Rob@BSSOffice

Matchpoint005 post #4 Absolutely!!!!!!! b0atman #5 prime objective is to get to safety - also correct there to assist escape and put down a very, very small fire if safe and feasible. B0atman & Matchpoint #7&8 Electrical fires, solid fuel stoves, candles, galley accidents, exhaust & overheating things, petrol, DIY and hot-work, smoking, bullseyes - LPG is in explosion category David Mack #9 - Dead right. that one was smoulder to crisp in 30mins. Some narrowboats don't last that long. From flames give yourself less than 2 minutes to escape. By 4 mins the fire will be very serious in the area where it started. By ten minutes expect it to spread through the boat. And in the first few minutes expect the killer smoke and fumes to building up enough to knock you down - two breaths of toxic smoke could see you unconscious. Which is why - as you say the extinguisher is there to aid escape. BruceinSanity #12 - that's right. the gauge in the green is no proof it will work, but you can be sure that if the gauge is in the red it won't! Murflynn #14 - have a greenie Pete&Helen #15 - no - the key point is that there will be printed or engraved on the body a definitive statement saying "Replace by...." or "Do not use after..." - only then does servicing enter the picture in regards to pass/not passed. (warranty expiry is not taken into account in this context). HOWEVER, as Matchpoint alluded to in #4 i.e. for your sake, not the BSS, best practice would suggest regular checking and routine servicing or renewal. Rob

I've hijacked David's post from the MAIB report thread to introduce the topic. There been lots of discussion about what alarms to buy. The BSS and CoGDEM have been working the information that hopefully will give more advice. To be absolutely clear it is now possible to purchase certified alarms suitable for boats and having boat installation instructions. The latest packaging for alarms certified to BS EN 50291-2:2010 should have the details. The information on our CO web-pages about where to place CO alarms has been written with and approved by all the major manufacturers who are members of CoGDEM. But before you rush out and buy a new alarm, if you already have an Kitemarked alarm and it was tested to BS EN 50291, or BS EN 50291-1, the CoGDEM/BSS advice is to keep that alarm, test it routinely and when it needs replacing, choose a unit showing it was tested to BS EN 50291-2 and suitable for boat use. Most of the major manufacturer alarms certified and tested to BS EN 50291 are the same products/models now having gone through further testing and are certified to BS EN 50291-2. The later standard takes account of the temperature range, humidity, vibration etc encountered in the marine use. We have published the latest CoGDEM list here CO Alarms for boats advice Please, please, please remember - CO alarms are a backstop, there to help keep you alive should something go wrong. Prevention is the best possible route. These are our ten tips which if followed, should help reduce the risk of CO poisoning on your boat All the crew should know the symptoms of CO poisoning and how to react if it is suspectedInstall fuel burning appliances properly, in-line with makers directionsFollow servicing guidelines; maintenance should be routine and competent - Don't allow bodged repairs, adjustments and adaptationsAlways use appliances as per the instructions and never use cookers for space heating Don’t block ventilation – appliance fuels like gas, coal, wood, oil, paraffin, etc. need sufficient air to burn safelyDon’t bring charcoal BBQs on board, or have them near a cabin during or after use - only stone-cold charcoal is safeKeep engine fumes out of the cabin space, never use a portable generator in or near a cabinLearn about the danger signs, spot potential hazards before CO occursDeal with problems immediately, never use equipment you suspect has problemsInstall a certified CO alarm (BS EN 50291-2), test it routinely and never remove the batteriesI hope this helps everyone who had questions on this topic - and helps people find suitable CO alarms. (Before you ask - we hope to have a similar list of smoke alarms suitable for boats - it's work in progress with the smoke alarm industry)

