Living afloat & housing benefit?

[prob]

Has anyone had experience of claimimg housing benefit (for either mooring fees, or for the rent of a boat) whilst living afloat - or does Housing benefit only apply to abodes on dry land?!

[Orphiel]

Have not had experience, but I work for the CAB, and our info says that it is possible to claim HB for mooring fees. Does not unfortunately give any more info about how specifically to do it, though.

There is a section on the HB/CTB form asking if you live in a mobile home or houseboat, but the bit that may cause problems is that it asks if you pay rent, and mooring fees would have to qualify. Should do though, your problem may come when the council just gets confused about it.

Also, you'd have to be staying in one place, as HB is paid by the local council, and so if you moved into a different area, you'd have to apply somewhere else. In practice the waiting times they take to decide would make this pretty useless.

[nbtafelberg]

Yes I have heard of people getting HB for mooring fees

[Nige]

Hi Guys,

Just a quickie question here though - if you DID get HB for living on a HOUSEBOAT does that have to be one of those fixed types without an engine ? And if you lived full time on a NARROWBOAT would this be allowed ?

Also if you qualified for HB on a HOUSEBOAT does this then mean that you have to pay council tax as well (Or are you exempt if you claim HB etc?

 

 

 

 

Have not had experience, but I work for the CAB, and our info says that it is possible to claim HB for mooring fees. Does not unfortunately give any more info about how specifically to do it, though.

There is a section on the HB/CTB form asking if you live in a mobile home or houseboat, but the bit that may cause problems is that it asks if you pay rent, and mooring fees would have to qualify. Should do though, your problem may come when the council just gets confused about it.

Also, you'd have to be staying in one place, as HB is paid by the local council, and so if you moved into a different area, you'd have to apply somewhere else. In practice the waiting times they take to decide would make this pretty useless.

[prob]

Thanks for the responses. I guess there's three elements of 'housing' cost for the boat:

 

- mooring fees;

- licence fee; and

- either the cost of renting the boat from someone, or purchasing the boat and having interest repayments.

 

Any ideas if housing benefit would cover all of these?

 

Also, would a permanant mooring be necessary? I appreciate that if you move between areas that you would be dealing with different LAs, but if you were to continuously cruise within one authority?

 

If you were getting housing benefit it would mean immediate entitlement to council tax benefit.

 

Paul

[Gary Peacock]

Local athorities when involved in this kind of thing tend to rely on higher powers already predifined definitions for clarification, I susspect in this case they would use the HM R&C definition which is intened for different purposes but would make it hard to meet the definition.

[Dr Bradley]

Some years ago I worked in a jobcentre and dealt with several applications for Housing Benefit from liveaboards. It is available for mooring fees but not the license fee, hire of boat or interest on purchase. I always felt it should logically cover the license fee as well as that seems very similar to ground rent. It is also possible to get council tax benefit if this is charged.

 

The comment that it takes ages to process is perfectly correct but varies greatly between local authorities. It would only be viable for long term/permanent moorings.

 

It can be applied for whatever your boat is like, and a narrowboat certainly qualifies.

 

If someone is claiming another benefit then it can be applied for through the jobcentre (see directgov.gov.uk). If not apply to the LA housing office.

Edited February 13, 2007 by Dr Bradley

[Blue_skies]

Some years ago I worked in a jobcentre and dealt with several applications for Housing Benefit from liveaboards. It is available for mooring fees but not the license fee, hire of boat or interest on purchase. I always felt it should logically cover the license fee as well as that seems very similar to ground rent. It is also possible to get council tax benefit if this is charged.

 

The comment that it takes ages to process is perfectly correct but varies greatly between local authorities. It would only be viable for long term/permanent moorings.

 

It can be applied for whatever your boat is like, and a narrowboat certainly qualifies.

 

If someone is claiming another benefit then it can be applied for through the jobcentre (see directgov.gov.uk). If not apply to the LA housing office.

 

I believe (though someone may correct me) there is a 39 week wait with any new housing application, i.e. once you apply, you only get help towards housing costs after 39 weeks. There is no backdating for the 39 week period with a new application (you're on your own for that period, I believe). However, if you were moving from a housing situation where you were receiving housing benefit already, then so long as you found a new home (in this case boat) within six months, you should get continuous housing costs i.e. backdating, once the paperwork is sorted out. I would suggest a session with a specilist CAB advisor on this. You will get no sense from the benefits people asking a quation like this, they play everything close to their chest.

[david and julie]

A friend of ours recently applied for HB to cover the residential permit proportion of his costs. He was told he IS entitled to the benefit. The downside being he was also told that if he goes cruising the benefit stops as they don't pay for "leisure use".

 

Best to check where you personally stand, but based on the above it would seem CC on the social is unlikely.

 

There are some very jealous people about when it comes to boating, some see us all as wealthy. If you do get it, best keep it to yourself.

