GRPCruiserman

I had a farm mooring for 15 years or so, only cost £100 per year including parking and water. Bit muddy in the winter though, but there are still a few around, some dearer with better facilities, I know of one that used to be £30 a month including post keeping and parking but it was a bit of a walk to the car. You have to pay BW a 'mooring permit' but that's afixed charge usually at half of the nearest BW mooring so is pretty reasonable. You get a cracking mooring in the country, pick one with good views, you get to see everyone going by, and it's pretty cheap and you never have to move if you don't want to, water and elsan permitting of course. If you get iced in, no-one will hassle you, no bidding wars, I loved it and never hanckered after a marina. If you're living on board, then marinas can be good, there's one up here with wifi internet, electric, water, and you can pay quarterly. I also know of a boatyard which you can pay monthly with electric but they're getting pretty full these days. Just look around, you'll be surprised what you can find, at least up here in Lancashire, anyway.

When I've bought a boat, I've gone along with the cash, got given the keys (and more recently the BSC etc), and driven away!! Last one I sold, he gave me the cash and drove away. Never any hassle. Never spent more than £1450 personally or £3500 (my wife) on a boat though, and never dealt with a charity, so I suppose it's a bit different. The boat I had the most fun with cost me £100, and about £300 to restore it. Enjoyed that boat more than ANY other. I had to take my own trailer to tow it away though!! It has struck me over the years that the larger (and therefore more expensive) the boat is, the more hassle it is and therefore the more red tape, high running costs, and generally less relaxing life becomes. If a boat has cost me about 4-500 pounds all in and some guy in a shiney narrow boat happens to nudge it and scrape off some of the paint I applied, then I can just get out my brush and shrug me shoulders. When the BW guy at a staircase somewhere in Yorkshire opened the wrong paddle and pushed 40 tons of narrow boat on to my Yeoman using as a fender (there were some glass cracking sounds) apart from checking for leaks afterwards it wasn't too big a deal. It's like parking in a car park. My car cost me £460 so if some idiot opens there door too hard then the scratch just adds to the others already there. As long as it continues to run OK and the sunroof works, then all well and good, although it did cost me £225 to get it through the MOT this time which I thought was quite a lot, whereas if I'd spent £20000 then my paintwork would be a bit more important. I have always been more worried when I've spent more time and money on a boat, although my current sailing dinghy which it now seems was made in the 1930s, not the 1940s/50s as originally thought, would upset me a lot more if anything happened to it. But then again I've had it since I was 11 years old (31 years ago) and is pretty irreplacable. I suppose if I was selling something for 10s of thousands of pounds then a solictor may be a cionsideration, after all, my flat was only £31000 in 1993, and I had a solicitor for that, and you can hardly come along with £31000 odd in cash, can you!! Just to put it in to perspective, when I bought my house I had a clause that forced completion within 28 days from viewing or the deal fell through. That really gets the solicitors moving quickly, and it was completed within the 28 days, so anyone considering a narrow boat purchase may wish to consider a similar clause or penalty costs could be imposed. That'd get them moving, beleive me.

Answer: Norman 20, I used to position myself in the lock to avoid the 'water spouts', but I do remember having to lift the fenders on to the gunwhale, whereas the 'V' type section of the topsides of the hul used to allow the fenders to sneak in below the gunwhales in most locks. Some friends of ours had a 20foot Callumcraft with screwed on corner fenders at the stern and when we got to Middlewich, they had to saw one off to get in the lock!! They were high enough to clear that narrow aqueduct just before the Big Lock, but too wide to get in the narrow locks. Once 'sawn off' they got all the way to Llangollen with no problems.

Has this changed? I understood that fact that unless you fit a new cooker, any existing cooker did not need flame failure devices on the rings? If what you say is true then there are a lot of boats around with illegal cookers. My last few boats passed many BSC with the old cookers in? Is this why it's almost impossible to buy a Flavel Vanessa any more as the last ones only had the flame failure on the oven?

IF they have a licence displayed, then it'll have the name and index number on it? If they were on The Lancaster the warden would have spotted it on his daily patrol. Perhaps the warden scheme SHOULD operate everywhere.

