Lister Canalstar, 4 Cyl Alpha Series

[Matthew Dowson]

We have some problems with our new boat, currently we have an 38 hp Lister Canalstar, 4 Cyl Alpha Series engine that won't fire despite all the batteries we throw at it, it'll turn over very slowly and the starter is drawing a huge amount of power in the process. We're trying to find someone who knows these engines and their associated electronics, please let me know if you know anyone. Also needed are detailed electrical diagrams for the engine, I'll have a hunt on the interweb, but any suggestions welcome. It'll be into January before we get this work in hand.

 

We only acquired the boat in November, and I think being mainly on shore power has masked some of the electrical problems, only since we moved her from Wakefield up to Apperley bridge on the L & L have the problems become apparant. Batteries not charging, and a totally dead system when in Leeds due to make the last passage up through to Newlay on Saturday 23/12, only thanks to Dave and Yvonne were we able to make the passage, we breasted up to their boat Reynard, and got up to Rodley. Aren't people amazing. They sell excellent ropes as well.

 

Happy Christmas.

Edited December 24, 2006 by Matthew Dowson

[andywatson]

We have some problems with our new boat, currently we have an 38 hp Lister Canalstar, 4 Cyl Alpha Series engine that won't fire despite all the batteries we throw at it, it'll turn over very slowly and the starter is drawing a huge amount of power in the process. We're trying to find someone who knows these engines and their associated electronics, please let me know if you know anyone. Also needed are detailed electrical diagrams for the engine, I'll have a hunt on the interweb, but any suggestions welcome. It'll be into January before we get this work in hand.

 

We only acquired the boat in November, and I think being mainly on shore power has masked some of the electrical problems, only since we moved her from Wakefield up to Apperley bridge on the L & L have the problems become apparant. Batteries not charging, and a totally dead system when in Leeds due to make the last passage up through to Newlay on Saturday 23/12, only thanks to Dave and Yvonne were we able to make the passage, we breasted up to their boat Reynard, and got up to Rodley. Aren't people amazing. They sell excellent ropes as well.

 

Happy Christmas.

 

I had a similar problem when first got my boat in similar circumstances ie boat having stood, used shore power etc then got it back almost to Derby From Fenny Compton where it developed a HOT starting problem.

 

try the following, easiest first:

Check electolyte with hydrometer and voltmeter etc

Clean battery terminals.

Check isolating switch (consider bypassing it as a test)

Check and clean all cables, connections and terminals that you can get to

 

Finally it might be the starter motor itself - mine had a bearing that seized when hot from engine but started ok when cold which kept giving me false hopes after each apparently successful fix.

 

If you have a multi meter check the voltage to the starter when you attempt a start.

If it's less than 10v- suspect batteries

If it's 10-12v suspect the motor itself

 

Decent "old world" traditional auto electricians have a machine they can put your starter onto to test it so see what you can find locally.

For the benefit of anyone in the East Midlands I can recommend Whyatts on 01159 390634

 

I'm sure plenty of others are going to add to this one................

Good luck

[Matthew Dowson]

The engineer who had a 1 hr failed starting session yesterday P.M said investigation of the starter would be one thing to try, he just didn't have time, due to imminence of Christmas, it will be Jan before we progress this now. The starter batt, which was new a few weeks before, had certainly been drained somehow, and the engineers big starter batt was going the same way. We're back on shore power now, so will see on boxing day if the newly charged batt will do the business. We will get to the bottom of it in due course, we have a guy that we will probably use, but I was interested if I could track down someone close-by who had specific experience of the Canalstar engine if it's a problem with its electronics specifically. Thanks Andy for your comments. Oak Moon has also been stood since the summer on brokerage, nothing mechanical benefits from lack of use does it.

[Keeping Up]

From my (rather limited) experience of them, Lister engine starters do have a habit of going faulty in such a way that they take extra current without doing anything useful with it. The only cure is a new or re-wound starter.

 

Allan

[alan_fincher]

I had a similar problem when first got my boat in similar circumstances ie boat having stood, used shore power etc then got it back almost to Derby From Fenny Compton where it developed a HOT starting problem.

 

try the following, easiest first:

Check electolyte with hydrometer and voltmeter etc

Clean battery terminals.

