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Posts posted by IanD

  1. 19 minutes ago, IanM said:


    If they set off late and get to Hopwas on the first evening I would think they were doing unbelievably well!


    I think you meant Hopwood 😁


    Using Canalplan default timings possible moorings include Hopwood (1h), King's Norton Junction (not wonderful) 2h20m, Glasshouse Brewery (ditto) 2h40m, Bournville VM (ditto) 2h50m, The Vale (good) 4h, Brum (excellent) 4h30m. It all depends what time they get off and what time they want/need to stop...


    When I've been hiring boats with plenty of experience, hire bases are happy to get you off first with little instruction and then move on to the newbies who will need more time spent on them, because this keeps the maximum number of people happy -- but does mean a newbie might not get off until 4pm or so, or even later if there's more than one boat in this category. But it all depends on how many boats there are and how many staff, and how diligent they are with educating newbies... 😉 



  2. 31 minutes ago, GUMPY said:



    Or you could do a Google search and follow up various results including scientific papers, which are much more verbose and less easy to understand but which all come up with similar results... 😉 


    Any significant fault-induced voltage (big enough to even give you a mild tingle) on the boat GND/steel hull -- which is big, and submerged in quite conductive water, not deionised -- will easily give enough leakage current to trip any RCD, on shore or boat.


    Go on, man up and admit you were wrong... 😉 

  3. 1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

    Give me an example of a fault where having the IT on the boat is safer. 🤔



    Like I said, in an ideal world you're correct that having an IT on shore is preferable, with any screen connected to shore GND.


    But for all the reasons I gave, that's not practical in most cases -- not least because having a portable one means it doesn't have to be used if it's too much bother. And there's your example, because you can't avoid using a built-in IT on the boat... 😉 


    And if the IT is on the boat, the interwinding screen -- if there is one, which there often isn't -- should be connected to the boat GND, as should any metal case.


    Incidentally, you suggested earlier that if a hull went live not much current would flow due to the high resistance of water so an RCD might not trip -- well, you're wrong. According to published data typical inland fresh water resistivity in a canal/marina (clay bottom) is about 100ohm-m or lower, plug in typical narrowboat sizes and water depth and distance to bank when moored and the likely resistance to ground is a few ohms (maybe 1ohm-10ohm range depending on various factors).




  4. 26 minutes ago, David Mack said:

    So if a hire boat travelling after dark hits your boat causing damage, who are you going to claim against? Of course they are insured. The hire companies just tell their customers they are not as a deterrent to travelling in the dark.

    <sigh> yes the boat is probably insured at night (maybe third party only?), but the hirer can be liable for part or all of the cost of any claim because they breached the T&Cs of their hire agreement -- the insurance company (or hire company?) can try and recover costs or excess from them. Or maybe the insurance covers third party damage at night but not damage to the boat itself. Or maybe it's not covered and you have to sue the hirer if your boat is damaged, who knows the exact terms, they may differ between insurance companies. So as far as the hirer is concerned, it might as well not be insured because they could be hit with a big bill.


    Easy summary for normal people to understand -- "don't travel after dark, the boat isn't insured"... 😉 

  5. 16 hours ago, J R ALSOP said:

    Only had mine off 4 times in 45 years, I always use a boat hook from the bank / bridge hole or lock side.

    The secret is alway watch your wash / engine noises and a occasional chuck back keeps most things where they belong, on the bottom of the canal.

    A few bursts ahead and astern usually removes debris, but not anything really tangled around the prop -- lengths of rope, fenders, sacks, dresses, trousers, cable, barbed wire, fishing nets, mattresses, tyres, tarpaulins, bedsheets, duvets... 😞 



  6. The OP is on a hire boat, so all the talk about how it's nice to carry on after dusk is irrelevant, the boat will not be insured for this.


    We've had this problem in the past (but not there specifically), aiming to get somewhere nice the first evening but either being delayed setting off or en route and having to stop somewhere unpleasant when it got dark -- in one case opposite busy mainline railway lines and a building site that started up at 7am, next to a brick wall with a traveller encampment on wasteland the other side, with no pub or shops or anything else nearby... 😞 


    Alvechurch to Brum is 4hrs or so -- or 4h30m with canalplan defaults, which may be more appropriate for a newbie -- which may be pushing it, especially given that the boat hire people are likely to get experienced boaters away first and leave a newbie who needs more instruction and explanation until last.

  7. 15 hours ago, Peanut said:

    The link below provides guidance on the issues being discussed, including the advice from the BMF to their members. Interesting reading.


    RCD/RCR Guide to Vessel Certification and Due Diligence






    Post merge strikes again, pestilence.


    In case you are thinking that the guidance posted above is not law, while correct, there will have been a lot of expert and legal input to it.


    There is a website you may know of which will give you their take on the law, which is at variance to that of CRT. In fact, they will encourage you to ignore CRT and follow the advice they give, even as your boat is removed under section 8. An illegal act, stolen, they say. Sometimes what you read is plain wrong, contrary to law, while good advice ignored.


