Jump to content

nicknorman

PatronDonate to Canal World
  • Posts

    21,864
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    119

Posts posted by nicknorman

  1. 11 hours ago, dmr said:

     

    … if you are too dependant on third part technology and that chip goes obsolete at the worse possible moment then you are in a spot of bother??

     


    You made me look! The device I used was NXP. It is obsolete. But the first other device I found was Infineon. Same package, same pin out, same principles, same LIN interface standards. Seems to be an industry standard sort of device.

    Detail differences in LIN device address and control registers scaling, so only some very minor changes associated with the LIN interface needed to utilise the new device. ST do one very similar  same pinout. That is how you make a smart alternator regulator for £50 (component cost).
    I suppose the only concern might be that when ICE vehicles finally cease to exist, so will a need for ECU controlled alternator controllers. But I’ll probably be dead by then!

  2. 29 minutes ago, IanD said:

    And maybe it'll commend you for protecting it against pollution from uppity youngsters and keeping it as a safe space for a declining number of the elderly, muttering into their beards about how it used to be better in the old days... 😉

    Well anyway, one good thing to come out of this sorry episode is that you seem to have acquired a friend. There’s a first time for everything I guess.

  3. 9 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

    Probably three out of three until the message sinks in to be fair. 😉.
     

    I try and leave it alone but then another newbie joins and then immediately leaves thanks to the attitudes of the ‘‘forum elders’ 🙄. I like to think of myself as a crusader helping to remind them that it’s just a forum and would benefit from more contributors and opinions, not less. 👍


    I’m sure forum history will commend you for doing the job of head prefect with vigour and vim and keeping us all in order. Many congratulations!

  4. 9 hours ago, cheesegas said:

    Yep, let's make this the Zeus thread! Looking forward to hearing your findings on it too.

     

     

    I'm still confused as to why I can't find the IC, although it's almost certainly an off the shelf microcontroller rather than an FPGA. Maybe to make reverse engineering more difficult? As far as I know, only ARM based controllers have built in CAN so maybe they made it discrete to bring down costs. There's no through hole resistors, the only things are the through hole electrolytics. They're part of the MOSFET driver circuit rather than the CAN. 

     

    Arco do make/distribute/rebadge their own line of alternators too, but oddly I couldn't find any already set up for external regulation like Balmar sell, all internal reg. Maybe the whole idea is to make the Zeus as universal as possible? Even the Iskra external brush packs sold by Beta have both brush wires brought out so it can be set up for either pos or neg regulation.

     

    The weatherproofing is important I think as this is an American product, in the land of no narrowboats! The engine bay of a cruiser can be a wet place, engine hatches not sealing fully, splashing from bilge water etc. I intend to fit this under the cruiser stern and unfortunately it'll get wet whenever the boards are lifted after it rains. I'd have expected better for the RJ45, it's a totally non ruggedised connector otherwise; even the manual says to install with the connectors down despite the IP67 rating. Standard non-ruggedised RJ45s don't last long even just in a moist environment.

     


     

    I used a PIC 18F26K83 which has built in CAN as well as a load of other peripherals. Cost a couple of quid. It’s only an 8 bit micro but perfectly adequate for the job.

     

    I agree about the RJ45. I used them myself but the controller is in the engine room so it’s warm and dry. Yes certainly weatherproofing is important for their target market but my point was that less than perfect weatherproofing isn’t much of a negative point for most canal boat applications - what is needed is tolerance of high relative humidity.

    4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

    Ah I see, thanks. Yes so it's basically doing several things to configure the alternator to make it suitable for lithium batteries, rather than doing what "conventional" external alternator regulators attempt to do - increase the voltage and get more charge into LA batteries.

    Yes.

    9 hours ago, dmr said:

     

    But you were doing a one-off. Isn't it a bit like writing software? Its good (but time consuming) to do as much low level stuff in house as you can, if you are too dependant on third part technology and that chip goes obsolete at the worse possible moment then you are in a spot of bother??

     


    Certainly component obsolescence is a constant worry, but it applies to just about anything fancier than a resistor! The chip I used is obsolete now, but there are other new ones. One would just have to change the driver software to adapt to a different device, 95% of the product would be unaffected.

  5. 4 hours ago, blackrose said:

    So the Zeus must be the next generation of high tech alternator controller? What does it do that older external controllers don't and what's the function of the Bluetooth connectivity? Do you look at your phone to check voltage and amps on a Zeus app while you're going down the canal or is it just for displaying historical data? Or is there some other function? Sorry I'm not familiar with these devices. 