Check isolating switch (consider bypassing it as a test)

Check and clean all cables, connections and terminals that you can get to

 

Finally it might be the starter motor itself - mine had a bearing that seized when hot from engine but started ok when cold which kept giving me false hopes after each apparently successful fix.

 

If you have a multi meter check the voltage to the starter when you attempt a start.

If it's less than 10v- suspect batteries

If it's 10-12v suspect the motor itself

 

Decent "old world" traditional auto electricians have a machine they can put your starter onto to test it so see what you can find locally.

For the benefit of anyone in the East Midlands I can recommend Whyatts on 01159 390634

 

I'm sure plenty of others are going to add to this one................

Good luck

All sounds like good advice to me.

 

I don't want to enter into the arguments about how misleading voltmeters can be in some circumstances, but in others I think they can be a godsend, (and don't need to be highly accurate)......

 

If you are trying to crank the engine, and it's not turning fast, then as well as measuring volts across the starter motor, I reckon it's also worth doing the same across the starter battery (also whilst cranking).

 

If volts are low at the starter motor, but much better at the battery, then some connection, cable, switch, or solenoid somewhere in between, (or a combination of these), must be accounting for the difference. Again you can then find out much by putting the voltmeter across anything that might be suspect. (For example across the isolator switch, which if its making sound contact, should not have much of a volts drop across it, even at normal starter currents).

 

When I had starting problems, it was the internal contacts in the solenoid that are supposed to carry the starter current that was the issue. It was also a typical case that had occurred because the boat had largely been out of use for many months before we bought it - the old contacts had simply turned horribly green and corroded through lack of use. (The boat's not a "damp" one, but 4" of water and grot under the engine, not far from the starter, was probably not helping, until we cleaned it out). A replacement "end cap" on the solenoid cured things completely, so not a big expense in our case.

 

On the other hand, if voltage across the starter motor when cranking is broadly the same as what's across the battery, you can be reasonably confident that all the bits in the circuit are not adding to the problem. It sounds like you have tried with a known good battery, so I also think the problem is likely to be something else.

 

Good luck, when you get around to further investigations.....

 

Alan

[DHutch]

Yeah, it does sound like a problem with the starter.

- If the batterys are, or have been, fully charged. And the engine has run recently (so isnt stuck/seazed) but it still isnt turning over properly... Its not like there any complex electronics between the battery and the starter!

 

Also, from you comment about "trying again when the battery is back up" i presume your mains charger charges the starter battery as well as the domestic?

- Just that not all do, and its well worth not leaving a new battery flat for more time that you can help. Lead acids dont like being flat.

 

 

Daniel

 

If you are trying to crank the engine, and it's not turning fast, then as well as measuring volts across the starter motor, I reckon it's also worth doing the same across the starter battery (also whilst cranking).

 

If volts are low at the starter motor, but much better at the battery, then some connection, cable, switch, or solenoid somewhere in between, (or a combination of these), must be accounting for the difference. Again you can then find out much by putting the voltmeter across anything that might be suspect. (For example across the isolator switch, which if its making sound contact, should not have much of a volts drop across it, even at normal starter currents).

Our posts crossed, but that is good advise, both specifacaly, and in general the method of breaking down the problem.

- If the batterys are seen to be good, which they do, then looking at the cabling is a good next step. And theres no better way that as alan descibes. See if theres a problem in that area, and then if there is, try to narrow it down as much as you can. Even if you dont get to the bottom if it, you can often save the expert a lot of donkey work. Which if you paying them by hour is always good!

 

 

Daniel

[Matthew Dowson]

Seems good manners to complete the thread. When down in the engine, I decided to check all connections, and there are two plugs which go into the Lister electronics box, and one went in a long way when I pushed it. And I got the engine started, ran fine on a 1 hour jaunt the other day but still not sure if there's still another problem or if this cable got knocked when we were trying numerous attempts to jump start the starter. So advice received about working the problem rather than leaping to solutions is right on the money. I still have some investigating to do.

[DHutch]

Great! Glad you seam to have got it fixed, for now altlease. And thanks indeed for posting back to let us know.

 

 

Daniel

[nb maggie]

Just to let you know I have one of these engines too, had it a few years and now know my way around it quite well.