HOT WIRING AN ENGINE

[John Orentas]

FORTUNATA wrote.

 

 

 

Irrespective of any other issues, you appear to say the engine isolater is on the negative lead.

 

Is this thread a wind up?

 

 

David.

 

It was at one time common practise to put the battery isolator in the negative supply. This was often done when retrospective fitting of an isolator was required when the BSS regulations first came out, many boats are wired in this way today.

 

In this way only one isolator is required for the entire system whereas now most electrical systems have two isolators fitted.

[FORTUNATA]

No worries (as the Aussies say). I never had any illusion I'd be able undertake any major mechanical work at this stage and I have been actively seeking out an auto mechanic. In fact, I've finally found one and this is a guy who strips VW engines down all the time. So hopefully he can help.

Let me explain something about my fuel-injection pump: The last mechanic certainly knew something but what worried me a little was he mentioned he had tried to get my pump off and couldn't do it. If that's the case, it's not surprising. To take my pump off you need to remove the alternator belt, line up the timing marks by rotating the camshaft and then jam both the camshaft and the injection pump sprocket. Then it's a matter of slackening the tensioner, taking off the timing belt and then removing the pump itself with a VW puller tool.

Supposing he had tried to remove the pump that's the correct manner. However, I'm not sure whether it would be possible to actually alter the position of the pump without slackening the tensioner e.t.c. All I can say for sure is I did notice the scribed line on my fuel-injection pump doesn't match the mark on the housing - althoug this is sometimes common if a pump has been reset sometime in the past.

 

Your worring me. What does your book say about timing the injection pump? On a comman rail it would not matter but your is old and I think it does. I baffled as to how old the engine is because some of the things you describe are misleading me ie your starter motor. The fault sounded like an old type motor but in common there was not enough power to it.

 

I dont think that you can safely start your engine now because of the fuel injection pump. If you do start it, it might get damaged. I think you need to employ someone with knowledge of this particular engine to help you. You cannot get anything done unless your starter battery is in tip top condition. You should also try to hand rotate the pump to ensure that it has not rusted stuck. You can do this by undoing the HP pipes and drive belt then get a spanner on the end of it. If it freely rotates OK, if not bad news. This is not easy. You are running out of daylight so it might be worth rigging a lighting system in the boat powered off of you geny. This will also help trickle charge your bats.

 

Good luck.

[FORTUNATA]

Apparently fuel-injection pumps can be reset according to the Haynes manual. I notice what Haynes tells you to do in many cases is to remove the valve cover and rotate the crankshaft till the timing marks line up around the bellhousing. The fuel injection pump sprocket and pump housing should also be lined up against the body via scribed lines. The cam lobes for no 1 cylinder should be pointed upwards. Finally the camshaft and injection sprocket are jammed into position while the tension is released from the belt e.t.c. For my pump, you have to actually remove the timing belt but I have a feeling this isn't always the case for brand name marine diesels. I also heard that the British Leyland engine has a pump that's merely fitted into splines which automatically takes care of the timing.

The point I guess I'm trying to make is that a genuine marine engine may well be different from my converted vehicle engine. This is why the marine engineer who offered me a hand may have been stumped by my pump.

As for what John Orentas remarked, yes, he's right. My negative battery wire does indeed lead to the battery isolator terminal and I notice there's another negative lead then fixed to that same terminal and this may be wired to my alternator (it disappears somewhere nearby the alternator).

 

I wouldnt think the injection pump timing will do any damage. You may find either white, black smoke or it will not go. The cam timing may do some damage if its wrong but thats unlikely unless the belt/chain is broken as it would never have run then anyway.

[FORTUNATA]

I suppose there's a funny side to this story. The first time we ever attempted to start her up, I was with a neighbour on board and he told me to try and turn on the ignition. This was when the boat was still wired before I removed the panel.

I turned the key and then my neighbour suddenly started to panic and shouted for me to turn it off. He was wafting a newspaper and there were billows of smoke coming from behind the control panel. It was like 2 or 3 kettles going on full steam and you could smell the burning. I'll never forget his exact words:

"I should get shot of it if I were you!"