THE owner of a canal boat was forced to leap into the cold water after the vessel went up in flames. And the dramatic incident on the Trent and Mersey Canal, off Newport Lane in Middleport, also resulted in the death of the man’s pet dog. Crews from Hanley and Sandyford were called out to the fire at 8.30am this morning. Incident commander Martin Hall, based at Sandyford, said the boat was well alight on arrival. He said: “It appears the fire was caused when the owner had been refilling an onboard generator. The fumes and petrol had created a fireball. “The owner was forced to jump into the water while the other occupant was able to get off onto the footpath. Read more: http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Man-jumped-canal-ball-canal-boat-Middlport-update/story-26026779-detail/story.html#ixzz3RldvzXH5 Generators are a popular topic on CWDF and the BSS often alerts owners to the risk from carbon monoxide poisoning from the exhaust fumes. But every so often people using generators on boats are involved in very serious fires. We have news of another sad event linked to the potential refilling of a generator. I know it will be heartbreaking for the owner to lose a pet dog, never mind their boat and belongings. At least we can be thankful that both occupants escaped. To help support our our advice to refuel (and run) portable generators ashore, the BSS has reminder stickers 'Refuel Ashore'. They are are available to stick on portable petrol tanks, spare fuel cans and portable generators. They are free, just email the BSS office directly (please don't use the PM service for this) using the email address below. And we can also provide copies of the Fire Kills / BSS booklet Fire Safety on Boats which is also available on our website www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe

...and there is is a different sort of 'sob story' in our work item trays right now. We have been contacted by a 'renter' who's accommodation turned out to be a boat with multiple 'standard' non-private boat BSS non-compliances. Other dangers and problems that developed a few days into the 'rent'. Potentially fatal hazards linked to fire and carbon monoxide poisoning are the sort of issues we are talking about. Under the radar renting can prove to be very expensive in health terms. And even if issues are discovered before more serious injury occurs, swapping contracts and finding emergency accommodation in the area where you need to be can have impacts on financial and employment health too. Be warned, under the radar renting is likely to find you with zero protection - you could be aboard a dangerous boat, with no checks and balances, no contract, no landlords gas certificate and no insurance cover. And then as Lady Muck describes, you could lose the mooring and then the boat licence, and then your home... Not so much location, location, location, but beware, beware, beware should be any renters watch words.

We are re-running the electrical training sessions this year and all examiners have been invited to renew and refresh on a revised, hopefully improved initiative. the last session ran in 2012/3 and were generally most people found them really useful and well presented. Without knowing who the individual is and I wouldn't want that done in public, we cannot speculate what his decision process was and what his inherent understanding is. However, we have an obligatory field assessment process and examiners who go through it are asked about their decisions and they are invited to raise queries and questions with our assessors. Again most examiners who have been through that quality assurance process have found it valuable. Examiners can again volunteer for field assessment and/or raise any specific concerns.

yes, it's here, so firstly thanks to Keeping Up for the subject and for the pm alert. In a busy time, I don’t always get to see all CWDF threads or post subjects, so a nudge is sometimes useful. It’s good to be able to clarify on this specific matter, but I need to remind some and for anyone newish, I am the wordsmith of the BSS, not a technical advisor, albeit having an old engineering background. So having received the pm, I sought the best help from someone who in our opinion could explain and clarify the BSS position, hopefully in a way we can all appreciate. I think Graham has done a great job. So please take this as the BSS office post on this subject. Considering the original points in this thread, we agree that you have correctly identified that the 16 and 6 ampere breakers in your consumer unit are there to provide protection for the (downstream) circuits that they supply. For the benefit of other contributors to the forum thread, this situation is simply one of ‘supply and demand’. If the boat is being supplied from a 16 ampere source ashore, that source will be protected by an RCD (for personal protection) along with a 16 ampere circuit breaker to protect the supplied circuit (in this case the shore line and the boat connected to it). In some cases, the personal protection and circuit protection may be realised in the form of a (16 ampere) rated RCBO which combines the functions of an RCD and a circuit breaker within one enclosure. In circumstances (deliberate or inadvertent), where the cumulative a.c circuit loads on the boat pull more than 16 amperes from the shore line source, a properly configured system will activate the (shore) circuit breaker to provide over-current protection for the (downstream) wiring of the shoreline and whatever is connected to it. The fact that a boat may have a huge consumer unit with multiple breakers fitted is irrelevant – the rating of the shore supply breaker will dictate. From the BSS perspective, ECP check 3.5.1 requires the Examiner to establish: ”Are all a.c and d.c fuses and miniature circuit-breakers appropriately rated, complete and in good condition ?” Furthermore, ECP check 3.5.2 requires the Examiner to confirm: “Are all fuse panels, boxes, holders and consumer units complete and in good condition?” Based on these criteria, the Examiner performs a visual check to establish compliance with the stated requirements. Bear in mind that no dismantling takes place so the Examiner is unable to establish whether the 6 ampere breaker fitted alongside the 16 ampere one in a typical ‘garage consumer unit’ is actually connected to a dedicated circuit or not. The primary purpose of the checks is to establish the condition of the components – nothing more, nothing less. The Examiner simply confirms that the stated elements are correctly rated, complete and free from signs of heat damage - which can be an indicative pre-cursor to an electrical (insulation) fire. And as always, if anyone believes an examiner has overstepped the mark, or underplayed something important – and it’s affecting your safety or your boat’s certification status, please query this with the examiner concerned. Ask him to show you the text of the check and his explanation of the decision he made. If you cannot come to a mutual understanding, please get in touch with the BSS office directly for more help. regards Rob

