Paul H

Referring to the original thread and attitude to hire boats, ironically I find the crews of hire boats - at least around the Braunston area - to be often far more competant than many of the private owners. A hirer may have been coming back year after year but even if he has not he may have done many more miles even in the one week than many a private owner. The smarter the boat, the longer he spends without leaving the marina and the less cruising he actually does - just tootling up to the nearest pub on a sunny Sunday. And of course he will be the one telling every one else how to do it and moaning that nobody else has fenders dangling off their sides. I have been boating for 30 years and the standard of boating has deteriorated markedly over time. When I started there were still working boats around and knowledgeable lock keepers - and hirers and owners watched how to do it properly, read books on "locking technique" etc. Now there is a general belief that there's nothing to it and anyone can do it which leads to some very dangerous practices, inefficiencies and time-wasting. OK boating should be leisurely but if ignorance and general faffing about means you take 20 minutes to go through a lock rather than under 10 or even 5 minutes, then you cause congestion at popular spots. Similarly there are some that go too fast but even more who don't have a clue how to moor up properly. As the canals get more congested I can see a real need for some basic training before being allowed out of the marina - or we will see more and more incidences of "boat rage." I have also pointed out to BW that with all the extra revenue they are receiving from the new and extended marinas around Napton they might spend some of it on lock keepers at Napton and Braunston in order to cope with the attendant congestion/aggro - and before the cuts they were actually considering it. But back to hire boats. Remember, people on hire boats are actually there for the boating rather than a floating country cottage so respect them. We need more real boating and less boats. Paul H

I don't think this is all that suspicious really. I control a small marina and despite being a popular mooring and cheaper than others locally we occasionally have empty spots so I imagine the bigger ones have more. At some times of the year the phone never stops ringing but in the winter people are reluctant or unable to move to fill vacancies. But of more significance is the majority of calls are from people with boats over 55ft long many of who want to be liveaboards. So if you have a corner of a marina restricted to 50ft and don't want liveaboards then moorings are harder to fill. In fact the mooring shortage is exaggerated. All marinas have waiting lists but these are often the same people on everyone's list and there will always be a turnover from people selling up due to old age, bereavement, divorce, redundancy or whatever. If you want a mooring in a particular marina - keep phoning them up and you could well find you leap the queue quite quickly. Paul H

I may be wrong but I do not imagine that red diesel will disappear overnight. The EU has ruled but the Government will have to work out the detail and there are bound to be transitional arrangements. I would expect to see red diesel available for months or even a year ahead. I's keep your tanks filled up though. Paul H

No it was £80,000 a year to be a "the highest paid Director" of BW Marinas Ltd and, although I stand to be corrected, I do not imagine this to be any more than a part time position and mainly involved in attending meetings. The CEO of BW itself obviously earns much more and deservedly so - I imagine he's pretty busy at the moment! Paul H

Ok, perhaps I should have made myself clearer. My point regarding the connection fees was really to explain why people feel that BW are in a monopoly position. Whilst they do not operate every marina, they have an element of control and financial interest in most of those that they do not. I am not anti-BW, they often do what they should be doing very well but their forray in to marina management has been a financial disaster and has done little or nothing to generate any significant income for the waterways. In fact they could have given the marinas away free of charge to private operators and made more money in connection fees than they if they operated them themselves. They don't charge any less than private marinas and in some cases much more. What is different is their cost structure. My comment about the Drectors doing pump outs was tongue in cheek but go to Braunston Marina on a Sunday and you will find Tim C. manning the office and a few miles down the canal you will find Sarah Jane at Weltonfield. Even these large successful marina operations do not generate enough to allow an £80K a year Director to swan about in a company car attending the occasional board meeting - the operators are hands-on and working all hours. And remember it is OUR money BW are playing with! What is significantly different with the private operators is that they are playing with their own money, often borrowed from the banks at a significantly higher interest rate than 3%! Of course BW also used to operate hire boats and the zoo waterbuses - both lost substantial sums of money but in the hands of private operators, surprise surprise! I firmly believe that the future for BWML is for it to operate in some public-private partnership like BW is doing with its pub portfolio. Paul H