Of course, now I know a bit more about electrics than I knew a year ago, it was obvious all the frayed wires were shorting out plus rain had been getting in. I renewed all the crimps.

I find it odd that in my area, fibreglass boat-owners don't seem to maintain their boats or don't take health and safety seriously enough. I've seen similar cases on the marinas - boats with rotting rubbing strips and look like they've never been painted for 50 years. The narrowboats tend to be better cared for, though.

Mine doesn't look too bad at all now. Cosmetically there is a huge difference. My plan now is to simply get the engine running and get plenty of good quality motor oil in the galley. Once she's running, I'll fit a proper cockpit cover and then it will be dry enough to sort out the wiring. The boat is no longer dangerous.

 

 

FORTUNATA wrote.

 

 

 

Irrespective of any other issues, you appear to say the engine isolater is on the negative lead.

 

Is this thread a wind up?

[david and julie]

David.

 

It was at one time common practise to put the battery isolator in the negative supply. This was often done when retrospective fitting of an isolator was required when the BSS regulations first came out, many boats are wired in this way today.

 

In this way only one isolator is required for the entire system whereas now most electrical systems have two isolators fitted.

 

Fair enough John, I can see it would be both easier and cheaper to do it that way.

[Hairy-Neil]

Its not unusual either to find two solenoids in the starting system. Some steel boats have a second solenoid in the engine earth lead so that the hull only becomes earthed for the few seconds when the engine is cranking over to start.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Hairy-Neil

[FORTUNATA]

I've spent a couple of hours going into this matter this evening. I have a Bosch pump. I now understand that if somebody has tried to remove the pump for whatever reason, this can alter the lift which should be 0.85 as I recall. By the injector pipes there is a plug that a gauge can be fitted to measure and set the lift. In some cases, the pump timing may even be out of synch with the valves although I know this isn't the case with my engine.

Even so, it could well be the case that the pump has been moved and this would alter the 0.85 lift which is set by the manual.

I think it would do no harm to mention this to the diesel mechanic and see what he thinks. As he's a V.W. man he's almost certainly have the guage that's required to adjust the pump.

Am I correct in my belief that some marine engine injection pumps can simply be removed without having to remove the timing belt?

 

 

 

I agree with Yammy no damage can be done even if the pump timing is wrong, someone has probably moved it at some time to improve running. You can worry about getting the timing exact when you have got the engine running.

 

The camshaft timing is another matter as long as that has not been moved you have no real problems. If you are really worried remove the heater plugs and try rotating the engine by hand,

[rayman]

Do not worry in the slightiest about moving your pump, if it does damage, i will pay for it, spin your pump whilst the engine is running, you will get a "feel" when it is running right

[david and julie]

As an aside, I agree that wrong injection pump timing may not cause mechanical damage to a push rod engine, I would nonetheless be wary on a belt driven OHC unit. An aged or contaminated belt may snap or strip if the injection timing was badly out and this engine as been unused for a while.

 

Personally, I would fit a new belt and rotate the engine a few times by hand, before attempting to start it, just to be on the safe side.

Edited October 4, 2006 by david and julie

[FORTUNATA]

It seems to me there's a lesson to be learned here. All in all, the boat owner is far better off getting a qualified, specialized engineer if that's at all possible. I now have one fortunately. It may well turn out to be expensive but, when all is said and done, the engineer I found has the guages, VW tools and works exclusively with VW engines.

I'm sure the last guy I had knows far more than I do but I do think he was not so clued up on a VW engine. If he was trying to remove the injection pump without slackening the tensioner and sprocket e.t.c., this would have just altered the lift on the pump and the pump won't come off. In fact the manual refers you back to the first chapter for injection pump removal and this involves removing the timing belt beforehand and then freeing the sprocket to the pump.

I think this is why most marine mechanics have told me in the past they don't want to get involved with anything except a narrowboat engine such as Beta Marine or Lister e.t.c. More than likely they know how that particular engine is laid out.

I was discussing this with a boat engineer the other week on the phone. He recommended I find a good garage mechanic.

