Engine Filled With Water

[FORTUNATA]

The rain has been causing me major difficulties. I've been painting my boat but to do this properly I had to remove the old makeshift shack someone had nailed up to half cover the engine and wiring. The plan was to buy a proper one after I had painted. Unfortunately the rain has been torrential over the weeks.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, my engine has water in. The fuel injectors were literally pumping out diesel and water. Seeing as people have tried to start the engine without first eliminating this water, the water is now probably inside the pump e.t.c. It won't start up and, so far as I'm aware, hasn't fired up for over a year.

How could you get this water out of the system - the engine as whole. The fuel tank has now been drained of water and some chemical stuff put in but I believe if water gets into the engine and stays there too long, it's adios to your motor, correct?

One more point: Is it very dificult to remove an engine from the boat? If my engine is totally knackered, maybe I could remove it and then resort to a 4 stroke outboard. However, the engine is very heavy and bolted on in some remote places.

[Denis R]

Bit of a glib answer, but it depends how long the water's been in there an in what concentration. If not long enough to get any internal corrosion going you can possibly get away with a complete flush through. But after a year or so, it's likely to need an injection system strip down. If the engine's cylinder bores are rusted too, it's probably terminal. If hte engine turns over as yours appears to, you should be OK, but I fear for the pump and injectors....

[FORTUNATA]

I think it actually ran over a year ago. The main problem has been this rain. When I took her over all there was for a shelter was a knocked up roof and flaps - one of which was missing so rain was getting in. I even heard at one point she nearly sank. Then I took over and painted the whole boat in Brightside, filled in with fibreglass gel and did quite a bit.

Here is what I'm thinking, though: If there is a major problem with the engine I wonder if I could strip the boat back down to the shell and remove the motor. Everybody says outboard motors aren't as good as inboards but, you know, this may not strictly be true. I figure that for about 1300 pounds I could buy an excellent outboard 4 stroke and the beauty of it is, you can take it off for the Winter period.

 

Bit of a glib answer, but it depends how long the water's been in there an in what concentration. If not long enough to get any internal corrosion going you can possibly get away with a complete flush through. But after a year or so, it's likely to need an injection system strip down. If the engine's cylinder bores are rusted too, it's probably terminal. If hte engine turns over as yours appears to, you should be OK, but I fear for the pump and injectors....

[Yamanx]

If the injectors are pumping water it must be in the tank?

 

If you drain out the water, try and run the motor with new oil, may be ok if its only been a short period, otherwise its a major rebuild.

[lymmranger]

I agree with Yamanx,

 

The only way to get water inside the engine is either from the fuel tank or through the air intake.

 

You can usually fully imerse a diesel engine without too much harm coming to it.

 

It is the inner workings of the fuel system where water can wreak havoc - The tolerances are so fine that any rusting caused by water will cost serious money to rectify

 

Have you checked the integrity of your fuel tank and filler cap?

 

I would further advise that you move quickly to eradicate any water from "inside" the fuel system to minimise any further damage

[FORTUNATA]

This has been a bit complicated, I guess. I know rain has been getting into the boat for some time, before it came to my hands. That is, there were openings around the engine where one of the flaps had disappeared. When I first took a look at it, I had to pump several buckets of water from the bilge.

I'm now beginning to suspect it could be the worst case scenario and the engine has simply been exposed to damp and rain for too long. However, I found a mechanic and I'll give him time to see if he can get it going. I believe the engine did fire up about 6 months ago but it apparently sounded rough. Obviously the guy who started it up shouldn't have done so without checking the fuel cleanliness first. So, that's one option.

In such a situation as this where you take hold of a very old boat that's been neglected for a long time, I seriously wonder whether my second best option might be to remove the entire inboard motor and fit a decent outboard instead. That would mean my getting at the engine bolts and using a pulley. It would also mean modifying the boat to suit an outboard.

 

 

 

I agree with Yamanx,

 

The only way to get water inside the engine is either from the fuel tank or through the air intake.

 

You can usually fully imerse a diesel engine without too much harm coming to it.

 

It is the inner workings of the fuel system where water can wreak havoc - The tolerances are so fine that any rusting caused by water will cost serious money to rectify

 

Have you checked the integrity of your fuel tank and filler cap?

 

I would further advise that you move quickly to eradicate any water from "inside" the fuel system to minimise any further damage

[Yoda]

How far or what have you done so far to the boat? Has the engine started? Have you pumped fresh diesel around the fuel system? Does the engine turn over on a fresh battery?

