Colin Smith

Gem Marine Services. Serious boat builders who build narrowboats, barges and off-shore stuff. Rock solid financially, stage payments, superbly built boats at very competitive prices. Have a very flexible attitude and will build what you want. Mine was on budget, on time and properly designed. http://www.gemmarineservices.co.uk The websites not that good but well worth ringing them for a chat! Good luck with your search! Colin

Many thanks to you all for your replies. Think I will go with the 95mm2 for the DC bond and probably 6mm2 for the AC earth. To two studs! Regards, Colin

At the risk of revealing my ignorance and having searched the mutitude of threads relating to earth bonding (ouch!) I have what I hope are some simple questions, please? I have a 12v 550A battery pack for the domestics all wired with 95mm2 cable. This is connected (+v via a cutt-off switch) to a Sterling DC Link distribution box - approx 200mm. All the negatives are connected together at a single point in the battery box - the battery negative and negative return from the DC Link box, using a Blue Sea Power Post. There is a 10mm bonding stud welded to the bulkhead which is about 350mm from the Power Post in the battery box. I intend to connect from the Power Post to the hull bonding point stud. I have a Sterling 3000W PSW Inverter (connected with 95mm2 cable) which is likely to be the biggest draw on the battery pack when it is running a washing machine. This is about 800mm from the DC Link box. Other than that, no other major items - just the usual pumps and 12v toilet. There will be a shore power inlet, RCD etc and a Galvanic Isolator. 1. What size cable should I use for the DC negative from the Power Post in the battery box to the hull bonding stud? 2. Should the earth from the 240v side (shore power via the GI) be connected to the SAME hull bonding stud or should it be to a separate stud and if so, how close should they be? 3. What size/spec cable should I use for the shore-power (240v) earth connections to the GI and to the hull bonding stud (the 240v wiring is all in 4mm2 Arctic cable). Thanks in advance for your help! Colin

I was being a bit sarcastic No warranty - it was an eBay purchase but given that it was £300 for a 6500Watt "silent" genny, I hoped to get a year out of it, in which case it would have been cheap power! Ho hum.... Thanks for the contact.......looks like I might be lucky! Colin

My fantastic Chinese genny has packed up. It's been incredibly reliable for it's age (about 8 months old) but now the AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulator) has failed. Does anyone know where I can get one from or a good contact for generator spares in general? Thanks in advance, Colin

Gem Marine Services…financially pretty sound (part of a bigger, regulated group), quality build, on time, on budget, superb after-sales service. Wouldn’t hesitate to go back to them. Colin