The argument here is whether BW even though an independant subsidiary BWML should be in this business at all. They may not be a monopoly in one sense - there are other operators but those operators have connection agreements with BW and surrender usually 9% of their turnover at estimated full capacity (even when not full). BW also have a databse of potential customers through licencing and opportunities for free advertising. But above all, they are crap at running businesses - the profit generated in the last year represents 3% of capital employed. Not only is this unfair competition for private marinas (most of whom would have to pack up if they made such little return) but also it is a crap use of their (sorry our) money. If, as stated their intention is to generate money for the good of the waterways then they would be better off putting it in to a post office savings account. And the only reason they made ANY money at all is due to a change in accounting. Previously they had paid BW a "rates equivalent" to create a level playing field with private marinas because as a subsidiary of BW they pay no rates. So if there is any profit at all is because they were effectively subisdised by the local authorities to the tune of £200,000! And they are depreciating the pontoons over 25 years! Does anyone know ANY jetty or pontoon that lasts anywhere near that time? But perhaps the fact that they are paying the highest paid Director (who I bet never does a pumpout!) over £80,000 a year explains a lot. The sooner BW gets back to basics, the better. Paul H

Can't get the link thingy to work but try www.canaljunction.com. Go to News and Comments Then look for 4th "Feature" down the page. Bolinder, Lister JP2 and Armstrong Squidly! Paul H

I think Hairy-Neil may be thinking of White Heather which was built for Marylebone Council to work on the Regents Canal rubbish contracts with Tyburn (ex-Birmingham). It is along similar if a little-cruder lines and built much later in 1932. Now based on the Basingstoke Canal, I think it ventured out to the IWA National at Beale Park this summer. White Heather Paul H

I have owned several ex-working boats with and without boatman's cabins. Headroom is not really an issue because there isn't much room to stand up anyway and you sit down pretty quickly automatically. What is a problem is the length of the beds and it is pretty difficult to get a cross bed more than about 5ft 6ins long on a modern boat. The only other major problem is keeping it nice. Boating in wet weather means the cabin gets wet and dirty - and I always seem to be leaving cotton lines and old tools all over the side bed. Being 6ft 3 it also always feels like playing Wendy Houses. Howver it is nice to be away from the engine - 8ft separation from the steering position makes a huge difference, the engine is easier to maintain and of course having a range warming your nether regions is heaven on a cold day. Motor boat cabins are appreciably smaller than butty cabins and were never used much for living at least by families. Most of the living went on outside the boat because boatmen worked long hours, in the pub or holed up in the butty with the motor cabin only being used for sleeping and by people who were in general shorter than the enthusiasts of today. But if you want one (and many people do) there's no better and more characterful way to pack so much in to an 8ft length of boat -just be aware of the limit on bed length! Paul H

For many years Foxton Boat Services used to operate 5 camping boats: Motors: Bletchley, Baldock and Coleshill and butties: Argus and Virginis. They did azcquire other boats (Corolla and Crux spring to mind) but I don't think they were ever operational. I remember Baldock and Virginis operating together in the late 1970s but this may well have changed to Coleshill by the early 1980s. Baldock is now converted and was moored near Bristol, Bletchley and Argus operate as coal boats with a new owner and Coleshill and Virginis are up on the bank derelict at Foxton. As they are out of the water and have been for many years they are not licenced and therefore not on Jim Shead's site. There is a 1973 picture of Baldock and Virginis in the book Narrow Boats at Work which is not very distinct but appears to show the exhaust stack in a different position to that on Moley's boat and a pigeon box instead of a flat hatch. So my money would be on "his" boat being Coleshill. Tony and Mary Matts are still at FBS at Foxton. Otherwise Julia Cook who used to steer the Virginis is worth asking - she is usually found at Stoke Bruerne sometimes working in the museum. Hope this helps. Paul H.

