Can I swap a Webasto Thermo Top E for a Top VEVO?

[Lanners]

Hi All,

 

Anyone know if I can easily swap a Webasto Thermo Top E for a Top VEVO ? (part no.9022853B)

 

The heat exchanger has gone on ours (for the second time) and it seems cheaper to get a VEVEO one rather than getting the heat exchanger replaced on the existing one (our warrenty is out)

 

Any ideas anyone?

 

Thanks

[NMEA]

Not easily but it can be done, downsides: the loom, fuel pump and controller are completely different, it is also W bus controlled (even the universal kit) whereas the TTE & TTC are +12v control so really you would need a complete kit not just the boiler, the VEVO at 5kw will be oversized for your system, assuming the reads are under about 6kw total. The VEVO is not approved for marine use so there will be warranty issues. Changing to a TTE is the only simple straight swap solution and frankly many narrowboats would be better served with a TTE anyway, people fit TTCs as it is what has always happened but there is no real cost benefit as the prices are similar and when one does the numbers according to Webasto protocol a TTE is indicated very often. Anyway, I digress, back to the question, there is also the high likelyhood that the VEVO variant you are looking at will be be looking for a signal from the vehicle bus to operate, not an insurmountable problem but you did use the word "easily" It is very rare indeed to get a heat exchanger problem unless on a neglected install where the inhibitor has not been kept up, but that is a long term issue and as you mention warranty I assume yours is quite new. Are you sure it is not the ECU? that is actually not sold as a part and comes pre fitted to the heat exchanger and I suspect that is the problem, again not a common failure, except where a system has been allowed to overheat due to air locks or there has been a total power disconnect preventing a cool down cycle etc. My advice would be don't do it as the final cost including loom, new smart W bus controller and pump would not give any cost benefit over a repair and you would have no warranty, at least a new ECU & heat exchanger will give you a warranty.

Edited March 21, 2015 by NMEA

[Lanners]

Not easily but it can be done, downsides: the loom, fuel pump and controller are completely different, it is also W bus controlled (even the universal kit) whereas the TTE & TTC are +12v control so really you would need a complete kit not just the boiler, the VEVO at 5kw will be oversized for your system, assuming the reads are under about 6kw total. The VEVO is not approved for marine use so there will be warranty issues. Changing to a TTE is the only simple straight swap solution and frankly many narrowboats would be better served with a TTE anyway, people fit TTCs as it is what has always happened but there is no real cost benefit as the prices are similar and when one does the numbers according to Webasto protocol a TTE is indicated very often. Anyway, I digress, back to the question, there is also the high likelyhood that the VEVO variant you are looking at will be be looking for a signal from the vehicle bus to operate, not an insurmountable problem but you did use the word "easily" It is very rare indeed to get a heat exchanger problem unless on a neglected install where the inhibitor has not been kept up, but that is a long term issue and as you mention warranty I assume yours is quite new. Are you sure it is not the ECU? that is actually not sold as a part and comes pre fitted to the heat exchanger and I suspect that is the problem, again not a common failure, except where a system has been allowed to overheat due to air locks or there has been a total power disconnect preventing a cool down cycle etc. My advice would be don't do it as the final cost including loom, new smart W bus controller and pump would not give any cost benefit over a repair and you would have no warranty, at least a new ECU & heat exchanger will give you a warranty.

Wow, a lot to consider, so if I get a webasto authorised engineer to replace the heat exchanger, it will come with another 2 year warranty?

It failed about a year ago (under warranty) so would that fix still be under warranty?

 

The unit is 2.5 years old and the exchanger has gone twice - I've dismantled it and its defo a hole in the bottom of the exchanger matrix (or whatever its called).

I was advised it could be getting damaged from electrolysis so I've cleaned up the boat earth connections as advised.

 

This is the one I was looking at http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171706907918?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

And then one of these to control it: http://sales.butlertechnik.com/webasto/webasto-water-heater-spare-parts-2/webasto-thermo-top-c-e-and-z-heater-parts/webasto-heater-smart-controller-9030026a?___SID=U

 

Would that work or would I also need a fuel pump, and bus controller? - (I'm happy to rewire the loom / swap the connectors etc)

 

Thanks for your advice so far

[Lanners]

Just to add, we have 4 x 800x600 rads (looks like 850W each) plus a towel rail.

