Mike C

The yard at Barton had limited land space and by boat building inside 'Viktoria' the boat(s) could be moved next to the road where the crane could come in and launch them. Roger went on to build a floating drydock which did away with the crane, this is the dock that is now modified and in use at Brinklow.

Pete why RY131? - The records I have refer to these as the CL131 Mike

One more from that trip: By Lorenz's yard? No that is Paul Lorenz's yard (Bedford Basin at leigh) 'Anna' was built inside the hold of L&L Ainscoughs boat 'Viktoria' at Roger's yard which was just north of the swing aqueduct at Barton, Eccles.

Only the small matter or the Recreational Craft Directive to contend with if it’s going to be used as a private vessel!

I cant see whats wrong with the Gray on the cabin sides when I saw France 10 days ago.

Yes that is my understanding

I have seen scorching on a number of craft over quite a number of years. My experiences are that: 1. It makes no readily decipherable difference whether the lens is up or down. On one of the incidents that I examined a few years ago for insurers the lens was removed after the boat fire and used to create a focal point either way up in order to prove that the boat builder had not been blatantly negligent as was being suggested. 2. It is easier to create a focal point with sufficient intensity to burn combustibles with a polished lens used as a deadlight, but it is also possible, though a little harder to do so, with an unpolished or non-dressed cast glass deadlight. I have seen both a thin layer of white wash, (or white undercoat) applied on the inner cabin side of the dead light and also adhesive privacy film, as sold in hardware stores for bathroom windows. On the examples that were examined no effective focal point could be created in midsummer sunlight. My own, in a big Northwich motor with an unpolished original deadlight, fitted flat side in the cabin and has a thin layer of white undercoat on it, no decipherable light loss and no scorching since but there were signs of scorching from the summer of 2006 before the paint was applied.

Barge Skipper Wanted We have an opportunity for a skipper on a 320 tone motor barge operating in the Mersey estuary and River Weaver on a regular short freight traffic. The job involves: • Working as skipper for the Ship Canal and river estuary passages to load. • Working as a ‘stevedore’ for the three mornings while the cargo is discharged between passages to load. This involves the removal of the timber hatch boards and the sweeping out of the hold where some of the cargo has been left behind by the grab. The pay is on a ‘per tonne carried’ basis but as a guide it roughly works out at an average of about £9/hr on about 28 hrs worked per week, The tonnages are set to increase over the next 12 months and as pay is a share of the tonnage rate the crew pay will also increase accordingly with an hours increase. With the job comes the opportunity of accommodation on the barge, (not shared). This is basic and functional but very usable. The skipper is responsible for day to day craft maintained and welfare. Some aspects of the role require hard graft and others require usual barge handling skills. Ideally we are looking for a Skipper with an Inland Waterways Commercial Boat Master License waters A to C ( tidal) for the Mersey Estuary or a better national qualification. If you have any questions or if you are interested in applying then please send some form of CV covering relevant experience to lighterage@tiscali.co.uk

No ……… its no secret but they are not at the museum other than when I’m passing through or visiting and so aren’t really relevant to the threat about whether or not the museum should be mocked and berated or supported. If you are meaning which craft have had what done to them then scroll down the page on the link posted previously and again below: link

Are they? which ones do you know of that are scheduled to be 'destroyed'? I am not sure how 'viable to repair' can actually be quantified or defined and to attempt to is in danger of opening up the debate about the definitions of 'preserve, restore and rebuild' but I think you are right in that historically the maintaiance that the museum has been able to deliver has not kept in front of the deterioration of a number of craft - as the owner amd part owner of serveral historic craft of my own, some still in comercial use its a costly battle Im uncomfortably familier with! I am not intending to patronise you, so if you feel patronised then please accept this public apology. I may be guilty of being jaded by the continual misinformation that talks down and mocks the museum and the efforts that are being made, very much of which is delivered by volunteers. If you would like to visit and be shown whats going on then tell me when you can come up and I'll either show you what I know myself, or put you intouch with someone who can show you more and who may be able to give you the figures that you are attaching importance to. The real work is happening on the bank and in the water, and not on this forum. The museum and BMS will welcome all offers of assiatnce and enquires about what they are doing - try them, better still visit them or join them, if nothing else watch their web site http://www.boatmuseumsociety.org.uk/tlc-project.html Mike

http://www.boatmuseumsociety.org.uk/tlc-project.html More is occuring than is shown, if you contact BMS directly I am sure that they will give you a better up to date account of which boats are having what done to them.