Hi Daniel, I'd noticed that my bookmark to Roger fuller's historic boats pages had gone dead. Good news that you've taken it over. What's the new url? Yes Baltic has left Pitstone - i imagine there's quite a lot of updating to do! Paul H

As you may have gathered from my posts about NB Prince I have more than a passing interest in BCN icebreakers, or iceboats to be pedantic. There are two I'd like to photograph but have lost track of, both have been motorised and fitted with cabins. Oates was last seen with a blue cabin with counter conversion and apparantly visted the last Kelvin rally at Napton. Baltic was last seen around Marsworth with a grey cabin and still with a butty-style "elum." (rudder) Anyone know wher they moor these days? Many thanks. Paul H

Found it! Just by chance, browsing through some old Waterways Worlds I came upon an article about Jem Bates of Puttenham who stated that he had Prince in bits in his yard (presumably just the iron bits) and accurate measurements towards the day when someone rich enough might finance a rebuild. So how about it? You could end up with a boat just as authentic as Raymond! Actually as he also has the bits of my old wooden motor "William" I hope they don't get mixed up! I also wonder where the knees for his new boat (reviewed in Canal Boat) came from..... My reason for banging on about the Coventry Canal Society mudboat possibly being an ex-icebreaker is that of the 6 iron BCN iceboats (Antarctic, Baltic, Empress, Laplander, Oates and Ross only Empress is missing which is amazing as they all over 160 years old now! It was reported as being used in the mid 1970s as a mudboat by the CCS after which it disappeared. The information may of course be wrong but these boats are quite distinctive being round bilged, double-ended and about 30 - 40ft long. Incidentally does anyone know where Oates moors these days? Thanks. Paul H

Thanks Roger - fascinating photo and thanks for going to all that trouble. Something that might not be too clear from your picture is that Bert Dunkley's Prince had an extra cabin but curiously not joined on to the engine room but with a 4ft gap between the two- which was pretty unusual and distinctive. The boat despite a badly hogged and soggy hull was always smartly painted H R Dunkley (H for Herbert) - a google search confims he was not related to Tony Dunkley. A list I have suggests the boat may have survived in a derelict state until as late as the early 1990s on the bank at Stoke Hammond until broken up. I certainly remember boating past such an ex-wooden motor high and dry in this area but it didn't have a name or distinguishing features. Bert Dunkley in addition to being owner of Prince and the founder of the Coventry Canal Society was also a prolific historic researcher and much of his valuable work survives in the Waterways Trust's archives. Unfortunately much was also apparantly sadly destroyed by his family who did not appreciate its significance on his death (in his late 80s) in c1998. You mentioned the mud boat. It is my understanding that this might have been an old ice breaker. Do you have a picture and do you know what happened to it? Regards, Paul

I think we're getting in a muddle here. I know of 3 ex-working motors called Prince that have been around in recent years: Ex-GUCCC Royalty Prince in all steel - semi-converted and last seen at Wheaton Aston on the Shroppy in March. Ex-FMC steamer Prince (iron sides formerly wooden bottom but maybe now replaced in steel) owned by Malcolm Webster (the restorer of Saturn) of Malkins Bank, Sandbach Ex-Barlows Prince, all wooden badly hogged and in quite poor condition in the late 70s. This is certainly the boat once owned by Bert Dunkley. I feel sure it will have been broken up but you could try the HNBOC archivist Jan Deuchar via webmaster@hnboc.org.uk for confirmation. Hope this helps. Paul H