[FORTUNATA]

I made good progress with the restoration of the boat itself. I did some work with fibreglass, removed all the old knackered paint and I painted with Brightside so it's now looking something like.

However, I've had 2 major obstacles that have been discouraging:

(1) The rain which has held work back considerably.

(2) Difficulty in finding reliable mechanics.

As I've worked on the boat, I've learned a lot. I can see exactly where the problem lies with the engine (the damp, the design of the box e.t.c.) but lack the more refined mechanical skills needed to deal with it.

The engine spins when you connect it up to a freshly charged battery but it doesn't fire. If you unscrew an injector, you would see water coming out. Fresh diesel has been put into the tank together with some chemical to deal with hydration. My mechanic is going to try and flush it through but he's also fitting a fuel-lift-pump.

Let's be honest here, I expected problems with the engine but what I didn't expect was the lack of expertise in boatyards. I just assumed all I would have to do is take the boat to the yard, pay a fee and have them sort out the engine e.t.c. However, over here, the boatyards are very basic.

So, if my mechanic has no luck I'm considering the outboard option. My boat is looking fine but it remains unpowered. I also reckon the first mechanic I hired may have made the situation worse by starting the engine up before he dealt with the water issue. My guess is water may have been in the pump for many weeks.

 

 

How far or what have you done so far to the boat? Has the engine started? Have you pumped fresh diesel around the fuel system? Does the engine turn over on a fresh battery?

[Denis R]

I'm unconvinced about the outboard option. I'm not so sure it will work out as a cost effective alternative in the long run.

Your engine spins over, therefore you can probably assume the 'core' is OK. I think it's worth persisting with this engine for a while. Get fresh diesel pumped through right down to the injectors. I have a vague recollection from the past that one of the tricks was to loosen the spill rail at the injectors as a means of bleeding the air/watery fuel through. (Guys, help me on this one).

Also, what engine is it? If it's a commonplace lump, spares, if you need them in the end, may be cheaper than you think.

[Hairy-Neil]

However, over here, the boatyards are very basic.

 

Where is here?

[John Orentas]

Fortuna.

 

I often tell people who are considering buying a boat is that you need to be one of two things, you need to be wealthy enough so you can afford to pay someone to look after your boat, or you need to have the enthusiasm and willingness to lean how to look after it yourself.

 

I suspect you don't fall into either of those categories, so it is no use moaning about the incompetence of others. Reading your posts I think there is very little that prevents your engine being started up and tested, if it ran a year ago there is no reason it will not run today. Whether it is any good or not is another matter, you will only know that after you have got it running.

 

There is a bit of a cliché that says if a diesel engine has fuel and compression IT WILL START.

 

If the fuel is suspect drain it off and replace it with fresh stuff, make sure there is enough oil in it, get a good fully charged battery and connect up. Bleed the fuel system, quite easy if you go about it systematically, if there are heater plugs test those and put a supply to them. If you have sufficient compression it will start.

 

Try all that and keep asking.

[Hairy-Neil]

 

 

There is a bit of a cliché that says if a diesel engine has fuel and compression IT WILL START.

 

If the fuel is suspect drain it off and replace it with fresh stuff, make sure there is enough oil in it, get a good fully charged battery and connect up. Bleed the fuel system, quite easy if you go about it systematically, if there are heater plugs test those and put a supply to them. If you have sufficient compression it will start.

 

Try all that and keep asking.

 

There's a common problem in the motor trade at the moment with aged diesel Vauxhalls, say 10 years old I've heard, that are run out of diesel, never to run again.

[FORTUNATA]

I figure I'd be O.K. cleaning the fuel and draining water, as well as fitting a new filter system. I wouldn't know how to fit a fuel-lift pump, though, which is what is apparently going to be done.

With respect to wealth, you're probably correct I don't want to get into thousands of pounds in expenses but hundreds is realistic. As for enthusiasm, well, I suppose have made a theoretical start. I have the Haynes engine manuel which I went through carefully as well as a complete book of marine electrics and other books on diesel engines.

However, what I lack for sure is the confidence to actually plunge in.

Let me give you an example: According to what I read on ignition switches, mine is the 2 spring type - 1 turn for heater plugs and a sprung turn for start. However, the material I have gives a numerical code for the various pins on the rear of the switch that are far higher numbers than mine (being 1, 2, 3 e.t.c. ).