I hate to say this, but I think I would have moved on to another mooring, I hate things like this but value my health and my family's health and property more highly than any point made. A few years ago I would have confronted anyone, in fact was quite proactive in this, but I am calmer now and I think better for it. I'd find a quiet spot some distance away but would still call the 'Freephone Canals' number (if it still exists) as I have on a few occations, in fact once when some kids were opening ALL the paddles on the locks I was moored below, but they'd gone by the time BW arrived, and I made all the paddles secure again as soon as the kids had gone. I'm one for a quiet life now, but it doesn't make it right. Oh and a point of fact, the canals DO belong to all of us, we employ BW as a nationalised organisation to maintain and control the canal system for us as taxpayers. However, the impression BW has given to us all in recent years is muddies by their 'businesslike' attitude which has both encouraged and hastened the continuing drop in grant in aid. If BW had continued as it was, it would continue to be funded as it was and attracted the restoration funding it used to instead of pricing people like me off the water. This does not mean, however, that we should not obey BW's rules. We employ the Traffic Police Force in a similar way, but we must stick to 30mph in a built up area. The difference is that the people who decided that speed limit were to be 30mph were elected by us and from us, unlike BW which again is now indistinguishable from any other leisure business or theme park management company. Or am i just bitter that the cost of a year's licence is now too high for me? Day licences, here we come.

You could well be right, I've never sailed one!! I must admit the principles of water ballast and drop keel on a boat so big doesn't really inspire confidence, but you seem to get a bit of everything, so with the possibilty of mooring on a tidal (ie cheap) mooring and being able to go pretty quick when necessary, but also being able to tow it and therefore change location easily and low repair costs without haul out etc, and still be able to go on the canals as well on a short term licence seemed appealing. I used to have a Valiant 18 sailing cruiser with fixed bilge keels which sialed superbly for a twin keeler, and was very forgiving, plus could dry out vertically, and was easility towable with the Volco 240 2.1 litre I had at the time, but actually recovering from the water was a nightmare as you needed a slipway that went to a depth of three foot but wasn't too stepp for the car to manage to pull it out!! It was also too deep for the canal, and the 4 hp engine I had on it was useless against the tide, but it sailed a lot faster so that wasn't really a problem, in fact I used to use the engine AND sails together to punch a fast tide. It slept four though which was good for an 18 foot boat. The Norman 20 I had was the best overall all rounder, but you loose the sailing ability, so if I was buying just to use on the canal, then the Shetland I think was the best value, cheap on licence etc but still not too expensive. I've not read any reviews on the Macgregor, it just seemed a good idea to have all in one, perhaps a case of 'Jack of all Trades' from what you have said. My main point was to re-enforce what a previous posted had said, ie for under £20000 you can get a cracker of a GRP boat for whatever you want, whereas for a shiney narrowboat, you have to multiply by 3 or 4, but I suppose mooring and licence are now 3 or 4 times the cost of tidal use so if you can afford one, you can afford the other. I'll stick to seas and lakes for now.

Went yesterday, ewally enjoyed it apart from the three hour drive in each direction (only used to take two hours, traffic's got a LOT worse). Not been fpr a few years and it's grown out of all proportion!! Only just got to see everything by 6!! It you're only in to narrow boats, I think it's dies the death to be honest, only a few in one side of the boat hall, and very little in the way of rosies and castles etc. Got the impression the bespoke narrow boat building industry has died the death in the last few years, just a few mass producers left!! From my personal point of view, I feel a lot more positive, there were a LOT of affordable GRP cruisers there as VERY reasonable prices, in fact there was a Shetland 4 plus 2, bit like a Norman 22 in layout, for about £19000, and you don't get much narrow boat for that. Plenty of more seagoing craft too, the Macgregor 26 sailing cruiser with a big engine would be what I'd buy at £19000 with the engine and trailer. Loads of room, ability to sail (no fuel costs) or use the engine when the wind drops, and even go on the canal if you don't put the mast up and you're not bothered about the narrow canals. Cracking value to me. There was even a Fletcher 14 foot speed boat almost identical to one my parents had when I was about 10 years old, must be the same mould, now THAT took me back. Biggest high poimt for me was sitting in a brand new Land Rover Defender 110, better than ANY of the plastic 4x4s you see and are popular, and once you've bought one you'd NEVER EVER have to buy another car, they last forever!! I want one!! My wife and 5 year old loved playing in the canoes, and there is a large tent hall now for tenties among you. We went to get a new cooker for our caravan, but there were very few 'bits' stalls, all arranged around the outside of the halls. If you want satellite TV you had a plethora of stalls selling the equipment at what I thought were very high prices (seem a lot cheaper on the internet from reputable dealers). I wanted to buy a Flavel Vanessa two burners and a grill (we've got the oven!!) but no-where were they to be found. Towsure have a 'Superstore' type stall and there are a few of the other big names, but very little chandlery and nothing was cheap. We spent about £2 all day and have come home with enough free pens to last about 10 years, and with the possibility of winning about 100000 prizes (probably going on the same number of mailing lists!!). From a canal point of view, I am VERY happy as it looks like GRP does have a future and there were GRP boats for every price range. With some clever marketing it would be so easy to bring the canals back to life by promoting their sales to people for use on the canals. However, British Waterways did not appear to have a stall, at least I didn't see it (apologies if I missed it) and with their current policy of pricing all but the very high earners off the canals, I think it'll continue to be shiney narrow boats until the point where the canals die the death due to the lack on new users being able to afford to use them. British Waterways obviously don't feel that the most important leisure show of the year (you note I said 'leisure show' not 'canal show' as people who attend canal events already know about canals as a rule!!) is somewhere to promote their activities. I am being to mourn the now imminent loss of our canal system to the masses, but see joy in the fact that the boating industry as a whole is returning to GRP and promoting boating in a vibrant and thriving way where it is still affordable to all, ie the sea, lakes, and other waterways of our country.