All we need to do is check the lift reading to be safe, sort out some kind of primer to get the air out and hopefully start her up. I'll be interested what he has to say about the bleeding system on my engine. All I have is a vent plug on my filter and there is no primer pump attached. Haynes recommends a different way of priming for Bosch or CAV.

 

 

Do not worry in the slightiest about moving your pump, if it does damage, i will pay for it, spin your pump whilst the engine is running, you will get a "feel" when it is running right

[FORTUNATA]

If the lift on the pump has been altered, I imagine it will make for a rough running engine although, yes, this is not as serious as a timing belt being put on incorrectly.

My cousin changed my timing belt for me not too long ago so it's a new one. I noticed he didn't do it the Haynes way but marked it instead. The Haynes manual doesn't show that method which is far quicker. Haynes has you fixing the timing marks by rotating the crankshaft and jamming the camshaft e.t.c.

 

As an aside, I agree that wrong injection pump timing may not cause mechanical damage to a push rod engine, I would nonetheless be wary on a belt driven OHC unit. An aged or contaminated belt may snap or strip if the injection timing was badly out and this engine as been unused for a while.

 

Personally, I would fit a new belt and rotate the engine a few times by hand, before attempting to start it, just to be on the safe side.

[Hairy-Neil]

My cousin changed my timing belt for me not too long ago so it's a new one. I noticed he didn't do it the Haynes way but marked it instead. The Haynes manual doesn't show that method which is far quicker. Haynes has you fixing the timing marks by rotating the crankshaft and jamming the camshaft e.t.c.

 

I reckon to slit the old belt down the middle and remove the outer half (I've seen mechanics do it with the engine running but wouldn't recommend it..... ) . Then I slide the new belt half on, cut the remains of the old belt off and slide the new one right home. Diesels mostly need the pump timing checking after a new belt is fitted due to minor differences in new belt length.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Hairy-Neil

[FORTUNATA]

The Haynes manual doesn't tell you the easiest way of changing a timing belt. Mainly it stresses the need to line up the timing marks and these include the injection pump sprocket and the pump housing and checking the lobes are facing up on cyclinder no 1 e.t.c. e.t.c.

My cousin is very good but he's too busy building aircraft and servicing cars. He did do the timing belt for me, though. Since then I've not had much luck with mechanics but I keep my fingers crossed this latest guy might be O.K. He does represent a large diesel firm and has a lot of experience. The only danger is he may not want to work in this kind of weather or in cramped conditions. If he lets me down, then the gloves will come off and I'll carry on by myself and that will be that. I'd start by getting rid of that crazy engine box which, to my mind, is just nuts - blocking half the engine off so you can't reach it.

 

I reckon to slit the old belt down the middle and remove the outer half (I've seen mechanics do it with the engine running but wouldn't recommend it..... ) . Then I slide the new belt half on, cut the remains of the old belt off and slide the new one right home. Diesels mostly need the pump timing checking after a new belt is fitted due to minor differences in new belt length.

 

 

I find the engineering aspect of boating to be interesting. The more I read, the more I realise how little I know but I do see progress. I'm convinced that if you can crack the engineering aspect, boatkeeping isn't such an expensive hobby at all. However, some of the stuff boggles my mind, especially the timing methods using guages and instruments.

 

I reckon to slit the old belt down the middle and remove the outer half (I've seen mechanics do it with the engine running but wouldn't recommend it..... ) . Then I slide the new belt half on, cut the remains of the old belt off and slide the new one right home. Diesels mostly need the pump timing checking after a new belt is fitted due to minor differences in new belt length.

[DHutch]

I reckon to slit the old belt down the middle and remove the outer half (I've seen mechanics do it with the engine running but wouldn't recommend it..... ) . Then I slide the new belt half on, cut the remains of the old belt off and slide the new one right home. Diesels mostly need the pump timing checking after a new belt is fitted due to minor differences in new belt length.

Yeah, the only belt ive ever seen changed was done just like that.

- Run a knife on the belt while t'engines runing, the slide of half, slide on new one, cut off 2nd half.

- Its might not be right... But it will be the same, and if it ran before, it shold run again!