[Christine]

I believe (though someone may correct me) there is a 39 week wait with any new housing application, i.e. once you apply, you only get help towards housing costs after 39 weeks. There is no backdating for the 39 week period with a new application (you're on your own for that period, I believe). However, if you were moving from a housing situation where you were receiving housing benefit already, then so long as you found a new home (in this case boat) within six months, you should get continuous housing costs i.e. backdating, once the paperwork is sorted out. I would suggest a session with a specilist CAB advisor on this. You will get no sense from the benefits people asking a quation like this, they play everything close to their chest.

 

 

Housing Benefit is payable for rent and, if allowable, would pay from the date of claim (with a backdate if you can justify a late claim)

 

The 39 week period relates to mortgage payments and this would be for a mortgage interest payments for a house on dry land.

 

(I'm a CAB Welfare Benefits Specialist - PM me for specific advice if you wish)

[Dr Bradley]

I believe (though someone may correct me) there is a 39 week wait with any new housing application, i.e. once you apply, you only get help towards housing costs after 39 weeks. There is no backdating for the 39 week period with a new application (you're on your own for that period, I believe). However, if you were moving from a housing situation where you were receiving housing benefit already, then so long as you found a new home (in this case boat) within six months, you should get continuous housing costs i.e. backdating, once the paperwork is sorted out. I would suggest a session with a specilist CAB advisor on this. You will get no sense from the benefits people asking a quation like this, they play everything close to their chest.

 

I see Christine has already answered this correctley. What a shame. It's the first topic on the forum that I know something about.

 

CC'rs are unlikely to get any HB. See earlier post.

[Blue_skies]

I see Christine has already answered this correctley. What a shame. It's the first topic on the forum that I know something about.

 

CC'rs are unlikely to get any HB. See earlier post.

 

I'm not sure how this works with boat ownership (even with a boat loan), rather than renting a boat though. I've a feeling the mooring fees would be treated in a similar way to service charges on a flat rather than rent if you own the boat. And in this way, I believe the 39 week rule would apply. Again, I could be wrong.

[Dr Bradley]

I'm not sure how this works with boat ownership (even with a boat loan), rather than renting a boat though. I've a feeling the mooring fees would be treated in a similar way to service charges on a flat rather than rent if you own the boat. And in this way, I believe the 39 week rule would apply. Again, I could be wrong.

 

You will not get any HB relating to boat ownership, even interest on the loan. HB and a boat applies only to mooring costs.

[Blue_skies]

You will not get any HB relating to boat ownership, even interest on the loan. HB and a boat applies only to mooring costs.

Hi, yes, I understand that and my comment wasn't about interest on the loan. Rather, my point is that the rules do not seem to be clear about how mooring fees are handled if you own a boat*. They seem to contradict themselves. I don't know if there are any test cases out there but perhaps if one owns a boat, then the mooring fees are treated as service charges on a flat would be handled. There is an ownership issue going on here, a bit like how you can own a flat but pay service charges on the building. Does anyone know of any successful cases out there?

 

*Or are paying off a boat loan (though not attempting to claim help with interest)

[Alastair]

Blue_skies, it's actually fairly simple. HB will cover mooring fees in the same way that it will cover rent on ordinary accommodation.

[Christine]

DWP Technical Guidence states:

 

Houseboats

You may be able to get help through HB for your mooring fees or river license fee where this has to be paid for the boat to be in the water, but not for other costs associated with houseboats.

 

 

Housing Benefit

[Blue_skies]

DWP Technical Guidence states:

 

Houseboats

You may be able to get help through HB for your mooring fees or river license fee where this has to be paid for the boat to be in the water, but not for other costs associated with houseboats.

Housing Benefit

 

I think this is the problem, it's not cut and dried. "You may be able to..."

 

I did read one place in the regs where it contradicted itself specifically on this issue of mooring fees for a boat that was owned. (This wasn't on the website, this was in a reference book supplied to CAB). That's why I ask, are there any test cases out there? Is anyone actually doing this, claiming mooring fees through HB? This would shed light on things.

[Orphiel]

I believe the 39 week rule would apply.

 

Just to clear up the 39 week rule confusion, this is a rule for a completely different benefit, Income Support or JSA, which means you can get your interest on a mortgage paid as part of your IS/JSA after 39 weeks on the benefit.

Has nothing to do with either rent or Housing Benefit. You start getting HB from the time you apply for it.

[Blue_skies]

Just to clear up the 39 week rule confusion, this is a rule for a completely different benefit, Income Support or JSA, which means you can get your interest on a mortgage paid as part of your IS/JSA after 39 weeks on the benefit.

Has nothing to do with either rent or Housing Benefit. You start getting HB from the time you apply for it.

Sure, but the problem I'm alluding to is that if you own the boat, then mooring fees aren't necessarily considered rent, they could be treated in the way service charges are treated for an owned flat. If that is the case you wouldn't get help with the mooring fees until after 39 weeks if it is a new housing situation. Again, is anyone out there doing this? If someone is getting mooring fees paid as if rent while owning the boat, fair enough, but the rules, as I've read them contradict themselves and are not clear here.