With the old Top E, they never got really hot, so perhaps a 5KW heater would be better (our boat is 65x11)

[NMEA]

Wow, a lot to consider, so if I get a webasto authorised engineer to replace the heat exchanger, it will come with another 2 year warranty?

It failed about a year ago (under warranty) so would that fix still be under warranty?

 

The unit is 2.5 years old and the exchanger has gone twice - I've dismantled it and its defo a hole in the bottom of the exchanger matrix (or whatever its called).

I was advised it could be getting damaged from electrolysis so I've cleaned up the boat earth connections as advised.

 

This is the one I was looking at http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171706907918?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

And then one of these to control it: http://sales.butlertechnik.com/webasto/webasto-water-heater-spare-parts-2/webasto-thermo-top-c-e-and-z-heater-parts/webasto-heater-smart-controller-9030026a?___SID=U

 

Would that work or would I also need a fuel pump, and bus controller? - (I'm happy to rewire the loom / swap the connectors etc)

 

Thanks for your advice so far

A couple of points, assuming your unit was fitted two years ago and by a proper Webasto tech and is a marine unit then you should have a three year, not two year warranty, that said electrolysis is not a manufacturing fault so warranty is a grey area. When it is re installed I would put a ground strap on it and probably even build in a small chamber in the outlet hose that will take a pencil anode which will help and check that regularly, new parts carry a one year warranty. The smart controller is the right one but you would also need a pump and loom, also some pipework relocation may be needed as the VEVO hoses both exit at the top, also beware of my point of the boiler possibly requiring an input from the car (universal kit excepted) as all VIVO are vehicle units and the EBay one may cause problems in that area.

[NMEA]

Just to add, we have 4 x 800x600 rads (looks like 850W each) plus a towel rail.

With the old Top E, they never got really hot, so perhaps a 5KW heater would be better (our boat is 65x11)

In that case the heater is fine, if anything it is over specified as the E is capable of powering up to 4.6kw, you only have about 4 to 4.5 depending on the towel rail, is the supply 22mm? If you have electrolytic corrosion the radiators may be sludged with the results of that from their internals, I assume you have no TRVs. The system in it's entirety may not be enough to heat the boat but the boiler is well matched to the radiators and if fitting a 5kw you will really need to add more load. My advice remains as before, don't fit a VIVO and make sure thae A/F is at 25% solution to give good heat transfer and change it every two years or as directed by the A/F manufacturer.

Edited March 21, 2015 by NMEA

[NMEA]

Forgot to say, the smart controller for water heaters is "run time limited" for vehicle usage, it can be reprogrammed via the tiny mini USB port in it but that requires the workshop electronics diagnostics kit.

[Tony Brooks]

I have had a recent question about galvanic corrosion that only appeared to start after fitting an AC motorised valve. A south coats Webasto "expert" seems to have washed their hands of it and so far it has required three new heat exchangers.

 

After much questioning and getting some answers that were far from clear it seemed to me as if it probably was galvanic corrosion with the cause open to question. The copper calorifier had a mains immersion heater fitted and did not get an answer as to the materials in the valve. I was assured that the correct strength of antifreeze was in use.

 

Now it seems to me that the liquid will form one "leg" of a galvanic circuit while the other could be formed by the earth on the valve or the calorifier, via the hull bond and then via the battery negative to the Webasto. I know the Alde demands about stainless calorifiers for the 3000 series boiler is not universally accepted here I think coppers cylinders and such like connected to the Webasto via the mains earth circuit and the battery negative could well be the cause.

 

I would add that the very least I would do is to fit a properly bonded MAGNESIUM anode close to the heat exchanger and maybe a galvanic isolator in the immersion heater's earth wire - despite it probably being illegal!

[NMEA]

As per my earlier post (and Tony's later reinforcement) I think the anode is important, one thing I would disagree with is the use of a Mag anode, we are not talking about Galvanic erosion here but rather stray current Electrolytic erosion, for that a metal just lower on the galvanic scale than the aluminium alloy of the exchanger would I feel be better, a pure aluminium one would probably be appropriate and last longer that Mag, however, that is moot and I would not strongly argue that point. I have used off the shelf adaptors available from the likes of car builder solutions which are intended for insertion of temperature senders but will take a pencil, that would make matters a little less costly as it would remove the need for a bespoke solution yet still make inspecting and changing the anode easy.

http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/in-line-temp-sender-housingair-bleeddrain-25mm

Edited March 21, 2015 by NMEA

[Lanners]

Thanks so much for taking the time for these replys both.