There are good boatbuilders and lousy boat builders but even good boatbuilders sometimes build lousy boats. As an operator of a small marina I have seeen and heard many a tale of woe and legal action - these have include problems with award winning boatbuilders and long-established volume builders. Narrow boats are built in often quite primitive working conditions, often by enthusiasts rather than businessmen with little quality-control and supervision of labour, "snags" are inevitable and quite major problems do occur. A particular problem time is when a successful builder expands to meet demand and stops being so "hands on" himself. For example, a faulty weld on a water tank meant constantly wet bilges for one boat, rotting floorbearers and after 5 years of legal argy bargy the boatbuilders took it back to their yard, stripped out the interior and started again. A good result in the end but not something any of us would like to go through. I would urge every purchaser of a new boat to employ a surveyor to supervise the build and particularly for a pre-delivery inspection. Failing that, buy a boat just a few years old when all the teething problems have been ironed out - and it is a nice clean purchase without the worry of stage payments and transfer of ownership. As regards the financial standing of boatbuilders, narrow boats are simply too cheap! Compare them to sea going boats and even fibreglass river boats, you will see what a bargain you're getting. For example a Viking 32 aft-cabin fibreglass cruiser with 40hp four-stroke outboard motor is advertised at £48,950!! Profit margins on the canals are simply too thin and if they are building to a fixed price and material costs increase between order and delivery (as they have done of late) then the boatbuilder has problems. Yes, many of them are underfunded hence the need for stage payments but if they were borrowing the money from the bank rather than you then the price would go up accordingly. On balance, I'd buy secondhand. Immediate delivery, less hassle, less worry, less depreciation and with today's largely standardised layout probably not much different to what you'd have ended up with anyway. Paul H

I remember a boat from the 70s in Rickmansworth with portholes down one side and windows down the other. Sounds odd but it didn't look it as you couldn't see both sides simultaneously. The idea was to give privacy when moored up on busy towpaths with still plenty of light and views of ducks - mind you the canals were less busy with passing boats at the time. Paul H

Hi Davison Brothers used to have Sawley Marina which is now of course operated by our friends BW. They built some nice boats there and sometimes innovative boats there. The main man still operates as a surveyor locally. Contact Derrick Davison 0115 972 7764 and he may be able to help. HTH Paul H

Actually I think this boat is a genuine Fellows Morton & Clayton (Josher) motor built in 1939. Like a few others in the late 1960s it was shortened and had its bow chopped in to a punt-like shape to make a motorised maintenance flat - which wasn't a great success. Latterly someone has fashioned a more conventional bow on to it but it retains the original counter stern. A great project for a restorer but to do the boat justice it will probably need more money spending on it than it would ultimately be worth. If it has never been refooted it will probably need it and all these boats go around the counter. However much you spend though it will never be worth £100K. As has been mentioned before, historic narrowboats are seriously undervalued which limits the amount justified in spending on them. Hope someone does though. By the way, it was previously advertised as being 52ft long. Maybe its the hot weather. Paul H

I think this is Harboro Boats who used to built at - surprise surprise - Market Harborough but lost their site due to the redevelopment some years ago. I think the staff were ex-Harborough Marine/Anglo Welsh. There was talk of them relocating but I don't think they ever did - at least not under the same name. Paul H

I saw Gertrude sunk about 10 days ago but not sure what current situation is. Maybe £100k for a restoration is a bit over the top but Saturn's I believe cost over £70K. I am not sure how much Raymond's cost but if spending more had got it right I wish they had! I have owned a 70ft wooden boat and have hung round at yards long enough to know that once you start a retoration it is very hard to justify keeping any slightly dodgy bit of original oak. I would be astonished if you could do it for £30K unless this is with free labour. I have fond memories of Lucy both when crewed by the Whitlocks and later when owned by Ray Williams and paired with Aster. The memory of sitting in a traditional backcabin and listening to Hawkwind through scumbled speakers will not easily be forgotten. Obviously this was in Ray's ownership! Paul H

The Historic Narrow Boat Owners Club did a survey of wooden boats in 1999 and identified this one opposite Shardlow Marina as being a butty last called "Blackbird" which was not the original name. Said it was "breaking up on the riverbank" and was possibly a GUCCC ricky-built boat originally called Cardiff. I am sure it could be restored if u had over £100,000 to spend. But why not buy Lucy or Gertrude the latter recently sunk at Newbury? Paul H