Domestic copper hot water tanks are generally tested to around 3-5bar but are not designed for the cycling pressures of the sort you could have on a boat. The normal domestic setup is a vented cylinder with a domestic cold water tank feeding it. The hot water pressure is dictated by the static ‘head’ of water. So the higher the water tank (and volume of water it contains) creates the pressure. The exception to this is on sealed mains-pressure hot water tanks. These are usually made of stainless steel and tested to anything from 6-15bar. The hot water pressure is basically the same as the mains water pressure. In a sealed system, the mains inlet is usually fitted with a pressure regulator usually called a pressure reducing valve (PRV) this is not the same as a pressure relief valve (also referred to as a PRV) that you hear mentioned in boating systems. The pressure relief valve fitted to boat systems (and domestic systems) will vent hot water out of the system if the pressure goes above the threshold – usually 3bar. This water needs to go somewhere so you need to have a means to collect it. The mains pressure reducing valve on a domestic system is used to reduce mains pressure to an ‘acceptable’ level – for example 2.5 to 3bar. Most are adjustable so if you have a big shower unit or a lot of bathrooms, domestic hot water taps, big house etc you can up the pressure a bit provided your mains water pressure is above what you want – it’s not unusual for mains pressure to be anything up to 6bar. Domestic sealed hot water tanks are usually too big to fit in a boat and are expensive £600-£1000 so not usually an option on a boat unless you have a big barge and deep pockets! Most narrowboats are fitted with a copper calorifier. These are usually good for a narrowboat system running around 2-3bar pressure but the copper units do eventually burst – usually at the seams. It’s caused by the cycling and the fact that copper is a relatively soft metal so expands and contracts a lot more than stainless steel. They are relatively cheap though. The best option (in my opinion) for a boat is a stainless steel calorifier designed for the job. These are usually tested for anything from 10-15bar and will handle a ‘constant’ and cycling pressure of anything up to 6bar. But you should always check the specification carefully as there are a few out there that although tested to 10bar are only rated at 3bar for constant use. You can get a good stainless calorifier for around £350-£450 that will handle higher pressures and will outlast a copper unit by far. You should always fit a blending valve –that mixes the hot water with some cold on the hot water outlet and a temperature and pressure relief valve (TPRV) so if the pressure goes above the threshold or the temperature in the cylinder goes above a safe level, it will vent the cylinder. You should never use a pressure relief valve to reduce your pump pressure. It will be constantly banging on and off and venting when your pump runs (it should always be rated above your pump pressure). If your pump pressure is too great you can change the pump or fit a domestic type pressure reducing valve. I’ve got the mother of all showers on my barge which needs good pressure to get all the body jets and rain head working together. So I’ve a 3.1bar pump, adjustable pressure regulator, TPRV and a stainless calorifier. Colin

Have a look at: http://www.aquafax.co.uk/html/product_details.asp?ID=21076 £4.99 + Delivery + vat Should do the job! Colin

If you don't have any luck closer to home, I would recommend Gem Marine Services at Kirkby near Liverpool (0151 548 4084 - ask for Fred the MD). I know they have a slot coming up and doubt you'd find a better quality build for sensible pricing. They're also excellent people to deal with; lot's of experience and financially rock-solid. I bought mine from them and it was the best decision I've ever made! Good luck with your search. Colin

I have a similar setup organised. I have a voltage sensitive relay (VSR) connected to a programmable controller/timer delay with voltage regulator and then to a small 12v <1A fan (the type used for cooling computers) which blows fresh air into the battery box. The box is vented to outside at the top of the opposite end to the fan. The VSR activates and provides a supply to the fan when the voltage is at or over 13.8 volts ie. when under 'charge' via the controller. The controller has a voltage regulator built in to provide a regulated 12v to the fan. When the voltage drops below 13.8 volts, the VSR disengages the supply but the controller keeps the fan on for a period to help evacuate the box. The VSR is one that I already had, the fan was £5 from eBay. I had the controller manufactured (£35) - I know nothing about electronics!! Regards, Colin

Hi, Many sincere apologies for not responding sooner. I've been out of action for a bit unfortunately but now back with it! Batteries: To explain.....I have relationships with various manufacturers/distributors around the world - one of which is US Battery. We've used their products in large race-trucks/motorhome/hospitality units in the US and found them to be excellent. The US2200's are a good battery and very popular. With regard to the prices I mentioned for the batteries and the other things that I've mentioned in previous posts, such as auto-watering systems etc. I've no wish to break the rules or spirit of the forum so cannot publish links, contact details etc on here as I must declare an interest. However, if anyone wishes to PM me, I'd be happy to oblige. Regards, Colin

If you've got the room how about 6v Deep-Cycle lead acid? Good for at least 1300 cycles if looked after and properly charged/watered. A bank of 4 x 242Ah giving 484Ah (@20Hr rate) is about £475 all in delivered and a bank of 4 giving 566Ah @20Hr rate is about £575 all in delivered. The size/weight may be a problem depending on your motorhome. The 242Ah batteries are each 260L x181W x286H and come in at 30.4Kgs each; The 283Ah batteries are each 295L x181W x295H and come in at 35.4Kgs each. Colin