 

I will double check the warranty, it was fitted by the boat builder so I'm 99% sure it wont be by a certified webasto fitter (given other install problems)

 

The system is 22mm and the pipes coming off that to the rads are 15mm, the towel rail will be 22mm once I've made it (aprox 5 meters in total)

 

So I'll have to get a new exchanger for this one (can you recommend a good site for parts? or is the one I entered above good)

 

I will drain the system and replace the water / AF - should I flush it through with a hose? - I assume I drain from the engine bay at the lowest point? and is there a specific type of AF I should use?

I have one TRV on one rad in a small room that gets too warm - should I remove it?

 

I will install one of the anode things above, on the outlet water pipe from the heater - do I just use a bolt as the anode and earth that to the hull?

 

We also have a mains immersion so perhaps this is contributing to the problem and the above will solve it. - I really hope so!

 

Thanks again.

[NMEA]

Butler Technic are as good as any for price, even I can rarely beat them, I would back flush it with a hose then run it of some Fernox cleaner a couple of days before flushing again and putting in the A/F. Yes drain from the lowest point and just use a decent glycol A/F at 25% concentration. You can leave the TRV open completely or remove it, if it keeps reducing the thermal load the boiler is more likely to cycle. Just get a pencil anode and carrier from MG Duff and order the thread in the chamber to match it, the pencil will have a threaded carrier which is reusable. One other thing you could try is isolating the heater by mounting on bobbins and using fibre washers to isolate the skin fitting from the hull, Wallas factory compliant install are often done this way using Wallas parts designed for the job to protect the PCB from stray current, sadly those parts do not fit anything else.

Edited March 23, 2015 by NMEA

[Lanners]

Butler Technic are as good as any for price, even I can rarely beat them, I would back flush it with a hose then run it of some Fernox cleaner a couple of days before flushing again and putting in the A/F. Yes drain from the lowest point and just use a decent glycol A/F at 25% concentration. You can leave the TRV open completely or remove it, if it keeps reducing the thermal load the boiler is more likely to cycle. Just get a pencil anode and carrier from MG Duff and order the thread in the chamber to match it, the pencil will have a threaded carrier which is reusable. One other thing you could try is isolating the heater by mounting on bobbins and using fibre washers to isolate the skin fitting from the hull, Wallas factory compliant install are often done this way using Wallas parts designed for the job to protect the PCB from stray current, sadly those parts do not fit anything else.

Hi, thanks for this, its already mounted on a piece if ply so no contact to the hull, and I'll get the fibre washers to stop contact on the skin fitting.

 

Can you just confirm that I connect the pencil anode to the earth / hull?

 

Thanks again, just need to get the heater fixed now!

[NMEA]

Can you just confirm that I connect the pencil anode to the earth / hull?

 

Yes, an 8 AWG conductor would be appropriate.

[stuart]

Does the Smart Control unit listed above WEBASTO HEATER SMARTCONTROL 9030026A actually operate the VEVO or V model?

 

The Heater compatibility image seems to contradict itself, the little bullet points are not next to the WBus controlled units.

[stuart]

Actually, answered my own question, its NOT compatible according to page 77 of this...

 

http://www.webasto.com/fileadmin/webasto_files/documents/country-folder/great-britain/corporate/overall/uk-product-catalogue.pdf

 

You would need car controller part number "MultiController Car 9029783A"

[NMEA]

You would need car controller part number "MultiController Car 9029783A"

Indeed, but that unit is programmed a bit like the old 1533 to have time limitation, trouble is that you only had to add a cable to the 1533 to remove the limitation but the smart controller needs a mini USB adaptor, themotest software and a Thermotest unit. Even then some of the later car specifics W bus controlled units actually have a time limit on board, if you think getting some of the Thermo Top C & E vehicle units to work with a universal install then try a VEVO!

[Chalky]

The Thermotop V in automotive use is usually CAN controlled off the vehicle. As NMEA says it can also be controlled via W bus. They're fitted to a lot of current production vehicles.

 

If you've got an electronics background:-

W bus is an ISO9141 type bus and there's the C source code for a driver on source forge "Wbus driver". The physical layer can be implemented using an open collector transistor with a 1K2 1/2W pull up. It's a challenge response type protocol however if you code it carefully you can ignore the reponse and just send the messages. These need to be sent every 10 second to stop it timing out and shutting down. The commands are very simple Command, Data, Checksum. The only important ones are run (with a time value) and shutdown - though stopping sending the message has the same effect. The whole thing can be coded in Basic on a picaxe if you're careful.