I suspect they may have visited the site more recently than you as they are certainly better informed about the current situation and the works that are ongoing or being implemented.

??? Yes they are, go and take a look. or use the link – (sorry- I don’t know haw to make it a ‘clicky’) http://nwm.org.uk/ellesmere/HeritageBoatyard.html The museum is a stakeholder and partner and the funding secured is related to the museum visitor numbers and the museum as a facility open to the general public.

Financed by what if not visitors and grants, that are themselves related to visitor numbers?

Mark – Its not a closed archive it’s a Museum, A major part of its funding comes from local educational visits, it would be daft to have no Joshers at all. I don’t need to see them necessarily….I’m in the enviable position to be paid to look at quite a few, but I agree that three is quite a lot, however as you know too they are all actually quite different. Even so that aspect of the museum isn’t necessarily there to satisfy yours or my needs (or Reubens!!)– but yes I do take your point that the collection is unnecessarily heavily weighted that way, but they were given/loaned to them and they are relatively cheap to keep, there pretty boats and the general public and one off or occasional visitors are shown something that appeals to them and that easily demonstrates it is about much more than ‘Rosie and Jim’.

"new cafe, gift shop" - Provides a profit to help pay for the running of the museum and the collection. Developed with a grant which was specifically non-transferable into boat maintenance. "interactive exhibits" - Paid for with a grant specifically non-transferable into boat maintenance, keeps the museum in line with others as a vistor attraction therfore = visitors which inturn equals revenue.

It would be churlish of me to suggest that the fact that the Wey and Arun is not fully navigable is an “absolute disgrace, someone should do something about that” This is not how I feel and I take my hat off to you for what you are doing, as such I’m even more surprised by the comments you make and they way you have delivered them. When I looked at the Wey and Arun web site just now I did not see the photos of the trees in the bed of the canal and feel the need to berate the society for not having removed them and allowing them to continue to grow and damage the puddle still further. after all to remove them "hardly takes any effort at all!" !! As a previous crew of ‘M&F’ – a pair of boats I know well, you will be even more aware of the costs and time involved in keeping timber craft such as this in good operational condition which is made even more difficult when funding issues are brought into the fray and all restoration and repairs are required to be historically accurate and not, as in the case of M&F as hotel boats, what is best to deliver the craft into a commercially viable passenger carrier. I look forward to being able to boat along the Wey and Arun in future years and support all the good things you and others have done and feel no need to condemn you for the areas of the line of the canal which are continuing to deteriorate as yet untouched but which I’m sure feature somewhere in your plans for the future. I look forward to again walking along bits of the old line of the canal sometime soon.