I turned to burning the manufactured logs when I ran out of natural logs recently. I was very sceptical as the packs are comparatively expensive compared with bulk log deliveries. However, I find that both brands I have used burn longer than same size logs and they are much, much warmer. One brand lasts longer than the other and each 'log' unit probably lasts three or more times longer than the size equivalent seasoned hardwood log. And it gives out more heat for the whole of the burn. A lot of work is going on behind the scenes on the subject of CO on boats. Keep watching the BSS space for a while. Keep in mind the potential for fire from potential tar lining the stove chimney pipe, especially if the fire starts running away.

Boaters using damp wood and logs in their stoves could be risking a triple whammy including increased costs, stove damage and carbon monoxide poisoning says the Boat Safety Scheme. It is crucial that wood fuel is kept in a dry, well-ventilated area. If not, the damp fuel will cause the stove to run at a lower temperature as the heat of the fire will be producing steam and so the stove needs much more fuel to keep the boat warm. Even worse, the steam dissolves-out flammable, acidic tars which will cling to and block up, as well as inevitably damage, the stove and its chimney. Damaged stove installations are more likely to leak combustion gases into the cabin space, and because of incomplete combustion as the fuel is damp, those gases are more likely to contain carbon monoxide (CO) – giving the vicious cycle that could see a highly toxic atmosphere in the boat. Stove flues lined with tar could also lead to a chimney fire... ...read more at http://bit.ly/woodfuelwisdom Hope it helps forumites to avoid being hit by unnecessary costs, carbon monoxide or fire. Regards Rob

Good advice about re-fuelling ashore. Here's one similar to yours that went wooooosh/roooar as opposed to BOOM if you need the soundscape, but based on the reports I have read, I think the people aboard were only seconds away from death. http://www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/news/11582204.Investigation_into_boat_blaze_near_Osney_Bridge_continues/ Smoking materials, candles or the solid fuel stove may have caused the fire. But both men caught in this GRP boat fire incident died http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/9651741.Man_dies_and_another_badly_hurt_in_boat_fire/ Storage of the spare fuel was the key issue that made a serious fire a whole lot worse in this case I have got other examples of small GRP cruisers with o/bs catching fire, some from solid fuel stoves. However, outboard motors and fatal carbon monoxide poisoning haven't yet been mentioned but it has happened to five people in the past 20 years, using the o/b to power electrical items or charge batteries. Another 6 have died from the fumes produced by their solid fuel stoves. To summarise - it can and does happen - so for the OP, advise your son to read up, understand the various risks, recognise the danger signs, act if something isn't right. Finally, install smoke and CO alarms so that if despite all his good prevention measures, if something goes wrong, he'll get out alive. It doesn't take much CO to fill a Norman cabin with enough CO to kill a human, and if fire breaks out, it's an odd on bet the boat will be an inferno in about as much time as it takes to boil an egg. Wish him well with his project. I'm sure there lots of passionate Norman owners on the interweb that will offer him advice and guidance. Rob

Ask no more - take the words from the horses mouth. Have a read of check 7.1.1 and others (page 40) onwards http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/194782/2013ecp_private%20_boats_ed3_public_final.pdf

And possibly a CO alarm, unless you already have one. While you can see and smell the smoke, its the CO as on one of the constituents of the combustion gases that you need to be very cautious about. High winds can also cause over-firing - the opposite effect - when the draw increases raising combustion temperatures to dangerous levels. Stoves can be tricky things in very windy weather and a close eye should be kept on them when lit.

The Hants TSD information makes reference to 'another Annex IIIa' by the next party. I shan't interpret it further.