Hi Alan, I can't comment on other peoples research but agree with you that it's impossible to know absolutely that nothing will go wrong. However, as with any major transaction, the risk can only be properly estimated with the right information. It's then up to the individual to decide what level of risk they're happy to accept. I think this applies to buying new or second-hand. With regard to staged payments then I don't see a problem provided that you have title/certificate of ownership in return. This is reasonably easy to set up if you think about the major stages - steel purchase, hull constructed, engine/box in, timber purchased, electrical installation etc. I would advise anyone though, to get their own contract drawn up, make regular visits to check on the progress and get your own surveyor involved to confirm that the terms have been met for each stage, finished to an acceptable standard. Colin

Hi Pav, Having just read your post, that is a terrible situation and as someone who was taken for a ride several years ago to the tune of £30k (not boat related) I know how it feels - though I guess my situation wasn't as bad. I feel for you and I've realised just how fortunate I was in my choice of builder. I do understand how difficult it can be. There are builders (as per your initial experience) who look stable and have a history. One thing I found was that many builders are either traders or partnerships. This can make it difficult to get a genuine picture of their finances. I'd advise anyone looking to ask for the last 3 years of accounts - full accounts and not just a balance sheet. It's easier with a Limited company because they're a public document. The accounts won't tell you the full story but there are usually a few pointers to the real liabilities that a company (or trader) has and more importantly, when those liabilities are due. I've spent many of my working years looking at companies in detail so I've learned what to look for but a decent accountant wouldn't cost a lot to provide an opinion. One thing is certain (not just from your experience) 'membership' of a trade organisation means nothing and as far as I can see and the BMF-style contacts aren't worth anything. If I was going to buy a boat now, I'd still go with a new build but I'd probably be even more diligent. I'd certainly get my own contracts drawn up, have staged payments and set a schedule where the payments were made when the stages were completed, and in exchanged for a certificate of ownership. In my case my builder was part of a larger organisation. That organisation is involved in the insurance industry so there was lots of financial information available and any irregularity would have had very serious consequences for them. The payment schedule I agreed was a deposit followed by payments after the stages were completed and a large chunk on delivery. It all went like clock-work. Maybe I was lucky. Not something I looked into at the time but I wonder if there is any insurance available to underwrite the deal and/or if there are any type of Escrow arangements available to ensure the correct transfer of title in return for a stage payment? Regards, Colin

WRONG!!! I found a builder who is in no danger of going bust, very strong financially, staged payments, no risk. They do exist, you've just got to be careful and look closely. I wouldn't and didn't buy second hand. Too much like hard work sorting out other peoples ideas to suit my own and many second-hand live aboard boats will let you down, simply because they weren't designed for it. If you have researched, thought, planned, researched, thought again and planned some more then why not get what YOU want built? Colin

Chris Hi Chris, Thanks for your response. I’ve been off and re-checked everything: I take your point regarding the pump pressure etc. However the calorifier is stainless steel with a design max pressure of 8bar and it’s fitted with an adjustable PRV. The calorifier manufacturer recommends a maximum of 6bar so I believe I should be OK using the Flojet pump and the PRV set at 4bar. I know most boats are fitted with a copper calorifier and they can are susceptible to ‘balooning’ or failure at pressures over 3bar – hence the PRV’s set at 3bar. Thanks again for the calcs and your recommendation for sizing the expansion vessel and accumulator tank. Colin

Why bother with a second-hand boat? You could get a new decent sailaway, lined out, wiring done, tanks etc etc leaving you to fit a bathroom and kitchen for your sort of budget. There are lots of deals to be done at the moment with a fairly flat market. PM me if you want to know more........no I'm not a boat bulider but someone who also had a very limited budget! Colin