It is happening and has happened to a number of craft, its costly and time consuming and in some cases requires the craft to be ashore, which is a difficulty with many of these craft even in the structural condition they were in when they arrived at the museum. When you visit the museum next you will be able to see what is and has been done for yourself and what is actually going on, and not what the two dimensional photos from others suggest is not happening, - This is a case where actually the photos are not the full picture. Please don’t be under an illusion that any of these timber craft were delivered to the museum in a structural condition very much better than they are in now, in the main they were not however superficially bright some may have appeared. We were involved in caring for several of the wide timber boats in the 1970’s when the museum site sill hadn’t been secured or decided upon. It was a continual task to keep the craft afloat. At that time common belief was that keeping them afloat was the best way of preserving them, it is now known not necessarily to be so and that where the craft is struggling to remain afloat it is often better preserved (deteriorates further at a slower rate?) by being submerged. If you look at the very familiar scenario seen over the years, and particular in the 60’s but more 70’s and very early 80’s, and even still occasionally to the present day where; A private individual has a timber craft, wide or narrow, its shot, it requires 10’s or 100’s of thousands of pounds spending on it. The owner can not afford to do this so one of four things usually happens, either it is abandoned and BW remove and dispose of it, at one time in a bonfire but now into skips. Or the owner disposes of it in a bonfire themselves or it is taken on by some one with the money energy and time to return it back to a maintainable condition or a full restoration. Or, as in the case of these craft it is donated to the museum. With this latter situation the museum in now being lambasted on this forum and elsewhere for the fact that it to doesn’t have the recourses to restore the craft. Should it have refused to take the liability on and allowed the craft to be broken up? I can not agree with you more, it is a tragedy that the craft are not all in better condition and it would be excellent if they were all fully restored and pristine, especially if that included the retention of the unique features that the craft has acquired over years rather than the ‘as delivered from the builder’ restoration. But I believe you are misplaced to be so ready to decide that blame is in order and where it lies as I am very shore that were you to have gathered more information on the matter first you would have seen that what your poorly informed delivery of blame and responsibility from a distance is in danger of doing is demoralising the very people who are trying to make happen what you want to see. I agree with Pluto, contact your MP and the distributors of funding, it is a yet to be fully reversed policy that provides some funding available for craft refurbishment where there is significant historical importance but funding to maintain them is not so available. Support the museum and others in their quest to see this conundrum solved and then many more things we all seem agreed upon are much more achievable.

Whilst I share the passion and compassion shown for the boats at the museum, there is a lot of words like ‘Shocked’ and ‘Appalled’ used in this thread. None of these boats deteriorated overnight. They have been attended to by very many paid and unpaid hours over many years but with few exceptions they have been continually slipping backwards for a very long time. I am really pleased that there are many folk associated with and around the museum that are actually delivering efforts to keep these boats there for others to moan about and criticise. There are massive political issues associated with museum funding generally, whatever they are exhibiting which in no small part is associated with gate and visitor numbers. Shame on those that offer criticism but have not visited Ellesmere Port in recent times. I am thrilled by the resent developments and enthused efforts that have seen a direction change in the fortunes of the collection and would invite those that can, to assist by joining the Boat Museum Society and delivering volunteer time, and those that can not put in time can always just deliver financial support, even if that is simply visiting the place occasionally and encouraging others to do so also. The BMS also has a voice on the management committee of The Boat Museum and so structured criticism can and does influence future policy. I am not directly related to the changes that have occurred but applaud them and those who have facilitated them and my condemnation is for those that have, and are still doing nothing. I believe that criticism on a forum such as this from the comfort of the warm office or home is rather too easy and likely to do little for the craft and much more for the self-esteem of those posting them. Best regards to all - Mike

There is another vacancy to work on this craft, again with accommodation aboard if needed. Its a similar arrangement- please contact me if you are interested. Mike - mc@michaelcarter.co.uk

Yes I am already chatting with hNBOC and Sue. ‘Speedwheel’ – what boat do you have? Thanks for your thoughts everyone – Keep them coming.

Yes that is an option - but Lindsey isn’t that deep. The exercise is bigger than just one boat on one piece of water on one day. Its an opportunity to discuss the wider issues and explain the problems with operators who travel more widely as well as experiencing/demonstrating them on the day.

The third copy is kept by the Examiner or Surveyor - NOT the BSS office.

The commercial Boat Operators Association (CBOA –Visit Website) has made some good progress in inviting BWB management to come aboard craft and see them being used to understand the issues with deep and loaded boats that are trying to use the waterways throughout the country. There has been a request for a boat to take a BWB manager from Norbury to Market Drayton in May as they complete a section inspection. CBOA has no loaded boat movements expected for that time. If anyone with a deep drafted historic boat is around in that area and is interested in cooperating with BWB to help them see what is good and the bad about moving big boats about then please drop me a line. mc@michaelcarter.co.uk – This is not an invite to an opportunity for BWB bashing! Quite the reverse this is an invite to assist in an exercise that has worked well elsewhere and gives BWB a better understanding of what works and what doesn’t. Many thanks

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