 

Timing marks can be misleading sometimes as well, someone in the karting team once rebuilt a c90 engine with the timing 180degrees out. There a fourstroke, with lost spark. So theres to ways it looks "right" with the timing marks.

- Didnt take very long to find out why i wouldnt start once the petrol was dripping out of the, now soaked, air filter!

 

 

Daniel

[FORTUNATA]

I suppose my cousin would have started by pushing the alternator aside and removing the belt. He'd have removed the belt guards too. Then, I figure he'd have locked the camshaft with a bar and probably jammed the injection pump sprocket. No need to take the valve cover off this way. Next it would be a matter of marking the timing belt and just slackening the tensioner and the belt should come off. I don't know of you'd need to free the fuel injection pump sprocket as well in order to remove the said belt.

I'm not sure, though, how he did it. The Haynes only gives you the 100 per cent by the book method. Apparently the timing marks usually always are accurate except for the injection pump marks that sometimes are off if the pump has been reset in the past.

 

Yeah, the only belt ive ever seen changed was done just like that.

- Run a knife on the belt while t'engines runing, the slide of half, slide on new one, cut off 2nd half.

- Its might not be right... But it will be the same, and if it ran before, it shold run again!

 

Timing marks can be misleading sometimes as well, someone in the karting team once rebuilt a c90 engine with the timing 180degrees out. There a fourstroke, with lost spark. So theres to ways it looks "right" with the timing marks.

- Didnt take very long to find out why i wouldnt start once the petrol was dripping out of the, now soaked, air filter!

Daniel

 

 

I assume most of you guys have proper marine brand name diesels whereas my engine is more of a "kit job" - an old auto engine modified and stuck in a box.

Had I known I'd have had to do so much reading of books and swatting up, I figure I'd have kept the outboard boat I originally had and then bought a decent outboard engine for it. I never intended to cruise a lot of miles to be honest and just fancied the odd trip out to relax.

 

Yeah, the only belt ive ever seen changed was done just like that.

- Run a knife on the belt while t'engines runing, the slide of half, slide on new one, cut off 2nd half.

- Its might not be right... But it will be the same, and if it ran before, it shold run again!

 

Timing marks can be misleading sometimes as well, someone in the karting team once rebuilt a c90 engine with the timing 180degrees out. There a fourstroke, with lost spark. So theres to ways it looks "right" with the timing marks.

- Didnt take very long to find out why i wouldnt start once the petrol was dripping out of the, now soaked, air filter!

Daniel

[John Orentas]

Fortuna.

 

Don't knock your engine before you have even seen it running, why do you imagine it has been ripped out of an old car or van. There were at one time several marinisers where using the VW engine out of choice and the diesel golfs were and still are very good cars, it was only the introduction of cheap Japanese industrial engines that led to their loss of popularity for boat engines.

 

I think you have persuaded yourself that the engine is a dog. Get the thing running and evaluate your situation from there, plenty of time to think about fine tuning the injection timing and fitting of new belt after you have a running engine.

[FORTUNATA]

Point taken. I haven't been down for a few days due to the weather but I'll be meeting the diesel mechanic next week. I'll start by showing him the layout of the boat i.e. isolation switch, battery compartment fuel location e.t.c. I'll definitely keep everybody who followed this thread informed as to how things develop from there. For all I know, the engine could be fine but we'll see.

 

Fortuna.

 

Don't knock your engine before you have even seen it running, why do you imagine it has been ripped out of an old car or van. There were at one time several marinisers where using the VW engine out of choice and the diesel golfs were and still are very good cars, it was only the introduction of cheap Japanese industrial engines that led to their loss of popularity for boat engines.

 

I think you have persuaded yourself that the engine is a dog. Get the thing running and evaluate your situation from there, plenty of time to think about fine tuning the injection timing and fitting of new belt after you have a running engine.

[Yoda]

Point taken. I haven't been down for a few days due to the weather but I'll be meeting the diesel mechanic next week. I'll start by showing him the layout of the boat i.e. isolation switch, battery compartment fuel location e.t.c. I'll definitely keep everybody who followed this thread informed as to how things develop from there. For all I know, the engine could be fine but we'll see.