Also, I couldn't figure out the method of setting a multimeter to buzz in order to find the battery input socket - mine doesn't have the buzz option. It tells you to probe the terminals till you get no buzz and that would indicate the battery input feed?

So, with regard to knowledge, I think it's going to take me some more time and a college course would also be of help. This is all well and good, of course, but in the meantime I need to rely on people who know more than I do - hence the need for a mechanic. I have found one and so far he's made start on the fuel system (although I was surprised he left an injector out and exposed to the elements).

I'll keep you informed of how it goes and whether we can get it to fire up. If there are problems, I'll keep you informed what they are. Cheers.

 

Fortuna.

 

I often tell people who are considering buying a boat is that you need to be one of two things, you need to be wealthy enough so you can afford to pay someone to look after your boat, or you need to have the enthusiasm and willingness to lean how to look after it yourself.

 

I suspect you don't fall into either of those categories, so it is no use moaning about the incompetence of others. Reading your posts I think there is very little that prevents your engine being started up and tested, if it ran a year ago there is no reason it will not run today. Whether it is any good or not is another matter, you will only know that after you have got it running.

 

There is a bit of a cliché that says if a diesel engine has fuel and compression IT WILL START.

 

If the fuel is suspect drain it off and replace it with fresh stuff, make sure there is enough oil in it, get a good fully charged battery and connect up. Bleed the fuel system, quite easy if you go about it systematically, if there are heater plugs test those and put a supply to them. If you have sufficient compression it will start.

 

Try all that and keep asking.

 

 

It's an old Golf/Jetta about early eighties.

 

I'm unconvinced about the outboard option. I'm not so sure it will work out as a cost effective alternative in the long run.

Your engine spins over, therefore you can probably assume the 'core' is OK. I think it's worth persisting with this engine for a while. Get fresh diesel pumped through right down to the injectors. I have a vague recollection from the past that one of the tricks was to loosen the spill rail at the injectors as a means of bleeding the air/watery fuel through. (Guys, help me on this one).

Also, what engine is it? If it's a commonplace lump, spares, if you need them in the end, may be cheaper than you think.

[John Orentas]

Fortunata.

 

I wouldn't waste time and money trying to repair or replace the original electrical ancillaries which you may not need, the answer is to hot wire it.

 

The main feed to the starter will be obvious enough and there will be a small terminal to operate the solenoid, remember that battery neg should be connected to the engine block. You will need another live to the heaters, feed it through a temp. switch.

 

When you have got it spinning round and then running reliably you can then make any long term plans which will include reinstating the electrical system.

 

Leaving an injector out of the head for a while should not be a major problem but make sure any water is blown out of the cylinder before you refit it.

Edited September 7, 2006 by John Orentas

[Yoda]

If the engine has not got a fuel lift pump then it must have been running on gravity feed.

 

You must be able to rig up power to the starter motor and the heater plugs both of which can be disconnected when the engine has started.

 

When the engine has started keep it running so that it gets hot. This will also get rid of any water in the engine. Dont forget to check for oil pressure. If there is a generator fitted disconnect the drive before starting. Once its been running awhile you will know if you need do anything to it. This is just a starting point to the rest of your work.

 

Where is the boat located, you have not said? People can help if they are close enough to the boat. I'm sure they wont mind as long as you help yourself.

[FORTUNATA]

I've seen it hot-wired. It span but didn't fire. I winded up taking my battery back home to charge it up as it had been left 5 months without being charged up by the alternator.

I was down there today working. Anyone who wishes to pop over for a coffee and a chat is quite welcome. Let me stress I tend to work in a way that I focus all my attention on one thing and then I move to the next thing. For some time, all my efforts have been directed towards filling, sealing and painting with brightside. I have now almost transformed an awful looking heap into a fairly smart boat. So, now I am virtually ready to set to work on the engine. I've read about agglomerators, filters, injectors, starter motors and the like. My plan is to change a lot of things and, above all, find a way to keep my wiring dry and damp free.

I appreciate all your patience and support and will certainly take advantage of your collective knowledge. I'll make a note of all this advice and if the current engineer turns out to be not so serious, I'll have to try myself.

I'm based on the Caldon Canal at a place called Deephay. There are many boats moored in this area. I often chat to people who pass by as I'm working and I imagine many narrowboat owners have seen me working away.

 

 

Fortunata.

 

I wouldn't waste time and money trying to repair or replace the original electrical ancillaries which you may not need, the answer is to hot wire it.

