Lister LH 150 hydraulic reversing gear questions

[Steveo0750]

Hello. I have a twin screw boat with two Lister 3 cylinder engines, the ones with the rounded rocker covers I dont know the No. would be gratfull if someone could let me know though. They have the Lister LH 150 hydraulic reversing gear boxes. One was slipping in forward but ok in reverse and neutral. I got a Lister man to lookat it and I think he said the clutch plate/ring was worn.Apparently two plates get pushed together by the hydraulic pressuer and the rough surfaces are not as rough as they should be, so thinner oil will move out of the friction area easier. It is apparently adjusted as much as it can be and he sugested using a thinner oil in it. He reconed the same as the engine has would help.

I know a new plate/ring is the answer but it has helped to use thinner oil for now. Will this be ok?

Hope someone can answer my question!

Cheers Steveo

Edited April 18, 2009 by Steveo0750

[Tony Brooks]

Hello. I have a twin screw boat with two Lister 3 cylinder engines, the ones with the rounded rocker covers I dont know the No. would be gratfull if someone could let me know though. They have the Lister LH 150 hydraulic reversing gear boxes. One was slipping but got a Lister man to lookat it and he said the clutch plate was worn. It is apparently adjusted as much as it can be, but he sugested using a thinner oil in it. He reconed the same as the engine has would help.

I know a new plate is the answer but it has helped to use thinner oil for now. Will this be ok?

Hope someone can answer my question!

Cheers Steveo

 

 

Sound implausible to me and in any case those boxes default into ahead with no oil pressure, so ahead gear has nothing to do with oil pressure.

 

If its slipping in astern then it is not a clutch plate but a brake band - in fact ahead uses a cone clutch so even that does not have a clutch plate as such.

 

I suggest you talk to Marine Engine Services at Uxbridge for some first class advice - in fact I think one of them post here so you may get a more definitive answer.

[onthecut]

Hello. I have a twin screw boat with two Lister 3 cylinder engines, the ones with the rounded rocker covers I dont know the No. would be gratfull if someone could let me know though. They have the Lister LH 150 hydraulic reversing gear boxes. One was slipping in forward but ok in reverse and neutral. I got a Lister man to lookat it and I think he said the clutch plate/ring was worn.Apparently two plates get pushed together by the hydraulic pressuer and the rough surfaces are not as rough as they should be, so thinner oil will move out of the friction area easier. It is apparently adjusted as much as it can be and he sugested using a thinner oil in it. He reconed the same as the engine has would help.

I know a new plate/ring is the answer but it has helped to use thinner oil for now. Will this be ok?

Hope someone can answer my question!

Cheers Steveo

 

Hi Steveo.

 

Must agree with Tony --- not the world's greatest diagnosis ! As he says, the hydraulic pressure in the box only gives you neutral and reverse, so will work in ahead with no pressure at all. As a matter of interest, you haven't put any oil additives into the box ? Can do nasty things to the friction material over time. Have you checked the selector cable is moving the arm fully to the ahead position ? If not, try adjusting it, in case you are getting a partial application of neutral. After that, I very much suspect you will be looking at the box out and stripped --- start saving now !

 

Mike.

[Steveo0750]

Hello mike, I'll gowith that. As long as I throttle up steady it seems ok and does not slip. I think i'll drain the oil and use a sligtly thinner hydraulic oil and see how it does. Cheers.

[Tony Brooks]

Hello mike, I'll gowith that. As long as I throttle up steady it seems ok and does not slip. I think i'll drain the oil and use a sligtly thinner hydraulic oil and see how it does. Cheers.

 

 

I do not wish to scare you but, from long memory, the cone friction material is riveted onto the metal cone and if the material is worn down to the rivets (remember car brake shoes and drums?) the rivets may well score the female cone and that is part of the reverse gear drum.

 

If that happens it is likely to jamb in ahead if it is rebuilt without changing the drum.

 

It is also possible that the ahead springs have lost tension, especially if the box has been overheated.

 

Thinner oil will not help the above but if you want to accept the advice of a chap who thinks the box has clutch plates in it rather than people with experience be my guest. Its not our money at risk!

[onthecut]

I do not wish to scare you but, from long memory, the cone friction material is riveted onto the metal cone and if the material is worn down to the rivets (remember car brake shoes and drums?) the rivets may well score the female cone and that is part of the reverse gear drum.

 

If that happens it is likely to jamb in ahead if it is rebuilt without changing the drum.

 

It is also possible that the ahead springs have lost tension, especially if the box has been overheated.

 

Thinner oil will not help the above but if you want to accept the advice of a chap who thinks the box has clutch plates in it rather than people with experience be my guest. Its not our money at risk!

 

Hi Tony.

 

We really must stop cheering Steveo up so much !!!

 

Mike.

 

Steveo --

 

If you don't have the handbook handy, Lister specify sae 80 oil for engine room temps up to 30 deg C and sae 90 for over that. Capacity 2 pints. Note -- that's not 'EP' spec oil.