[Dr Bradley]

Sure, but the problem I'm alluding to is that if you own the boat, then mooring fees aren't necessarily considered rent, they could be treated in the way service charges are treated for an owned flat. If that is the case you wouldn't get help with the mooring fees until after 39 weeks if it is a new housing situation. Again, is anyone out there doing this? If someone is getting mooring fees paid as if rent while owning the boat, fair enough, but the rules, as I've read them contradict themselves and are not clear here.

 

Owning or renting the boat will make no difference, you can still get HB for the mooring fees.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Dr Bradley

[Orphiel]

Sure, but the problem I'm alluding to is that if you own the boat, then mooring fees aren't necessarily considered rent, they could be treated in the way service charges are treated for an owned flat.

 

They could be, but they're not Is HB for mooring fees, as they are considered rent, whether you own the boat or not.

if you are looking for a specific example, both Dr. Bradley and davidandjulie had some examples of liveaboards claiming HB earlier in the thread, and realistically a boat to live on to rent is near impossible to find, so these were probably owned boats.

[david and julie]

They could be, but they're not Is HB for mooring fees, as they are considered rent, whether you own the boat or not.

if you are looking for a specific example, both Dr. Bradley and davidandjulie had some examples of liveaboards claiming HB earlier in the thread, and realistically a boat to live on to rent is near impossible to find, so these were probably owned boats.

In my quoted example the guy definately owns his boat outright.

 

Basically his situation is that he has been living aboard for several years and his marina is changing some of the moorings to residential status. He is faced with 3 separate charges, the residential part being by far the greatest, all must be paid. They are....

1. Licence.

2. Mooring.

3. Residential Permit.

 

He is away at the moment so I can't check with him, but I am absolutely 100% certain that he said they were only going to pay the residential proportion of the bill, he also stressed it stops if he goes cruising. He never said they were paying the mooring fee's and the ammount he will get does equate to just the residential part.(3)

 

I don't know if it makes any difference but the change in his situation was not of his own making and if the additional cost were not met he would in effect be homeless, so he isn't doing this by choice.

[Blue_skies]

In my quoted example the guy definately owns his boat outright.

 

Basically his situation is that he has been living aboard for several years and his marina is changing some of the moorings to residential status. He is faced with 3 separate charges, the residential part being by far the greatest, all must be paid. They are....

1. Licence.

2. Mooring.

3. Residential Permit.

 

He is away at the moment so I can't check with him, but I am absolutely 100% certain that he said they were only going to pay the residential proportion of the bill, he also stressed it stops if he goes cruising. He never said they were paying the mooring fee's and the ammount he will get does equate to just the residential part.(3)

 

I don't know if it makes any difference but the change in his situation was not of his own making and if the additional cost were not met he would in effect be homeless, so he isn't doing this by choice.

Interesting. I think this illustrates just how difficult to navigate these waters are! One thing I don't quite understand. I guess the marina has changed his mooring status to "residential status". Can you tell me, what was his mooring status before? Also, in its former status did HB pay all his fees connected with the marina (however they broke down)?

[Blue_skies]

They could be, but they're not Is HB for mooring fees, as they are considered rent, whether you own the boat or not.

if you are looking for a specific example, both Dr. Bradley and davidandjulie had some examples of liveaboards claiming HB earlier in the thread, and realistically a boat to live on to rent is near impossible to find, so these were probably owned boats.

 

Hi Orphiel, I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact, it makes sense for you to be right and I hope you are However, the rules do seem to be very clear about HB paying mooring fees if you rent a boat (and yes, the practicalities are that very few people do rent residentially) but not clear with regard to those owning a boat. It's just the language used in the rules. I'm not sure the examples given do illustrate your point (Dr Bradley said he was involved some time ago, and rules change year by year).

 

There seems to be a "may be able to" attitude from the HB system with regard to mooring fees. I think the above example from davidandjulie hints at this and perhaps it depends on how the marina presents its business as to whether HB coughs up? The benefits system does tend to present itself to 'customers' as "Apply and we'll then tell you yes or no" rather than make themselves clear upfront.

[Christine]

Housing Benefit is claimed by completing a HB claim form from the Local Authority, returning it to the relevant authority and supplying any further information as required. The Decision maker uses the Guidance Manual (interpretation of the regulations) to make a determination on that claim.

 

If the claimant is dissatisfied with the decision a request for the matter to be reconsidered by the Decision Maker or appealed (when the matter will be reconsidered in the first instance) and then set down for a hearing where the LA may make written representations and be represented by a Housing Benefit Presenting Officer (but they don't always turn up).

 

The appellant equally can make written and oral representations to the Tribunal composed of an independent legally qualified chairman (solicitor) sitting alone.

 

The Chairman can only be make a decision within the HB regulations but could be asked to consider the decisions of a higher court. In such a case of HB for a boat:

 

Commissioners Decision

 

may be applicable. In this case BW licence and mooring fee was permitted to be paid by way of HB.

 

Unfortunately HB is determined in the first instance by the LA's decision maker and any claim that is a bit outside the regulations may have to be appealed.