 

The main feed to the starter will be obvious enough and there will be a small terminal to operate the solenoid, remember that battery neg should be connected to the engine block. You will need another live to the heaters, feed it through a temp. switch.

 

When you have got it spinning round and then running reliably you can then make any long term plans which will include reinstating the electrical system.

 

Leaving an injector out of the head for a while should not be a major problem but make sure any water is blown out of the cylinder before you refit it.

 

 

I sometimes get a bit discouraged but, all in all, I figure that, yes, I have made steps to help myself. In fact, I read very carefully the stuff Bones sent me some weeks ago on electrics as well as all the library books I can find.

I am keen to learn all this stuff and may even do a course. This is why I have a boat in the first place - to learn something new rather than simply cruise the waterways.

At any rate, this stuff about a fuel-lift pump was new to me. My engine never had one apparently. It has a Ford fuel filter which is best being renewed. So, I'm wondering if I can fit a CAV filter or a Bosch?

 

If the engine has not got a fuel lift pump then it must have been running on gravity feed.

 

You must be able to rig up power to the starter motor and the heater plugs both of which can be disconnected when the engine has started.

 

When the engine has started keep it running so that it gets hot. This will also get rid of any water in the engine. Dont forget to check for oil pressure. If there is a generator fitted disconnect the drive before starting. Once its been running awhile you will know if you need do anything to it. This is just a starting point to the rest of your work.

 

Where is the boat located, you have not said? People can help if they are close enough to the boat. I'm sure they wont mind as long as you help yourself.

[Hairy-Neil]

I was on the Caldon between 13 - 15 august on a boat called Strawberry Clover. Guess I probably passed you......

[FORTUNATA]

I'm by the large bridge. People are always walking past with their pooches. You also get a lot of joggers. I've been working on the boat for a long time but, to be honest, I have no boating background at all. Mind you, I haven't done too badly with the painting considering I used a brush. It's a reasonable job but now I need to make a decent cockpit shelter as well as sort the engine and electrics out.

I have to cycle quite a way to get there. The main Leek Road is quite dangerous as well for cyclists.

Yes, many narrowboats pass by.

 

I was on the Caldon between 13 - 15 august on a boat called Strawberry Clover. Guess I probably passed you......

[Denis R]

Just a thought, but is the engine stop solenoid working properly? I guess it's energise to run the engine if it's a VW car engine based unit. Unless they're replaced with an energise to stop system for marine use? If the stop valve is 'open' it'll crank forever and not fire, even if it appears 'wet' as there'll be no pressure in the injector rails.

[DavidWS]

Just on the subject of getting water in the engine, I suppose it is relative and I didn't see it mentioned above, but having got water in my diesel car engine through the air intake I discovered that whilst it ran after initially stopping, it completely destroyed itself 100 miles later. The high compression on diesels causes the con rods to bend as the water does not compress. In my case one broke and cut through the sides of the engine block, tore the sump off, and went through the starter and the radiator. The chap following who went over the debris wasn't amused either. Shortly after I saw another diesel engine that had suffered water through the air intake but had sensible failed to restart and some of the con rods had bent like swan necks. There is a moral here somewhere!

[FORTUNATA]

Some locals believe the boat I'm working on may well be a seventies model. One thing I do know is it's been totally neglected by previous owners. What I'm now planning on doing is stopping all this rain getting into parts of the boat where damp simply shouldn't be, such as around the engine. The thing is, my boat has no proper shelter around the cockpit so I've had to try and use sheets while I've been painting.

I know it's not good to be pessimistic but what do you guys think would be the very worst scenario costwise. I mean, let's say the engine needs to be partly stripped down. How much would that cost me do you think?

At any rate, seeing as the painting and gelcoat work has been done, I'm going to have a go at the engine myself. My first idea is to find a Ford store and purchase a similar Ford filter. I may even drain all the diesel and fill the tank up again. I will need to make sure no more rain gets anywhere near the engine or fuel tank as this is not acceptable.

 

 

Just on the subject of getting water in the engine, I suppose it is relative and I didn't see it mentioned above, but having got water in my diesel car engine through the air intake I discovered that whilst it ran after initially stopping, it completely destroyed itself 100 miles later. The high compression on diesels causes the con rods to bend as the water does not compress. In my case one broke and cut through the sides of the engine block, tore the sump off, and went through the starter and the radiator. The chap following who went over the debris wasn't amused either. Shortly after I saw another diesel engine that had suffered water through the air intake but had sensible failed to restart and some of the con rods had bent like swan necks. There is a moral here somewhere!