Just to tie up the gloomy options, it's also possible, if it's been slipping for some time that the clutch cone has become glazed (overheats, lining resins come to the surface). No way back from that other than replacement.

 

Mike.

Edited April 19, 2009 by onthecut

[Priston]

I do not wish to scare you but, from long memory, the cone friction material is riveted onto the metal cone and if the material is worn down to the rivets (remember car brake shoes and drums?) the rivets may well score the female cone and that is part of the reverse gear drum.

 

If that happens it is likely to jamb in ahead if it is rebuilt without changing the drum.

 

It is also possible that the ahead springs have lost tension, especially if the box has been overheated.

 

Thinner oil will not help the above but if you want to accept the advice of a chap who thinks the box has clutch plates in it rather than people with experience be my guest. Its not our money at risk!

The cone clutch is a BONDED assembly, so no fear of rivet scoring. Tollerance on cone is tight so a worn cone will cause lack of REVERSE gear. Brake band holds drum whilst reverse engaged. Most likely loss of power in forward is oil problems, have you checked level? Have you changed oild recently?

[Steveo0750]

Hello Priston. I had sae 80/90 in there but am trying the 15/40 as suggested. This has not been in long, but has made an improvment. When I am just setting off I find it best to engage forward then go to neutral a couple times then im on me way. Also I think the pitch on my props may be a bit much. One engine is fine though. My friend has 2big garderners in his boat and they usethe same oil in the engine and hydraulic gearbox(Gardinia). This is why I had no worrys with what the engineer said. I feel better about the rivit thing. Does this mean that it will go on and not dammage anything else? Cheers.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Steveo0750

[Tony Brooks]

Hello Priston. I had sea 80/90 in there but am trying the 15/40 as suggested. This has not been in long, but has made an improvment. When I am just setting off I find it best to engage forward then go to neutral a couple times then im on me way. Also I think the pitch on my props may be a bit much. One engine is fine though. My friend has 2big garderners in his boat and they usethe same oil in the engine and hydraulic gearbox(Gardinia). This is why I had no worrys with what the engineer said. I feel better about the rivit thing. Does this mean that it will go on and not dammage anything else? Cheers.

 

 

Two points. I am happy to accept the cone is now bonded because it is a long time ago when I worked on them but I do not accept the cone clutch has anything to do with reverse gear. If the cone was engaged when the brake band came on the box would lock up, being in both ahead and reverse at the same time. If the box is slipping in ahead its the adjustment, clutch or springs indicated as faulty. The engineer says it has run out of adjustment so that can be ruled out and that indicates a worn cone.

 

The shaft with the cone splined onto it has to run the opposite way to the input shaft when in reverse. The drum is clamped so it can not revolve so if the ahead clutch was engaged the brake band would be clamping the drum and the via the cone clutch, the output shaft.

 

As a matter of interest the clearance on the ahead adjuster gets smaller as the cone wears so one way of further testing is to remove the lock nut from the ahead adjuster. That will give you a nut's worth of extra adjustment. If you still have clearance on the adjuster then the cone could be glazed, the female worn or worn ahead springs.

 

Thinner oil can not influence any of the above and even if you filled it with grease I think the pressure from the ahead springs would still push the grease away from the faces (do not fill it with grease). I can not compress the whole set of ahead springs by hand or foot.

 

Just because another engine uses thinner oil in its gearbox does not mean that is correct for all boxes - especially if you are trying to cover up a fault. PRM boxes use engine oil (say 15W40), The Velvet drives I know and Hurth use automatic transmission fluid. Hurth is a subsidiary of the German ZF company and my Spanish ZF box uses SAE 30 engine oil and multigrade like the PRM uses is not allowed. Lister said SAE80 for a reason so it seems a bit odd for an individual to gainsay them.

 

The Lister box uses what is now a comparatively rare gear-train in that it uses sun and planet gears surrounded by a drum, rather than gears far more like those in car manual gearboxes and this construction gives rise to certain lubrication problems when compared with more modern designs so I wish you the best of long term luck if you use something other than the recommended oil. (I accept modern oils probably have a far higher film strength than those available when the Lister box was designed).

 

Finally I would point out that a while ago we had an internet post (either on here or UK.rec.waterways) where a bod announced he was setting up as an engineer offering high quality service. Within a couple of weeks he was back asking about seized up Lister LH150 gearboxes - he had no idea the things defaulted into ahead with the engine stopped or no oil pressure. In the big scheme of things these are comparatively rare boxes now and may engineers may never have stripped one or even understand them so please, by all means try the thinner oil but do not expect a long term solution. In doing so you might be causing even more expense when you are forced into new parts.

 

The boxes are normally easy to get off as long as you take great care you do not damage the oil pump drive but a bit harder to put back on because of that oil pump drive gear (its dead easy to damage). You may have to lift the back of the engine so the box clears the shaft. Before it gets too deep into the season get the box off and to someone who really knows them - I have already suggested Marine Engine Services of Uxbridge. They may be able to give you a more local contact if you are a long way from London.