    It is primarily relevant to lithium batteries. You need something “smart” to avoid mechanical overloading at low rpm, to avoid overheating the alternator and to go to float when the battery is full to avoid overcharging it.

    The primary benefit of the Bluetooth link is for configuring the settings using the Zeus App.

  6. 17 minutes ago, dmr said:

     

    I'm still not convinced about needing an alternator control chip, I reckon Adverc did it with just a transistor and an op amp and it worked ok. Not sure about the op-amp as they shave the numbers off. Plus, most alternator regulators are just a few trannies anyway (oops, musn't say that anym more).

     

    The Zeus was developed at breakneck speed so maybe it was decided to stick with a micro-controller that they knew and accept the slight overhead of an external CAN controller?  

    I can't see the through hole resistors are you sure?

     

    I agree that supporting only P type alternators would make sense, but it might cost a few sales for people doing a quick Adverc upgrade?

    I think P type are standard in USA but N are more common in europe?

    I intend to stick with the N arrangement but disable the internal regulator. This should keep the ignition light working.....or do I need to think harder about this?

     

    ==============================================

     

    I note that the Zeus needs fuses in its power supply lines, and the field if its N, but not in the battery positive sense, or alternator (positive) shunt if fitted.

    This suggests that the fuses are there to protect the Zeus itself rather than the cables, and this forum always says fuses are to protect cables?

     

    Should the wire to the alternator W be fused ? 😀


    Ah yes you are right about the resistors. I blame the slightly blurry pic!

     

    An alternator reg chip gives you:

    Speed input (from the W) to allow reduced field current at low rpm and to avoid wasting field current when the engine is not running (and indeed to allow the thing to be permanently powered up but sleeping. Think 6 diode machine).

    Just processing the W input with its wide range of voltages is a bit of a deal.

    It gives you field current measurement, voltage measurement, ability to specify a field current limit, control over field current ramp rates/ soft start, adjustable regulated voltage, the actual control MOSFET and its driver circuitry.

     

    Most of which you can’t get with just a mosfet and an opamp!

     

    And all for under a tenner even in small quantities. I just don’t understand why you would go to the time and expense of reinventing all that.

     

     

  7. 12 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

    And yet the time spent bothering to type a reply says otherwise. 😉

    If you say so.

    1 hour ago, IanD said:

    That's exactly the kind of attitude that discourages newbies from posting on CWDF... 😞


    You are confused. I want to discourage newbies like that from posting on CWDF. So I’ll accept the praise, thank you.

  8. 3 hours ago, cheesegas said:

    So my Zeus arrived a few days ago via a distributor, and whilst it'll be a while until I can hook it up to the alternator, here's a first look. I powered it up on 12v first to make sure it all fires up! As a background, this is now one of three external alternator regulators with system integration on the market, but it's squarely aimed at competing with the Wakespeed especially as the marketing makes a big deal about it coming with the wiring looms! The user interface also promises to be much better as it's purely Bluetooth and an app, rather than Putty or uploading text files like with the Wakespeed.

     

    Forum uploader seems to be rotating all the pictures at random no matter what I do to them and their metadata so please try and ignore that...

     

    Opening the box, it's packaged very nicely in a large single wall cardboard box - regulator on top in high density foam, looms under it in their own boxes. There's no paper manual in there but there's a QR code which takes you to the manual and the app. 

    image.jpeg.e5e67b77c0c25a877979a3eeb2ed2b53.jpeg

     

     

    The case is a nicely finished extruded aluminium affair, with all connectors on one end cap and the large Bluetooth antenna on the other. The antenna is a standard plastic folding thing with an SMA connector. The Zeus has an IP67 rating, but this SMA connector is only IP67 when mated so you'll need to leave it attached, just in case you're concerned about it getting in the way after configuring it. The antenna is an IP67 version with a silicone ring inside.

     

    Connectors on the bottom are mostly good news - the battery harness is a TE Connectivity Ampseal which is internally sealed, and the alternator harness is also a TE Connectivity product. Both are sealed well and are of very high quality.

     

    However...the CANbus RJ45 is a Kinsun which, like most connectors of this type, is only IP68 when mated with the appropriate connector. If you plug a standard RJ45 into this, it's prone to let in moisture and corrode itself eventually, I work on LED display modules outdoors and this is common with RJ45s! You need the matching mating part of the connector which is not provided in the box; Kinsun part number 3351L and I could not find a UK stockist for it. Additionally, this type of connector needs to be put on the cable before the RJ45 end is crimped on. Seems like an oversight, making an IP67 rated device but making it difficult to maintain the rating when connected up! It would have been nice to see something like a Neutrik Ethercon here, which is available all around the world, or to simply put in the box the other half of the Kinsun. 