As I ran out of time yesterday making the post - and as the rain has now started to hit, I want to raise the other factors seen from our incident data records. Damp wood fuel and rising and falling water levels. Damp wood fuel when burning creates steam. This process lowers the fire temperature and the stove puts out less heat. It also means the flue gases are lower temperature and as discussed on a thread near here yesterday this can cause tarring and blocking of the chimney. We also believe it causes corrosion and may lead to earlier than expected damage to stoves. And if that isn't bad enough, the poor combustion can mean higher concentrations of the poison gas, carbon monoxide in the combustion gases - and that is the last thing needed in a stove with blocked flues and blanking plates fallen off.... So our advice is to keep the wood fuel well protected from rain - but it still needs a good airflow to keep it dry. To many people the issue with rising water levels is obvious and I'm not into grandmother/egg scenarios, but looking at the numbers of reports that we find I hope it is worthwhile to remind people about mooring arrangements. In some cases pins are pulled out by the boat rising and the boat drifts off. Where there's a flow, it can mean boats drifting against bridges, weirs and other structures and there is a fair chance of the boat sinking. Blocked bridge hole can make any flooding situation worse. And with even unoccupied boats, the blue light services often get involved which could stretch our emergency resources at very busy times. Of course drifting boats can scrape along other people's pride and joy and that can lead to much unhappiness. Loose boats can also become stranded in odd places such as fields and this can be expensive as well as hugely awkward to recover the boat back to the waterway. In 'more benign' events, the boat may be moored so tight that it cannot rise with water levels and down-flooding happens through lower hull openings, or worse deck levels. Finally on the subject of rising and falling water levels, boats owners have to consider any shore supplies such as electric cables and land-based LPG cylinders. If these lines become stressed things can go wrong. Last year there was a boat fire caused by an electric shoreline going faulty when stretched by a rising water level. And it is also worth mentioning that having shoreline sockets on the boat that are truly waterproof is key. Damage housings, or having unsuitable 'inputs' can mean that any non-waterproof system system will be really tested by heavy rain, driving winds and/or freezing temperatures. I don't think there is anything new in this advice, please take it as a hopefully helpful and timely prompt to check mooring arrangements and power supply arrangements.

And if the purchaser then sells it on, that person I believe becomes liable - I think Hampshire TSD has a note about that. http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tradingstandards/tradingstandards-businessadvice/tradingstandards-business-yacht.htm NB: the information on this link is aimed at the boat selling businesses, but it has lots of very highly valuable information for anyone considering buying a boat - especially in knowing what the broker/supplier should be doing...

I'd like to back Alan up. I highly recommend asking the examiner for the appliance record. If appliances need changing or adding to, then it is possible to re-assess the ventilation provision. Only yesterday I spoke to a new owner of a refurbished boat. The BSS certification was carried out with only a diesel and 12v system aboard. If gas and solid fuel appliances had been added post-examination, the ventilation need would have changed significantly.

But if the other systems are only part-complete such as loose wires hanging down waiting for light fitments, the examination cannot be undertaken. As which point the boat may need to be lifted onto hard standing off the waterway. Also a boat that is not CE marked cannot be sold for five years. Five years is a long time, many thinks can change. A post construction assessment to become legal is expensive. We usually take a few queries a year from people needing to have post-construction assessments. http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tradingstandards-boats/recreationalcraft-canalboats.htm It is far easier to take the notes and achieve CE status during the build. Talk to Jonathan Leask for the best advice http://www.ce-craft.com/ Rob

I've deliberately chosen not to use the weather bomb thread as that has a lot of discussion about semantics. This is simply some timely reminders for the experienced boaters and perhaps fresh info for the newbies. High winds and solid fuel stoves Two dangers - over firing and carbon monoxide High winds can cause the fire to run away, so the best advice is not to bank up a stove and then leave it unattended. This is not theoretical risk. We always have more reports of stoves causing fires in high winds when owners have 'popped out' perhaps to work, to the shops or to the pub etc The wind causes more oxygen to enter the stove and the fire gets increasingly hot. This can lead to chimney fires, or surrounding combustible material catching fire from radiated heat. The stove industry people we speak with say that in its lifetime, a stove can expect to go through at least one over-firing event. Carbon monoxide (CO) - conversely, high winds can also cause back-draughts, where the combustion gases reverse and enter the cabin through the various gaps in the stove body. If the stove is not burning well and you can smell the smoke and other fumes from the stove, be wary. Have working CO alarms aboard. Be extra cautious if you go to bed with the stove running. Make sure you are well aware of the early symptoms of CO poisoning and act immediately if you suspect that you or other crew members have have problems More details here http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/solid-fuel-stoves/

Thanks for letting me know about that link. The MCA website another victim of the relentless culling of fairly useful government agency websites.