[NMEA]

Being a Webasto dealer I have shied off saying something but I suppose I should say it really, whilst it is possible to get them operating I really wouldn't bother, they have been reduced in weight and size due to ever increasing demand from the automotive OEM market and I really don't feel they are up to the job of heating a boat for extended periods. The TTE & C are still being produced for that purpose and Webasto will not approve or supply the VEVO for non vehicle use which bears out my opinion (or is it the other way round), I would certainly not fit one if asked as I know it would disappoint down the line.

[stuart]

The Thermotop V in automotive use is usually CAN controlled off the vehicle. As NMEA says it can also be controlled via W bus. They're fitted to a lot of current production vehicles.

 

If you've got an electronics background:-

W bus is an ISO9141 type bus and there's the C source code for a driver on source forge "Wbus driver". The physical layer can be implemented using an open collector transistor with a 1K2 1/2W pull up. It's a challenge response type protocol however if you code it carefully you can ignore the reponse and just send the messages. These need to be sent every 10 second to stop it timing out and shutting down. The commands are very simple Command, Data, Checksum. The only important ones are run (with a time value) and shutdown - though stopping sending the message has the same effect. The whole thing can be coded in Basic on a picaxe if you're careful.

 

Yes, I'm aware of the WBus protocol - I've built an interface for it...

 

https://github.com/stuartpittaway/WebastoWBUSInterface

 

You do need to be careful to avoid getting the potential for 12v into a 3.3v or 5v controller though. Only using a simple circuit as described above I would frequently get timeout errors with the ThermoTest software - the circuit below never has this problem.

 

 

Being a Webasto dealer I have shied off saying something but I suppose I should say it really, whilst it is possible to get them operating I really wouldn't bother, they have been reduced in weight and size due to ever increasing demand from the automotive OEM market and I really don't feel they are up to the job of heating a boat for extended periods.

 

I agree with the notion that they are not suitable for long term use, I'm certainly tempted, purely because when fitted to cars, they are expected to last and run for many years without servicing, and additionally because they are so cheap, even if I got 2-3 years out of one, for £140 I can almost treat it as a disposable item.

 

I wouldn't use one as my only source of heating for live aboard usage, but for the chilly spring/autumn evening I quite like the idea.

 

Its quite simple (for me!) to knock together a microcontroller and get it working. I've got a ThermoTop V sitting on a bench in front of me - about 2 year old, Land Rover unit.

 

Its been operating in supplemental heating mode (300hrs), but works fine in parking mode as well.

Edited March 24, 2015 by stuart

[Chalky]

I looked at building something like a generator with a thermotop V, fuel pump, water pump, silencer and fluid reservoir in a small portable package. The idea was to use quick connect fittings on the water connections like the ones on a compressor and a connector to supply power / control and status. With a portable unit I could move it between the boat, garage, workshop etc as required. It's on the to-do list behind getting the MG back on the road and refitting the kitchen...

[stuart]

Thats a different idea!

 

Although given the relatively low price second hand, its just as easy to put in a perm. install.

[Lanners]

Butler Technic are as good as any for price, even I can rarely beat them, I would back flush it with a hose then run it of some Fernox cleaner a couple of days before flushing again and putting in the A/F. Yes drain from the lowest point and just use a decent glycol A/F at 25% concentration. You can leave the TRV open completely or remove it, if it keeps reducing the thermal load the boiler is more likely to cycle. Just get a pencil anode and carrier from MG Duff and order the thread in the chamber to match it, the pencil will have a threaded carrier which is reusable. One other thing you could try is isolating the heater by mounting on bobbins and using fibre washers to isolate the skin fitting from the hull, Wallas factory compliant install are often done this way using Wallas parts designed for the job to protect the PCB from stray current, sadly those parts do not fit anything else.

Probably a silly question, is the glycol AF ok to go in the river?, just trying to figure out how to drain / flush the system, was thinking I could use the bilge pump......

[NMEA]

Probably a silly question, is the glycol AF ok to go in the river?,

No question is silly, some anwers perehaps.

 

But.... Not the best idea, see safety data sheet. http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1678436.pdf