    IMG_5427.JPG.c488a4f25ddcb588267eb7044a286700.JPG

     

    Internally, all of the connectors are properly sealed including the screwholes, and the RJ45 is internally potted to ensure no water can get through. Both end caps have substantial rubber seals, and the screws go into pre-tapped threads rather than being self tappers. There's also a dab of silicone on the back of the antenna's SMA connector to seal that.

     

    Before getting into the electronics side of it and staying with the mechanical/waterproofing theme - the PCB is a heavily made multi layer board with a full groundplane, which is used for a heatsink. Everything is populated on the top, the bottom is bare. However, it does not have a conformal coating which is odd for a product aimed at the marine market. The five electrolytics are good Japanese quality, rated at 105 degrees C and have tall 15mm cans. I would have liked to see a splooge of epoxy under them though, as they're vulnerable to vibration damage, especially as it'll be mounted close to the engine. The only mechanical attachment is via the through-hole solder joints; fine for something like a computer motherboard but not great for this application. 

    IMG_5428.JPG.2e05f1fca2c883f6beff7194cef5bd5b.JPG

     

    Getting onto the electronics, I could not find an FPGA or system-on-chip microcontroller on here at all, which is very very odd! I can only think that it's fully encapsulated under the Bluetooth module, but there are only few traces going to it on the back of the board. It may be a 3 or more layer board though.

     

    Going from left to right we have:

    MCP2510 CANbus controller. This has an SPI interface, so whatever microcontroller is used will likely have SPI natively

    MCP2551 CAN transceiver. This will sit between the 2510 and the connector to form a complete solution. There is NMEA2k as well as CANBUS but only one transceiver, so there's some duplexing happening here.

    Fanstel BT840e 2.4ghz Bluetooth module. The antenna is also a Fanstel product designed to work with this module, an ANT060. It's a complete integrated RF solution with SPI and I2C; I expect the microcontroller will use SPI as the I2C pins don't appear to be connected

    Under the blue/white cable is 4 generic ICs which don't appear to have datasheets, I expect they are analog to digital converters.

    SUM70040E MOSFET, rated at 120A drain current. Very over-spec'd. Nice! Unsure what the single one is for, the two at the top right will be for controlling the alternator field in positive and negative configuration.

    MP9486A 1A DC-DC buck converter controller. 4.5v-100v input range and 170uA quiescent current, the Zeus should have a very low standby draw. This is probably used to derive 3.3v or 5v for the internal ICs from the 12v-48v input from the battery.

    LTC7001 MOSFET driver and two more SUM70040E MOSFETs, purpose mentioned earlier.

     

    Overall, I think this is a very well made product with good attention paid to waterproofing, the only exception being the RJ45 port. As of now, it's impossible to get the mating part of the connector in the UK easily, so it will be a weak point. However, due to the well-designed connector, it will not allow moisture into the unit. A conformal coating would have been nice, and I wonder why it was not done. There's a lot of test points on the board so it may be to speed up quality control, as the coating makes it impossible to use the test points unless they're masked.

     

    If it's going in the engine bay, I'd treat it as IP62 when mounted with the ports facing down as water will collect in both the RJ45 socket and plug if there's a cable in it. Best to get it high up away from spray, or perhaps make a little shield for the RJ45.

     

    Mechanically it's generally good with all the ports fixed to the case rather than just the PCB, but some epoxy goo under the inductor and electrolytics wouldn't go amiss. RJ45 aside, the connectors are very high spec and unlikely to ever cause any trouble, and all the looms are made extremely well. 

     

    In the box, a laminated paper wiring diagram showing what colour wires go where would have been a good idea as it's difficult to keep on referring to your phone/laptop in the engine bay, but the PDF manual is excellent and has the wiring colours on two pages which is easy to print out as a reference. 

     

     

     

    IMG_5431.JPG

    image.jpeg


    Thanks for that, very interesting. Fascinating to see how others have done it but to be honest I’m fairly surprised that they have made it so complicated. Why not just use an off the shelf alternator controller chip and a micro controller with built in CAN controller. No need for lumping great electrolytics. And why have they used through-hole resistors, no-one does that any more! The board does look sparsely populated but perhaps they needed a fairly big board for MOSFET heat dissipation.