If you are on a boat with electric heating and cooking and/or a room-sealed boiler, there may not be an issue. On the other hand if you cook with LPG, have a gas water heater, a solid fuel stove or even a outboard motor, ventilation may make the difference. Death is not the only issue, a long-term exposure to lower concentrations of CO can lead to chronic illness such as forgetfulness and mood swings While the risk is more significant from CO whilst you are asleep in bed, in many events it has affected people who are awake in the cabin. This is the incident that sticks in my mind as it happened shortly after I had joined the BSS. Even a decade on, it horrifies me that something so ordinary killed two people http://www.harboroughmail.co.uk/news/mail-news/fatal-fumes-on-canal-boat-prompts-warning-1-1535670 Blocked ventilation has featured in many of the fatal incidents since then.

A co alarm should be mounted in the living quarters just below ceiling height and away from any sources of steam; not too close to vents and not directly above appliances. In the bedroom, the alarm should be in the breathing zone i.e. in the bed-head area. The essential details are on this page http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-%28co%29/placing-co-alarms/

You can see it on this page http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/solid-fuel-stoves/new-stove-new-chimney/ Without sufficient oxygen, a combustion process can be inefficient and incomplete and that can lead to CO.

There have been over 60 deaths from CO and fire on boats in the past 20 years - approx 30 of each cause In regards to hire craft - that is a different story. Have a look at the hirer safety review. The BSS was tasked by the various navigation authorities to run a general review of hirer safety. It goes beyond the basic condition and minimum safety standards for the boat (i.e. BSS standards) as the vehicle. It covers other elements such as hirer understanding and knowledge of boat and plant operation, accident and incident review. If you read far enough, you'll note it covers the subject of smoke and CO alarms http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/about-us/hirer-safety-review/hirer-safety-review-stage-2/ What may be predicted is that changes to the BSS examination for hire craft is likely coming out of the other end of this review - what those changes are, we will see in 2015. Rob

In the 2004 BSS standards revision consultation to e proposal was there, not as a requirement for private craft, but as an advice check - thus aligned with other 'first party' checks such as second means of escape (6.3.1), ventilation (8.9.1) and flue problems (8.10) etc. From the points that came through the consultation the committees considered that on balance such checks would not be introduced as at that time alarm suitability for boats was still under question. And the BSS office would be asked to monitor the situation and not least to understand how many boats were fitted with working alarms. And the BSS position was to ask boaters to consider fitting smoke and CO alarms. In 2007 we conducted a survey of alarm installation and use. I haven't time at the moment to go back to the results, but the figures were far, far lower for smoke alarms installed in boats than private households. The picture was worse for CO alarms. Since 2005 new standards have been published and an alarm technology and suitability for boats has improved for both CO and smoke alarms. This led to us changing our position as the new standards, which include sections on boat installation, were published to strongly recommending the installation of both type of alarm. Also since in the intervening decade there have been many incidents where either, if an alarm had been fitted, inquests and fire investigators believe there would have been a different outcome; or where the outcome was more positive because of an active alarm, such as the OP on this thread. Also anecdotally we now see more alarms on boats and we also witness organisations, especially fire and rescues services, promoting their use and handing out alarms to boat owners. The general picture has probably improved to some extent. We are planning a new survey of alarm installation and use next year. We are also involved in some joint research with a university on carbon monoxide dispersion and we are also working with another joint initiative that we hope will help 'spread the word' on the towpath. The question for the future may be that; related to smoke and CO alarms, should there be 'advice-only' checks that determine: if a certified alarm or alarms to the specified standards is/are installed; and if so, are all such alarms aboard in suitable positions are all such alarms aboard working when tested using the test button; and are all such alarms aboard in date? However with all this talk of alarms, and they are critical, it is vital to keep in mind that alarms are the backstop, prevention is a much better approach. HTH Rob

Did you get to speak with Charles and have you any photos you'd like to share with us (can be privately using https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/contact-us/contact-us-by-email/ ) Inverter related incidents are something we are looking at closely if and when we can gather the facts and details about the 'events' Regards