump. It does not run through the calorifier.

 

Of this comes two radiators using 22x22x15 tees on the flow side and the same on the return side, exactly as you would find in a normal two pipe domestic central heating system. The calorifier is fitted in the same way using 22x22x15 tees on flow and return.

 

I had trouble with airlocks but this has been cured.

 

Normal radiator valves are fitted to both rads, i.e. control and balance. Your post seems to have answered the question in that I should use the calorifier as the return. I do have this right, don't I.

 

Richard

[Big COL]

Richard

 

Yes you do. Please let us know the end result.

[timboharticus]

15mm sounds a bit stingy to me.

 

Get 22mm+ to calorifier and use as return.

If problem turn off rads.