 

Don't confuse him. Just get the engine running and you will feel better.

 

I did not realise that the cam timing is also the injector pump drive belt. You will ensure the correct cam timing and injector timing before trying to start the engine, otherwise you will be using an outboard.

 

I had a forage under my wifes (car) bonnet and found an old VW turbo desiel. It is nearly new so you can't have it but you did give me an idea.

 

If you are doing any work on an engine or gearbox, give yourself some room to work.

[FORTUNATA]

To let you all know what's happening........

I've been tied down at work and have done nothing so far and added to that the weather has rained me off. The bad news is the mechanic turned out to be another time-waster and keeps postponing for weeks ahead. I'm going to have to carry on by myself but I'd appreciate any helpful comments on the injection pump. If there is a risk to the engine I can't afford to start it up unless I test the pump is set right.

I can say for sure the valve timing will be O.K. I know the last guy wouldn't have removed the cambelt but he'd have loosened the injector pump sprockets and tried to pull it off - impossible unless the tensioner is slackened and the cambelt removed. So, it's the lift (normally set at 0.85) that will be out, if at all. You can see how the scribed line isn't lined with the housing - almost a quarter of an inch out but I don't know if it had been reset at some point.

I'm thinking about writing to BW about the problem to see if they can help. I know BW has more professional mechanics who come out to help stranded boaters although I'm not sure if they do this only in emergencies. However, my feeling is it looks like I'm going to have to fix up and wire my own boat by my lonesome. It will be O.K. but it will take time.

 

Don't confuse him. Just get the engine running and you will feel better.

 

I did not realise that the cam timing is also the injector pump drive belt. You will ensure the correct cam timing and injector timing before trying to start the engine, otherwise you will be using an outboard.

 

I had a forage under my wifes (car) bonnet and found an old VW turbo desiel. It is nearly new so you can't have it but you did give me an idea.

 

If you are doing any work on an engine or gearbox, give yourself some room to work.

 

 

The pump is driven by the cambelt via the injection pump sprocket. I hjave a feeling other pumps on marine engines can be removed without any problem as they slot into splines that automatically ensure the timing of the pump will be in synch. This is accordin to one of my books called Diesel Engine Maintanance.

 

Don't confuse him. Just get the engine running and you will feel better.

 

I did not realise that the cam timing is also the injector pump drive belt. You will ensure the correct cam timing and injector timing before trying to start the engine, otherwise you will be using an outboard.

 

I had a forage under my wifes (car) bonnet and found an old VW turbo desiel. It is nearly new so you can't have it but you did give me an idea.

 

If you are doing any work on an engine or gearbox, give yourself some room to work.

[John Orentas]

Fortuna.

 

Are you serious about BW? either way forget about that. You have had an awful lot of threads on this 99% of them very sensible plus loads of Pm's from me and presumably others.

 

Have you any real reason to suspect that someone has moved the camshaft timing, the pump timing I suspect has been moved a little but this is not uncommon with and engine that is getting on a bit.

 

If you can rotate the engine by hand with the heater plugs removed the overwhelming chances are that the valve timing has not been altered by anyone so you are safe to attempt to start the engine, if the pump timing is a long way out you won't do any damage, it just won't start.

 

If you are a real pessimist take some time and check that all the timing marks are as they should be according to the manual.

 

Quote, from ages ago:

 

"I obviously dont know, about your case but from past experience, get the area around your engine clutter free and generally clean, tidy and accessible, you will be surprised how much easier everthing will be".

Edited October 9, 2006 by John Orentas

[david and julie]

I don't know enough about this particularly make of engine to guide you.

 

But generally speaking not all modern engines have timing marks. It is quite common to use special tools (like brackets) which bolt to certain area's on the engine and are used to time both Cam and Pump whilst holding the engine at TDC. Although the injection pump may have a way of fine tuning it, this is not always the case.

 

The reason for these special tools is so that engines can be assembled with less chance of human error causing damage. This is more important on modern engines where the distance between pistons and valves is much closer than engines of old. In some instances(and at certain times) they very nearly touch each other due to the camshaft overlap/duration which is why I said fit a new belt then turn the engine by hand.