Hi Chris, Thank you for posting all of this. I'm in the middle of putting together my water system and would be grateful if you could advise: My pump is a Flojet R4300143A - cuts in at 2.1bar (30psi) - cuts out at 3.2bar (45psi). These pressures are quoted in the docs that came with the pump and on the Flojet website. My question is…are these figures likely to be psig or psia? I’ve looked at a lot of manufacturer sites but they only quote “psi” or bar. I intend to fit a calorifier of around 85lts with a suitable expansion vessel, NRV and a suitable accumulator etc. but just wanted to be sure I'm putting the right numbers into the equation! Thanks, Colin

Hi Lesley, I hooked up with a fantastic builder who has built my dream at a cost that was less than a decent 2nd-hand one without compromising on quality etc. She's a 57ft x 11ft barge with an excellent spec (12, 6, 5, 5 steelwork, Barrus 65Hp engine). There are some pictures on Flickr at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/synibex although the wheelhouse isn’t finished yet! I bought it as an ‘advanced sailaway’ – lots already done – paint, insulated, lined, wiring, etc. I didn’t have the budget for a complete build so am completing it myself and with hired-in professionals when I have the money! The builders are marine engineers based in the north west who build off-shore stuff as well as river/canal barges and narrowboats. The whole process was superb and we were involved from the very start with the designer who worked with us to give us exactly what we wanted - and the price was a lot lower than my other short-listed builders! Contact details are: Gem Marine Services. Kirkby New Lodge South Boundary Road Kirkby Merseyside L33 7SF tel.: 0151 548 4094 fax.: 0151 548 2587 e-mail: enquiries@gemmarineservices.co.uk e-mail: cadoffice@gemmarineservices.co.uk Ask to speak to Fred Lloyd (the MD) and tell him I suggested you get in touch....he's an excellent chap and is quite happy to talk. Recent projects have included narrowboats, 'narrowboat - style' widebeams, a couple of dutch-barge replicas, an off-shore cruiser and ours! I'd recommend that you take a trip to see them if possible. His designer is very, very clever and using a cad system will create your 'dream' in 3D so it's easy to move bulkheads about and get a proper feel for dimensions etc. Good luck with your search! Colin

Foalua, as she came from the builders. Lots of work to do - the wheelhouse timbers and roof being the first big task.... Colin

Hi Kay, Don't know if this is any help to you but I opted for 6v Lead Acid batteries with automatic watering. I did a comparison of Trojan and US Battery offerings - I've ended up with 4 x 283Ah batteries giving 566Ah at 12 volts and at less than £600 for the lot. The comparison list I put together includes a wide range of capacities, the sizes and weight. It's in a .pdf document and you can download it from: http://www.synibex.com/PDFs/Documents/6v%2...n%20Doc%201.pdf My batteries are in a plywood box which sits on top of a steel frame. They're fully enclosed with a ventilation system to evacuate gasses when under charge. The ventillation system has a small fan triggered by a voltage-sensitive relay and a fan over-run timer. It cost me about £60 to put together. Sorry but I don't have any pics at the moment! Regards, Colin

Hmm..a measured response and one that makes my point. Enjoy

Hi Nick. France has its problems and it isn't easy to set up a business but the benefits far outstrip the negatives. Spain is a bit dodgy when it comes to property law and tax - easy to trip up without good advice. Greece - there is a way to (legally) protect your finances to some degree. SA can be fantastic but is is a very different lifestyle and you need security which takes soem getting used to. I hear very good things about OZ and NZ but no real experience of them. The police are getting tougher but I think in the wrong direction. In my opinion it's the CPS who need sorting out. It doesn't matter what the police do to catch 'real' criminals - far to often their efforts are binned because the CPS will only go for cases where they have a cast-iron chance of winning. Even when they do prosecute or someone pleads guilty, the magistrates live on a different planet and won't dish out appropriate penalties - even if the government doesn't instruct them to send less people to jail. I suspect (with the exception of some notable incidents lately and the work they do for the government) a lot of the bad press they get is the fault of the CPS and the government rather than themselves. Colin