Aye, spending in the area to put the mooring fees up. Hope we don't loose the slipway, I've used it before now, it's the only one on that stretch, the pub charged a fiver. Don't think we could really, as it is the pub's I think, not BW's.

The trouble is if you are travelling from The Lancaster (or places nearer) and need a shower on your way on holiday (as I and my wife always did at this point) it's a bit 'the wrong way' just to get one, and if you're heading south the next shower is just before Lymm. Plus it's good to stay overnight where you shower, and it's a lovely spot at the top of the Rufford arm, especially just the other side of the first swing bridge towards Ring'O'Bells and Wigan, well within walking distance of the shower, whereas Burscough centre is not nearly as pleasant. Personally I would have preffered the facility at the top of the locks to be refurbished and for Burscough centre to be closed. Perhaps there is a financial motive, and we will see the facility sold off and turned in to a tea shop or something. (It happened at Bingley five rise, but at least the sanitary facility and shower was retained.)

The term 'Use by' is what needs definining. If you own a boat and use it, and as part of that use you occasionally let other people drive it or even sleep on it, or sit on your settee within it, then as that personal use, your licence permits it. If you lend it to someone as you may always have done as part of your use of that boat, ie it gives you pleasure to lend it to your friend, then surely that's part of your use of the boat as well. If you are to apply stricter use of the term 'personal use by' then when the boat is moored up and you are at work, then it is NOT in use, and therefore not licenced. That means every single boat that is moored up on it's own mooring is unlicenced as soon as you step off it, and if you decide to work the lock whilst your spouse drives the boat through, then again you have an unlicenced boat. Also if you empty your toilet leaving your spouse aboard, then the situation is the same. This is a really silly statement that would not stand up if challenged in court and I believe is just to stop people operating businesses on private licences, but certainly could have been worded much better. I cant see them taking someone to court under this clause. I've said it before, a boat is a boat and licences should cost £xxx per foot per month, times 12 for yearly with say a 10% discount, with no restrictions, no minimum lengths, no 'bandings', just so much a month per foot. That way those with the financial means to buy bigger boats can pay the appropriate licence, and those of us on limited means could actually afford to keep a boat on the canal, and not have to trail it about to use it. No penalties for early cancellation, just so much a month per foot (or probably one third of a metre these days!!). Personally I think this should apply to moorings too, for similar reasons. If this scheme were brought in, and we take the average size of a boat to be say 40 feet long and who could pay £40 per month, then a 70 footer owner would pay £70 and I would pay £10 for my ten foot day boat. I would actually pay that, as I could afford it, as I am sure many others could, and suddenly BW would have many more customers with small boats and still fetch in the big bucks from the shiney narrowboaters. I also believe this would encourage the production of smaller boats again, say 20 footers for £20 a month licences. I am sure BW would receive more revenue for having all these extra customers instead of driving us low incomers off the waterways. It would be simple and you'd know before upgrading your boat exactlly how much it would cost to keep. Sorry, I've gone off topic now!! If they had no restrictions as to the actual purpose of the boat, ie pleasure, busines, residential, etc, then why would that be an issue? A boat still uses the same wear and tear on the banks and the locks. You don't see Sales Rep man paying a higher road tax than retired man who goes to the shops twice a week and to collect his pension from the post office on a Thursday paying any different road tax? Perhaps we should be campaigning that if the tax on Red Deisel is brought in, and the current tax on petrol boats continues, then that tax should be fed back to the waterways, so as to bring in more revenue and be fairer to those who use the canal more or less. How this would be measured, I don't know, but there are counters on the cut to Llangollen and elsewhere, so who knows??