     

    To be fair their design does work with + and - controlled alternators but OTOH if you are going to do surgery on the alternator to cut out the regulator, it’s not really much more effort to reconnect one of the brushes to negative and thus only need a positive regulator.

     

    Obviously weather protection is your thing but IMO for a typical narrowboat installation I don’t think significantly waterproofed case is necessary. Even in a cruiser stern installation, provided you keep it away from drips etc I think it is only dampness that needs to be protected against and so the lack of a conformal coating does seem very surprising.

     

    Anyway, the proof of the pudding etc so it will be interesting to hear how you get on with it.

  9. 39 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

    And the prize for most self-important tool of the year goes to……. 😂

     

    As I’ve said so many times,  it’s just a forum. nobody makes you reply to anyone. Do it with good grace and generosity or don’t bother at all. You’re not saving lives.

     

    No but the point is should he ever want any more advice (which I agree seems unlikely) then he won’t be getting it from me. And I suspect not from the other usual suspects.
     

    If you want people to help you, you don’t go around calling them “condescending” when they have just been doing their best to be helpful with very limited information. On the other hand, as seems likely, if he just enjoys winding people up or is so sociopathic that he doesn’t care, nothing is lost. But if he doesn’t realise how he came across, it seems only fair to point that out before he falls out with more people. He can take it or leave it.

     

    Oh and while I’m on, I’ll mention that the importance of your opinion of me is somewhere between insignificant and miniscule. If I have time later I’ll get my microscope out and see if I can spot it.

  10. 10 hours ago, Manxcat54 said:

    Sorry if my posts offended anyone, all I needed was a little help with something I was unsure of, but what I ended up with was a very strange feeling of not really being welcome, into some kind of closed club, and some what I found quite condescending replies, maybe it is just me? I hope that in the future I can visit the forum with peace of mind in the hope that I get simple sensible answers when required, hope you all have a good day. Malc 


    Your posts didn’t offend me, but they did irritate me a bit. You started off with a very general question which gave the impression you didn’t know much. I spent some time going over the basics in my replies. Yes basics, but it still takes time and effort to write the words. Then it seemed you had intentionally tricked us by not mentioning that you were going to go for Lithium batteries. And then shortly after asking for help and me spending some time giving it, you changed your mind and decided you didn’t want any help. And now we are condescending apparently. All of which leads me to believe that you are quite an annoying and high maintenance person on whom I shall certainly not be wasting any more time.

    • Greenie 2
  11. Yes I fogot to mention battery monitoring, which is silly because it is something I am always recommending! Personally these days I would go for the BMV712 because the bluetooth link to the phone is so useful.

     

    I disagree somewhat with Tony on the advantages of alternator add-ons. I used to share his view until I installed a precisely controlled alternator controller (this was as a precursor to fitting Lithium batteries, but I still had the lead acids for a while). I found that the modern digital regulation did make much more difference than I expected. Tony is correct to say that a battery will only take so much current, but in practice the regulation of a conventional built in alternator regulator is very poor in that there is long period where the maximum current it can supply reduces, long before the charging voltage reaches the regulated value of 14.4v or whatever. It really does make a big difference during the mid-charging phase, although it is of course true that the lengthy tapering off of charge current to reach 100% state of charge once the voltage has reached 14.4v, still has to be endured.

    • Greenie 1
  12. 46 minutes ago, Manxcat54 said:

    MtB

     

    Thanks I already have an understanding of the charging systems and the stages of charge, a lot came from my motorcycle knowledge and using optimate chargers etc. What I would dearly like to know is, what would be the best way to keep my batteries in shape without getting too complex, I see all Vitron equipment and I just feel it is overkill, someone told me to look at the Mastervolt Alpha Pro, which seems straightforward enough, I am all for the simple life, and a believer in the fact that too much technology can mean more to go wrong, so has anyone used any systems that have proven to work well. Thanks for your input (no Pun)

    If you just have lead acid batteries and one alternator then there is not much complexity that can be created! Just use a VSR as previously mentioned, to connect the engine and battery banks together when charging is taking place. Using a VSR is slightly better than a split charge relay because the latter is associated with charging from the alternator only whereas a VSR keeps everything charged from a battery charger or solar.

     

    So looking at other sources of charging: Solar is very popular these days, and for good reason. Prices are down and efficiency is up. But it depends on your type of usage, which I don't think you've mentioned. Certainly if you are a live aboard it would be crazy to not have as much solar as you can reasonably fit on the roof (whilst still allowing access to lock ladders etc). On the other hand if you tend to cruise for long days every day, it is not worth it.