    The relevant bits are here, for those who don't want to wade through the guide:

    Suggested guidance to the seller:

    Our understanding is that the vessel should have been built and correctly CE marked to satisfy the requirements of the Recreational Craft Directive, but there is no such proof provided by the seller, as such the vessel can be legally sold but you should satisfy yourself of any such implications that may arise from selling the vessel.

    The only way to mitigate all risk to you as the seller is for you to instruct a PCA to be undertaken, however it is not a requirement for you to do this.

    Suggested guidance to the purchaser:

    Our understanding is that the vessel you are purchasing should have been built and correctly CE marked to satisfy the requirements of the Recreational Craft Regulations and there is no such proof provided by the vessel owner. You should satisfy yourself of any implications that may arise from purchasing the vessel. 

    You are advised to seek further advice should you see fit.

    However, whilst the purchase is not illegal, you should be mindful that there could be implications for future saleability or value of the vessel.


    In other words it's up to the seller and the buyer to decide what do do, there is no legal obstacle to selling or buying a boat without the correct paperwork, but there is a small chance that this may come back to bite you in future.

  8. 12 hours ago, GUMPY said:

    Being really picky an IT should be at the supply and not on the boat.

    Think of the scenario when the IT is on the boat and the cable going to the boat gets damaged and shorts to the boat, if it's the earth then you lose your galvanic  protection and you might never know.

    In an ideal world, perhaps -- though again you're cherry-picking one fault scenario to make your case and ignoring all the others, some of which favour it being onboard.


    However in real life shoreline bollards don't have (big, heavy, expensive) ITs permanently fitted to them, so you'd have to keep one on the boat and lug it onto shore (heavy!) when you wanted to use it -- assuming it was high enough IP rated to be left outside in the rain (many are not), and you chained it down to stop it being nicked (valuable). Plus when somebody gets lazy or forgets they don't use it, so there is no isolation at all.


    All of which makes this an impractical option in reality -- which is why they're almost always fitted onboard, as shown in the diagrams I posted... 😉 

  9. 23 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

    Hmm I think its a fair question by Gumpy. I am struggling to see how a shore RCD would operate with the screen connected to boat "earth".  I note that Gibbo on the smartgauge site advocates screen connected to shore earth.   

    I'm not picking a fight just trying to learn and check my understanding of how these things work.  Putting cards on table I don't need either a GI or IT as I'm off grid. Although do have a GI for those times we have access to shore power. 


    Accepting the failure mode of primary to screen is pretty unlikely but if it did.....



    Either primary to screen or secondary to screen is indeed an unlikely failure mode, most toroidal transformers have a double layer of insulation between windings (and windings and screen if they have one). A turn-to-turn short within a winding is a more likely failure mode.


    The circuit is symmetrical, so whichever side the screen is grounded to, a short to a winding (which one?) will either blow a fuse or mean the boat GND has a voltage on it. Which is fine so long as you're on the boat; if you form a bridge to shore then the RCD will trip, just like in a house.


    There are other reasons to connect the screen to the boat ground, especially in a metal-cased IT -- which Gumpy doesn't like, but is what Victron use, possibly because a plastic case isn't robust enough for something that weighs 30kg or more.


    The advantage of an IT over a GI is much better isolation, especially with long cable runs (e.g. in marinas) where there may be significant voltage on the incoming neutral or GND, and the fact that if a GI fails it usually fails short-circuit which is not detected -- except it no longer works as a GI. However a GI is much cheaper than an IT, which is probably why most canal boats use them...

  10. 3 minutes ago, MtB said:


    Another advantage is you can start off standing near as dammit straight upright and poking at the foul with the cabin shaft. Nine times out of ten you clear it that way without even needing the knee cushion! 



    I find it easiest to lie down anyway (on a mat to keep clothes clean) to release and remove the baffle plate, in which case you're already down there...


    Either way, a damn sight easier than the usual inaccessible monstrosity 🙂 

  11. 8 minutes ago, Tonka said:

    Will there is no rule but there are some water points which now having a 30 min or a 1/2 hour mooring sign

    There are, but like @Annie cariad it took us 50mins to fill up (at Stone), so that's how long we moored there.


    I suspect they're trying to discourage the idiots who moor at a water point and then go off shopping or run a washing machine or have showers, even if this takes an hour or more and they're not filling up the tank.


    Or even those who moor there for a lot longer because it's convenient... 😞 

  12. 25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

    We had a similar 'hatch' on our Reeves built trad and it certainly made access a lot easier.



    It's certainly a damn sight easier than trying to pull stuff out through a hatch under the stern deck with the weed hatch top perhaps 30cm above the uxter plate, leaving maybe a foot gap for the poor sod contorted down over the gearbox... 😞 


    6 minutes ago, MtB said:


    Yep, exactly that. But mine both being proper trad format (except with the weed hatch lol!) and the same applies. Lying on a cushion over the back door threshold, legs inside the cabin, head and shoulders down the chute is remarkably comfy while you snip away at the mattress or sari. 


