GAS BOTTLE FREEZE

[John Orentas]

I am surprised more people have not done this already, the conversion on cars is not particularly involved or expensive. There is a taxi company near me that runs all it's cars on LPG and they also set up the facilities for doing the conversions. They claim that the cars are more economical to run and engines last longer.

 

People have been converting stacker trucks for donkeys years.

[DHutch]

I am surprised more people have not done this already, the conversion on cars is not particularly involved or expensive. There is a taxi company near me that runs all it's cars on LPG and they also set up the facilities for doing the conversions. They claim that the cars are more economical to run and engines last longer.

- People have been converting stacker trucks for donkeys years.

Yeah, although bottled gas is quite a bit more costly than untaxed diesal, and you dont need a high performace sporty feeling engine in a narrowboat!

- Also i beleave one of the reasons stackers are gas is for emisions reasons, with them runing on gass its easier to clean them up to be cok for indoor work. (not sure how much truth there is in this?)

- Also, ive never understood how they get away with having the bottles on there side, i though this was serverly frowed apon on grounds of saftey, not to mention the fact that half the time you'd be drawing off liquid gas.

 

 

Daniel

Edited December 1, 2005 by dhutch

[Paul Chapman]

The regulation about having a vent for spilt gas at the bottom of the locker and that it should be completly sealed from the accomodation I am aware of.

 

My reckoning makes it cheaper to run on gas than on normaly taxed diesel which is bound to come, and quite rightly so. Wheres my tin hat. However I have been known to get my arithmetic wrong before and no doubt some will say my prioritys! ok ok AND the spelling.

 

One of my reasons for wanting to use gas is that it is environmentaly better than anything else available at the moment.

 

Interesting comment about the bottles on their side, I had not thought of that. It does seem odd because one can only fill the bottles 80% to leave space for gassification at the top.

[Guest]

The regulation about having a vent for spilt gas at the bottom of the locker and that it should be completly sealed from the accomodation I am aware of.

 

My reckoning makes it cheaper to run on gas than on normaly taxed diesel which is bound to come, and quite rightly so. Wheres my tin hat. However I have been known to get my arithmetic wrong before and no doubt some will say my prioritys! ok ok AND the spelling.

 

One of my reasons for wanting to use gas is that it is environmentaly better than anything else available at the moment.

 

Interesting comment about the bottles on their side, I had not thought of that. It does seem odd because one can only fill the bottles 80% to leave space for gassification at the top.

A factory where I used to work had a propane stacker truck. The propane bottle as I remember was of a special type with a white arrow on the end. The bottle had to be placed on its side with the arrow pointing downwards (i think it was down). What the significance was I am not sure, but it was different to the bottles we use on our NB.

[DHutch]

A factory where I used to work had a propane stacker truck.

- The propane bottle as I remember was of a special type with a white arrow on the end. The bottle had to be placed on its side with the arrow pointing downwards.

Ah right, well i guess you could just have a tube from the 'top' to the side that was placed upwards of the bottle, problem solved?

[gorbo]

Ah right, well i guess you could just have a tube from the 'top' to the side that was placed upwards of the bottle, problem solved?

yes that is correct stacker LPG bottle are for stacker use only and there take offs are on one side hence the arrow

[DHutch]

yes that is correct stacker LPG bottle are for stacker use only and there take offs are on one side hence the arrow

Still a tiny bit weird, why done they just stand it upright like everyone else....?

 

Although I guess if you doing it as an aftermarket convertion, it might be the easyest way.

 

 

Daniel

[Big COL]

Still a tiny bit weird, why done they just stand it upright like everyone else....?

 

Although I guess if you doing it as an aftermarket convertion, it might be the easyest way.

Daniel

 

Dan

 

I think you will find a forklift truck draws liquid from the bottle and boils it off at the regulator, which has a water jacket off of the engine. This overcomes the problem of the bottle freezing.

[DHutch]

I think you will find a forklift truck draws liquid from the bottle and boils it off at the regulator, which has a water jacket off of the engine. This overcomes the problem of the bottle freezing.

Ah, that could work too.

[ChrisPy]

Do I infer from this correctly that you want to drive the engine with propane?

 

If so, have you costed it out? Seems a rather expensive way to me!

 

See BSS info on gas lockers. The main thing is that they must have vents to the outside at the lowest point, although I think they can go below the water line if they are filled to the water line at the lowest point. But you must have that vent, and allow for the boat to rise and fall in the water.

so you end up with a free flooding locker with a vertical slot vent. no problem. but the guys at Calor won't be too pleased ?!

[Paul Chapman]

But nobody has an idea about my initial query as to wether one can store the bottles partly imersed in water!

 

Any offers?

 

Paul

[Speedwell]

But nobody has an idea about my initial query as to wether one can store the bottles partly imersed in water!

The bottles are meant to be stored outdoors in the wet. Most gas lockers (mine anyway) are pretty wet, so I can't imagine storing part immersed will actually harm the bottles. Whether or not you could design a wet locker that would satisfy a boat surveyer may be a different problem.

Lastly, people use diesel because of its low fire risk compared to petrol. LPG with its pressurised storage strikes me as being a worse fire risk than petrol.