 

I have just googled and come up with this site which may help you.

http://www.volkswagenforum.co.uk/

 

I would just ask them how to fit a cambelt and time the engine.

 

There are other similar sites if the above one can't help.

[FORTUNATA]

I needed to be sure about the timing. I asked a diesel specialist by phone today at a store and so I came out with a plan. This will involve fitting a fuel-lift pump which is not so difficult to do apparently. As for the pump timing, there is a guage I could choose to buy if I want to do things strictly by the book. However, I agree that if the pump lift has been altered by fiddling it won't knacker the engine as I feared.

According to what I can gather, injection pumps tend to differ. Mine is mounted on a plate by bolts so it doesn't slide into a spline which is why I needed to be sure over the timing issue.

 

 

 

Fortuna.

 

Are you serious about BW? either way forget about that. You have had an awful lot of threads on this 99% of them very sensible plus loads of Pm's from me and presumably others.

 

Have you any real reason to suspect that someone has moved the camshaft timing, the pump timing I suspect has been moved a little but this is not uncommon with and engine that is getting on a bit.

 

If you can rotate the engine by hand with the heater plugs removed the overwhelming chances are that the valve timing has not been altered by anyone so you are safe to attempt to start the engine, if the pump timing is a long way out you won't do any damage, it just won't start.

 

If you are a real pessimist take some time and check that all the timing marks are as they should be according to the manual.

 

Quote, from ages ago:

 

"I obviously dont know, about your case but from past experience, get the area around your engine clutter free and generally clean, tidy and accessible, you will be surprised how much easier everthing will be".

[FORTUNATA]

The timing belt is brand new with no wear or splits.

I guess I'd better clarify to people what I meant about BW. I wasn't going to write to BW with regard to my injection pump per se but in order to ask about boat servicing as a whole. As it is, I work fairly long hours and then I have to cycle quite some distance to actually get to my boat so time is my main enemy.

The pump lift timing is apparently set by a guage that screws into the injector pump once you remove a central plug on the rotor. The first thing is to locate the timing mark that is visible if you remove a stopper on the bell-housing and rotate the crankshaft. Then you screw in the guage and turn the crankshaft anti-clockwise till the guage reader ceases to move. You then zero the guage and rotate the crankshaft till the guage reads 0.85. At that point the fuel-lift pump bolts should be tightened and that sets the lift.

I needed to find out what would happen if the lift had been altered. As it stands, it would appear this isn't such a major problem but at some point I'll probably get hold of the guage - maybe second hand. The new guage costs some 30 pounds.

However, if you're removing and refitting an injection pump on my VW engine that really is more complicated. Fortunately, I don't have to do that.

 

 

I don't know enough about this particularly make of engine to guide you.

 

But generally speaking not all modern engines have timing marks. It is quite common to use special tools (like brackets) which bolt to certain area's on the engine and are used to time both Cam and Pump whilst holding the engine at TDC. Although the injection pump may have a way of fine tuning it, this is not always the case.

 

The reason for these special tools is so that engines can be assembled with less chance of human error causing damage. This is more important on modern engines where the distance between pistons and valves is much closer than engines of old. In some instances(and at certain times) they very nearly touch each other due to the camshaft overlap/duration which is why I said fit a new belt then turn the engine by hand.

 

I have just googled and come up with this site which may help you.

http://www.volkswagenforum.co.uk/

 

I would just ask them how to fit a cambelt and time the engine.

 

There are other similar sites if the above one can't help.

[FORTUNATA]

This fuel-bleeding problem has a simple solution. I just bought a manual lift-pump I can fit on the fuel hose tomorrow. The guy in the shop also suggested checking the injection pump isn't switched off by the solenoid and also suggested running a positive to the stop solenoid on the pump.

As for fuel-lift pumps, they're not fitted normally on VW engines which is why I have hand pump instead. It will be a matter of pumping fuel and loosening the vent on my filter as well as an injector union or two. After that, a lot depends on the condition of the pump.