    Also, I carry a long plumber's ground stopcock key (crutch key) to occasionally re-tighten the clampy thing on the baffle plate(s) whilst standing up and hardly even bending over. No more damage to my fragile knees! 


    You can also see what you're doing if the water's clear enough and you wear a head torch. Reinforced arm-length rubber gloves come in handy too 🙂 


    IMHO it's a far better setup than the conventional weed hatch, I don't understand why more builders don't do it -- maybe it's harder to fabricate and therefore costs more?

  13. 14 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

    It’s taken me a few years to learn this 😳

    especially important now the waterways are a tad busier. 



    I guess it depends how big your tank is and how fast you empty it -- we only filled up once a week, and still had 300l (30%) left, so moving on for another day or two to the next water point (or the one after that) if it was busy would be no problem.


    Many hire boats have tanks half the size and the crew use at least twice the amount of water, which means a fill-up at least every other day -- and if you miss a day, possibly running out. DAMHIK... 😞 

  14. 4 minutes ago, Annie cariad said:

    Mooring close to the mailbox no drama just don't leave to late ,feed the street people breakfast,shared our bacon sandwiches earlier this year with them , could not have been nicer x


    In my experience, most people are nice if you treat them as human beings not scum, whether living on the street or doing menial jobs...

    • Love 1
  15. 13 minutes ago, MtB said:


    One idea for the weed hatch which works better than it sounds, is to cut an access panel in the trad stern deck immediately above the hatch, about 15-18" square. Then weld a tapered chute down onto the top of the existing weed hatch top. Both of my boats were built like this and although its a long way down to the blade, its a lot easier to get at it than with the hatch underneath a fixed counter stern deck. And of course you no longer need a waterproof lid on it. Just the baffle plate. 



    My Tim Tyler hull (semi-trad) has a tapered "chute" weed-hatch like that, it's a long way down but actually far easier to get to than being hidden under the stern deck, you can get your head shoulders and arms down it easily -- in my case, while lying comfortably flat on the deck in the semi-trad section. The other advantage is it's impossible to flood the boat by having the hatch not sealed properly or even left off, though of course no CWDF poster would ever commit such a sin... 😉 




  16. 9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

    King’s Speech confirms Starmer’s Brexit ‘reset’ with laws to align with EU rules


    New laws set out in the King’s Speech will make it easier for the UK to potentially align with some EU rules, as the monarch confirmed the Labour Government’s bid to “reset the relationship” with European allies.

    Good -- some common sense at last, instead of party dogma and Brexit rhetoric... 🙂 

    • Greenie 1
  17. 30 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

    Answer. Because I can it's a forum.  Yes there are safe moorings in Manchester. The question has been answered. All the rest is of just opinions. That's the facts 😜

    Last post (not yours...) that made any useful contribution : about 20 posts ago.


    Everything since : sniping and "banter" and gaslighting. As so often on CWDF, and almost always from the same people... 😉 


    Actually, looking back through the entire thread, you haven't made a single post that contributed anything useful or helpful to the discussion, factual or otherwise -- apart from the one sentence in bold, which is hardly revelatory... 🙂 

  18. 3 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

    New balls please. Oh sorry Wimbledon has finished. I'm out off here had enough sport for today and that is a fact 😜

    Like I said, it's easier to post like that than post anything constructive -- so why do you keep doing it? 😉 

  19. 9 minutes ago, Peanut said:

    Diagrams show the earth connected to the hull, which is all well if you have a steel boat. With a yoghurt pot, do you need a grounding plate on the outside?


    Or do you have a centre tapping on the transformer, or some other connection?

    With a plastic (or wood) hull all the equipment neutrals connect together and back to the IT neutral, all the equipment grounds (including metal cases) connect together and back to the IT ground, and the ground and neutral are linked at the IT -- pretty much like a house installation on land in a non-metal building with neutral-ground bonding at the consumer unit...

  20. 7 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

    It's only banter in my opinion. If it was personal and you feel picked on that up to you. Leave you to it 👍

    Not feeling picked on, just amused that it's so predictable who is going to respond when I post things like this -- always the same people, always the same responses... 😉 


    I suppose it's much easier to try and provoke people in the hope that they either shut up or flounce off in a huff than it is to actually contribute constructively to a discussion...

  21. 2 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

    This appears to be a yearly discussion 

    Last done August last year so I'm out

    BTW there is no interwinding screen in that diagram🤭

    But there is in the other one I posted. You do realise these are descriptive drawings, not accurate wiring system schematics?😉 


    Would you like a list of marine/electrical approval authorities so you can write to them and tell them that Victron ITs are dangerous? 🙂 


    (yes you've ridden this particular hobby-horse before, and fell at the same fence...)

  22. 5 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

    So in your opinion it's an argument not a discussion then. I've I got my facts correct 🤔

    It started as a discussion, then turned into an argument when some people got personal and ganged up... 😞


    Still waiting for the answer to the apparently too-difficult question though... 😉 

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