The problem is that Marinas seldom let you use their showers, and the shower at Burscough top lock was the bst and only one on that pound in the area. I have used it a lot.

That would be a cracking series.

Seems wierd, my Dad has a septic tank and he only pays about £100 when it needs 'servicing'. Don't know where they get £20000 from, unless that's the lock keepers' wages??

I have a similar problem, but in my home which is not a boat. It is a flat. I only have about 500 square feet, about the same as a 70 foot narrow boat, but as an upstairs two bedroom flat with my own front door at ground level and my own staircase. I have a lot of space outside and love the area plus my 5 year old is settled at school so don't really want to move (except on to a boat but the wife won't have that!!). As I have recently added to the family with a daughter now 10 months old, we have a need for extra beroom space with no prospect of expansion. I bought the place about 15 years ago and to move to a three bedroom would double my mortgage so that is a non-starter and as a flat I cannot build an extension!! Also the loft, although I have access for storage, is too small for conversion. I therefore have two children, one boy and one girl, and myself and my wife to accomodate in a two bedroom flat. My solution: a dinette in the lounge/dining room. We currently have a small dining table and chairs in the space and we have a touring caravan which has an appropriately sized dinette. My intension is to replicate the caravan dinette in the lounge where the dining table is to the exact same measurements and use the caravan cushions as extra seating by day and double bed for myself and my wife at night. When we want to use the caravan, the cushions would return to the caravan for use. It would mean making the bed each night, but the bedding could be stored underneath as it is in the caravan, and would then provide the children with a bedroom each. We slept on a dinette in the last boat we had, the Dawncraft 25 and also in the caravan, and all is well when we do, so I don't see any problems. My beleif is that GRP Cruisers are much better designed generally when it comes to use of space and storage, and I am backed up in this by many of my friends who have changed from GRP to Narrow Boats and found less storage for nick nacks. In my 16 foot Yeoman it accomodated the then three of use for 2 weeks or so with no problems, and the Dawncraft always had several empty lockers even on two or two and a half week trips, and we always took all non perishable food for the whole fortnight right from the start to avoid shopping. I'd definately have a dinette on any narrow boat I had, and bench seats cruiser style as well, both for storage and sleeping accomodation. If the Dinette works in my flat, I may continue the theme throughout the whole room, as storage would be great, and with plenty pf varnish, it would have a 'boaty' feel about it. Built in furniture - the way forward.

Don't forget we've lost the only shower on that pound, it's a long way by boat in time terms to 'nip' down to Rufford, and the next nearest shower is on The Bridgewater near Lymm (not BW). Perhaps BW want Shiney Narrowboaters who have showers on their boats, or perhaps this is a swing towards leaving GRP cruiser owners in a mucky state with a view to showing their appearance in a bad light, ie as scruffy individuals. There are also potential cruiser owners who may be put off if they can't have a regular shower. Perhaps it's too late for an objection to the marina to be put in unless non marina owners are allowed to use the facilities. At Glasson Marina (BW owned) and Galgate Marina (BW owned) and White Bear Marina (BW owned) you can only use the showers if you moor there, although at Galgate there is a 'Public' BW key shower nearby, and there are still many GRP boats on the Burscough pound. Perhaps BW are trying to get rid of them. Burscough top lock were always the cleanest anywhere, has the lock keeper been made redundant now? Perhaps if they got rid of him that's why they cant provide the facility any more. It must be the only industry where you pay more and expect diminishing facilities apart from perhaps motoring. As for the car park at Appley Bridge, that's active discouragement of use of the canal by walkers, fishermen, and the gates must have cost a few hundred pounds, that would have maintained the sanitary station for a while.