Arthur

[Paul Chapman]

As to the risk I do not see that more bottles are more of a risk than a less bottles. Either gas should not be used at all on a boat or it is safe. Assuming the whole system is correctly designd, instaled and maintaind, also with a gas sensor it must be foolproof.

 

I take your point about the inspector, I think I have to talk to one before I lower anything below the waterline.

 

Thanks, Paul.

[Speedwell]

As to the risk I do not see that more bottles are more of a risk than a less bottles. Either gas should not be used at all on a boat or it is safe. Assuming the whole system is correctly designd, instaled and maintaind, also with a gas sensor it must be foolproof.

Nothing is "SAFE", it's all a matter of acceptable risk. I agree that the number of bottles should not significantly increase the risk but engines shake about a lot and pipe fractures are not all that uncommon. With diesel we get a messy collection of diesel in the engine tray but with gas you could blow up before you realise that it's happening. There may be very sophisticated sensors and shut down devices available to prevent this but that's beyond my knowledge.

If you haven't already checked, the BSS book (2002 version) requires compliance with Liquified Petroleum Gas Asociation (LPGA) Code of practice 18 and must not be a dual fuel system. No specific details are given.

Arthur

[John Orentas]

As to the risk I do not see that more bottles are more of a risk than a less bottles. Either gas should not be used at all on a boat or it is safe. Assuming the whole system is correctly designd, instaled and maintaind, also with a gas sensor it must be foolproof.

 

I take your point about the inspector, I think I have to talk to one before I lower anything below the waterline.

 

Thanks, Paul.

 

 

Hi Paul.

 

There is a great deal of information contained in the Red Book. It was common at one time for boats to have gas lockers low down in the bow and below the waterline, though existing boats with that arrangement are permitted new boats must have the bottles above the waterline with suitable drainage.

 

Are you thinking of an LPG engine installation, the thread has become rather confused. If so I believe all the regulations regarding normal gas installations will still apply, of course you will need to address the subject of pipe sizes especially if you plan a gas locker in the bow area, and with space for more than the conventional two bottles.

 

I would initially advise you to send off for a Red Book. Inspectors are only empowered to enforce the book but some wrongly feel they can interpret things.

 

Then consult 'The Boat Safety Scheme' at Watford re. LPG for narrowboat propulsion.

[Paul Chapman]

I have a copy of the Code of Practice 18, bloody expesive it was to.

 

The main thing that I took on board from it is that it is a good idea to have the gas system above water line. Indeed the gas bottles must be above water line with an exit for spilt gas.

 

As I am having an electric motor to power my boat and she will have a midships wheelhouse it will be possable to have the generator in its own compartment under the whellhouse, like the gas locker, with a gas spill hole over the side. Through the side.

 

I think also that it would be a good idea to run the main feed pipe on the outside of the boat. Adequetly protected of course.

 

Paul.

[Paul Chapman]

Yes sorry about the confused thread my fault for picking up on the flooded gas locker on page 2.

 

I do intend to have a gas fired generator, ideally I would like a fuel cell, there are already boats out there with them I belive, I remember being at Reading Marine a few years ago when they were building one, I think the first on the cut.

 

Should I know about the little red book.? Presumably not Chairman Mao's he went by foot.

 

Boat Saftey Scheme at Watford? I try both on Google and see what I come up with but thanks for the info I shall follow it up.

 

Paul.

[John Orentas]

I have a copy of the Code of Practice 18, bloody expesive it was to.

 

The main thing that I took on board from it is that it is a good idea to have the gas system above water line. Indeed the gas bottles must be above water line with an exit for spilt gas.

 

As I am having an electric motor to power my boat and she will have a midships wheelhouse it will be possable to have the generator in its own compartment under the whellhouse, like the gas locker, with a gas spill hole over the side. Through the side.

 

I think also that it would be a good idea to run the main feed pipe on the outside of the boat. Adequetly protected of course.

 

Paul.

[Speedwell]

Paul

You seem to have it all sorted, one can't argue with the regs, so I hope works out as well as you hope.

Arthur

[Paul Chapman]

Idiot I am I have a link to the Boat Saftey Scheme already! Thanks anyway.

 

Paul.

[John Orentas]

Idiot I am I have a link to the Boat Safety Scheme already! Thanks anyway.

 

Paul.

 

 

Paul.

 

Don't like the idea of the gas pipe outside the boat, better inside below the gunnel.

[Paul Chapman]

Arthur far from having it 'all sorted' I have a pile of problems needing solutions. And it's very interesting in areas about which I have very little knowledge, if any at all. Very interesting though.

 

Paul.

[DHutch]

Should I know about the little red book.?

- Boat Saftey Scheme at Watford?

The "red book" is the BoatSafteySceme Book, which you can Download in PDF, or get posted to you for free.

 

LINKY

 

 

 

Daniel

[ChrisPy]

- I know for fact that non of the coal fired boats have to be have a BSS,

why not? they certainly have to have RCD if they were constructed after 1998 and are put on the market within 5 years of manufacture.

Edited December 4, 2005 by chris polley

[ChrisPy]

. It was common at one time for boats to have gas lockers low down in the bow and below the waterline, though existing boats with that arrangement are permitted new boats must have the bottles above the waterline with suitable drainage.

 

 

the book seems to allow it on new boats as well, ref 7.3.3 sketch D. ....or am I missing something, John?