     

    But then again, for 3 months of the winter solar does virtually nothing so you need another means of charging and this of course could be your boat engine with the VSR already mentioned. But another way is to use a generator (a quiet one please!) and battery charger. And the battery charger does also allow you to charge from shore power if you are in a marina or some moorings where there are electric bollards.

     

    If you are going to be running the engine a lot just to charge the batteries, it might make sense to use some sort of external alternator controller, since the built-in regulators suffer from current tailing off long before the regulated voltage is reached, and this slows charging. Adverc used to be the popular one, not sure if that is still sold. Or a Sterling one. The Alpha Pro is a good regulator but very expensive and I'm not sure it is worth it for lead acid batteries. Plus you need to do a certain amount of surgery on the alternator to access the field circuit directly.

    • Greenie 1
  13. 29 minutes ago, MtB said:

     

    Not necessarily. People have died from the CO coming off a cooker grill. Admittedly they closed the grill door while cooking in contravention of the Instructions For Use, but the CO involved cannot have been trivial. 

     


    Yes but that was not due to CO from a flame touching a metal pan etc. That was from severe incomplete combustion caused by lack of oxygen due to closing the drill door. No doubt had they been able to see it the flame would have been yellow and sooty. My “very small” relates to the CO produced when an otherwise good flame plays on a saucepan etc.

     

    Certainly, any time there is a “bad flame” (yellow and sooty) there is plenty of CO being emitted.

  14. 3 hours ago, MtB said:

     

    And another. The cooker.

     

    Anything involving flame chilling, e.g. flames playing on metal surfaces such as gas rings heating kettles, or grills, chucks out CO. So don't be surprised if the CO monitor shows a result when you're cooking. 

     


    This is of course correct, but the amounts involved are very small. Our CO detector is within about 5 feet of the hob but it has never come off 0 during cooking. Nor even when I bring it closer. Presumably with the CO being mixed with hot air and hot CO2, it rises quickly to the top of the cabin and then out through a mushroom vent.

  15. 22 minutes ago, Reeferman said:

    Good day to you.

     

    I posted a wanted this morning and now want to delete it and all the snarky comments from your group.

     

     

    Please advise.


    You poor thing, have you been triggered? I can recommend a good councillor.
    But then again, since your easiest option is simply not to visit this site again, the fact that you have started a new thread is a clear indication that in fact you want attention and reasons to feel aggrieved. We are quite good at giving that - for free! You are welcome.

    28 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

    You cannot delete. A member of admin might do? Ask a mod.

     

    Well let's hope they decide not to. If everyone who started a thread had the option to have it all deleted when they didn't like the way it went, that would be a major discouragement for bothering to reply at all.

    • Greenie 1
  16. 19 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

    I'm sure you know all this, being an electronic genius, however I thought I would share it here anyway. Whilst investigating my optimum tail current termination valuation vs absorbrion voltage, I came across this quote from Rod:

     

     

     

    From this page on tinterweb

     

    https://nordkyndesign.com/charging-marine-lithium-battery-banks/


    Yes it’s a good point. I got the Li battery in the early winter and so far, what with snow on the panel, the panel blowing over etc etc, the solar has never got even close to fully charging the battery. But in summer, it will do. Which is a good reason for getting an MPPT controller!

     

    It’s actually also a good point in relation to charging with an alternator which is intrinsically fairly rippley. In our case the Combi input capacitors act to smooth out the ripples a lot, but a system with just an alternator and no large capacitors in the system, is going to have plenty of ripple. At some point I might take my ‘scope down to the boat and check out the ripple with and without the Combi in circuit. Probably the ripple won’t be that bad at lower SoC due to the very low internal resistance of the Li, but it will be interesting  see the ripple as the batteries approach 100% and the current is tapering.

  17. Our CO detector always reads zero. Well it should do. A couple of years ago it started showing a reading whenever the stove door was opened to refuel etc - and it is not close to the stove.

     

    To cut a long story short I removed the flue pipe because it was choked up with a very hard concrete-like deposit and at one point near the stove, the clear diameter was only about an inch. Cleared it all out with a long chisel etc and since then it has been fine with always 0 on the CO detector.

     

    So probably your flue is severely restricted. Personally I disagree about removing the baffle plate, the plate is there for a reason and helps improve the efficiency of the stove, but you do need to clean out the space above the baffle plate from time to time.

    2 minutes ago, Timx said:

    Thanks, but have done that, and swept chimney twice.

    Thanks, that throat plate is already removed.

    If it is anything like our flue was, sweeping it is ineffective because the deposits are rock hard.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.