[DavidWS]

From what I read at the beginning I would be surprised if your engine was full of water - as the topic is entitled. My comment about the car is really only related to sudden ingestion through the air intake. If in fact some has gone in through the injectors it is only in a minute quantity but who knows? However, if your engine turns over and you sort out a clean fuel supply that injects and make sure the glow plugs work then there really isn’t anything else that will stop it from running assuming it ran up to the point it was last stopped. I wouldn’t get carried away with stripping it down without good reason.

[pegisoo]

I once bought a rare old 1960's BMW car which had been standing for a number of years. Prior to being left it had been partially stripped down. It was an old air cooled (petrol) 600cc engine. We felt certain that the engine would require a complete rebuild but decided to just see if it would turn over before stripping it. There were rags stuffed in the inlet and a box of sundry bits with the carbs in.

We removed the spark plugs and the engine seemed to turn over ok manually but the loom had been cut through and there seemed to be some water in the pots. We got a decent battery and jump leads and allowed the engine to turn over without plugs during which time it was firing rusty coloured sludge out of the spark plug holes and the exhaust ports! We really were amazed that it was not seized solid when we saw this.

figuring that the bores/ crank would be well past saving at this point we decided for the hell of it we would replace the spark plugs and fix up a feed from a petrol can to the carbs (we had nothing better to do at that point)

Yes you guessed it, within a few turns of the engine to get fuel through she coughed a bit and spluttered but fired up and within a few minutes was running sweetly! amazing!

We did consequently strip the engine down to rebuild it and found it to be in excellent condition with no visible scars from its years of neglect. Having spoken owners and and enthusiasts of the model none of them were in the least surprised that this was the case! I was repeatedly told that these engines were so well engineered that it took a great deal to finish them off. It would seem that BMW engineering during the 1960's really was amazing! Maybe they should have made boat engines.

[Supermalc]

A few weeks ago, I helped a friend start a Tractor on a farm. The farmer had died 14 years ago, and to the best of our knowledge this tractor, an orange Nuffield (forget the model number) had not been started for at least this long. The tax disc was 20 years old, although it may have been used around the farm for a few years afterwards.

 

We couldn't find the key, so had to jump the solenoid, and don't know if the electrics work, but ........ The diesel tank was a little over half full. We topped the water up and bled the injector pump. I pumped lots of diesel through to clear it as much as possible. We changed the battery of course. The old battery was still in place, so this is also a sign that it had not been started since it was put in the shed all those years ago. The farmer was ill for some time before he died.

 

After turning over for a minute or so, it started up, and ran almost perfectly. Yes it will want the fuel system draining and refilling, filters changed etc, before running for any length of time, but it just goes to PROOVE how durable diesel, and diesel engines are, even when left standing for many years. This was in a 'lean to' type shed against the barn......so just a roof with open sides.

 

Also, as it's a car based engine, surely a good second hand unit can be found. Much cheaper than buying new parts. As boat engines only run relatively slowly, and little use, compared to most cars, ones with 200,000 miles behind them will still last years on a boat.

[FORTUNATA]

My mechanic ( a travelling boater) wanted to tow my boat off so he could jumpstart it from his own boat. I know this sounds silly but as I don't know him that well, I didn't want my boat to be moved from the mooring without my being around and the boat being returned later on.

The thing is, if you turn the engine over with just a battery, the battery can become flat eventually. His plan was to fit a fuel lift pump, add some chemical to the diesel and try and jump start the engine that way, from his own boat.

At any rate, maybe I offended him over my reluctance to hand the boar over on trust. However, that was the plan which revolved around fitting a fuel-lift pump but I'm not sure why he felt the engine needs one of these - I guess there's a good reason.

At any rate, as I said, I've gone through the Haynes manual. I found it very precise. It has information about removal of timing belt, piston rings, the timing marks, using feeler guages and the whole composition of valves.

I have another excellent book I got dirt cheap on marine electrics. It was reduced in a reduction basket and I intend to work my way through it.

 

From what I read at the beginning I would be surprised if your engine was full of water - as the topic is entitled. My comment about the car is really only related to sudden ingestion through the air intake. If in fact some has gone in through the injectors it is only in a minute quantity but who knows? However, if your engine turns over and you sort out a clean fuel supply that injects and make sure the glow plugs work then there really isn’t anything else that will stop it from running assuming it ran up to the point it was last stopped. I wouldn’t get carried away with stripping it down without good reason.