Clhoe, used to live with Scott, some years ago, I've met her once too!! My wife says either Mark out of 'Take That' or 'Richard Hammond' off 'Top Gear' as he'd take her on a speed boat really fast, and my 5 year old says one of our friends who actually has a boat!!

Amy Nuttall who used to be in Emmerdale. She's gorgeous.

Just used it on Saturday to download the second part of 'Three Men in another Boat'. I saw it, but my father missed it so stuck it on the Lappy and took it round for him to watch. Also used the Channel 4 one to watch the first episode of 'Shameless' on the new series which I also missed. Don't like the channel 4 one though as you can't specify where the download goes and it just fills up yourmain hard drive instead of going on my storage drive. The BBC iplayer you can store where you want. Had no problem downloading it on this Vista machine then watching it on the XP Laptop running Windows XP Media Centre edition though, although it had to connect to the internet to obtain the licence, it played no problem.

Went for a walk yesterday around the top lock at Burscough (Rufford Arm) as I have mny happy memories of going on holiday after Ribble Link campaign cruises in the 1990s and passing through there. It was usually the first shower after the weekend in Preston Dock and was always immaculately kept by the lock keeper, the cleanest I'd ever seen. He was always so friendly and sometimes helped with the locks, travelling between on his motorbike. I got there yesterday, and they are now closed!! All three doors, shower, toilet, and toilet emptying no longer available, only the water point still there. Everything padlocked with a pathetic apology letter telling you to use the other sanitary station which has no shower. (and it's half an hour away in the wrong direction if you're away on holiday). Prior to going to Burscough, myself and my family fancied eating our butties on the car park at Appley Bridge near Wigan overlooking the canal, somewhere again we'd not been for a while, but again, it's been closed!! We werw forced to park down the little private road opposite where the houses are. The gates fitted and locked to the car park must have cost BW a fair bit to fit for no apparent reason. Perhaps they don't want people to visit the canal there any more. They are asking for more money, but removing showers and closing car parks, spending MORE money to fit gates in order to do so. Glad again I got rid of the boat, with the new marina opening up along this length soon, you'd think facilities would improve not get worse. Shame Eugene doesn't work at BW any more or I'd complain to him, HE got things done. If I complained now, I'd just get some jobsworth pen pusher who didn't even know what a boat wa coming up with some lame excuse. The locks looked a bit worse than usual as well so far as maintainence goes, could do with a coat of paint. Pay more get less, what a great advert for Britain's canal system.

I love the Bridgewater too, cheaper than BW for licences too!!

You'd be fine in the North East, HUGE locks and much draft, apart from the Calder and Hebble and Leeds Liverpool. Also I think the Stainforth and Keadby is shorter too. There used to be a Valiant 18 sailing cruiser (without the mast!) on The Lancaster Canal and I used to have one of these bilge keeled craft (thats two keels, fixed, one eac side on the hull to allow the boat to dry out in tidal moorings without tipping over) which drew about 2 and a half foot. I saw him moored at Carnforth once but I bet he had mooring issues especially as the keels are near the sides of the boat. They were (and still are) a cracking sailing boat, only 18 foot but sleeping full four adults and mine always handled well under sail or on the 4 hp outboard I had on her. I think as long as you plan in advance, and don't forget turning round as well, even consulting with local BW offices, I think you'll be OK here and there, I wouldn't expect to get to Llangollen or up The Chesterfield though!! At least you'll have plenty of internal space when you do find a mooring.

On the GRP cruisers I had, I had two 85Ah batteries which the outboard put a bit in here and there. With frugal use, you could manage a fortnight on these with the blacka and white TV, and this dropped to 10 days with the colour one later. That's with water pumping, summer use of lights, CB Radio, Amateur Radio, Marine VHF etc. I would start the fortnight holiday with them both fully charged at home with the mains charger. When the lights went dim and the TV stopped working it was time to swap to the other battery, and on extended cruises, it was necessary to stop at the odd boat yard and pay them the £1 or so they usually charge to recharge the first, flat battery. If it got to the point where both batteries went flat, it was an early night with slow pumped water, and using the recoil start in the morning to start the engine instead of the electric start. Dead simple, £23 a battery every three years when they wore out, and nothing really to worry about except missing 'The Bill' if I timed it wrong. You know when it's flat when things stop working!!

No-one can stop you going to sea, it is your right, they can only advise you.