Safety certificate

[Yamanx]

Because my boat is now about to be re-floated I will need to get it licenced. But, it doesnt have a safety cert and without one I cant get it licenced. Or rather I can on a monthly basis with a temporary licence at silly money, which is what I did in order to bring it home.

 

So no certificate no licence.

 

But I intend to get the certificate on an empty shell so I can licence it.

 

Of course I should then get it re-examined after its fitted out shouldnt I?

[gralyn]

Of course I should then get it re-examined after its fitted out shouldnt I?

 

You may find that the certificate on an empty shell will only cover for one year and the boat retested before the next license renewal.

[iteldoo4me]

Because my boat is now about to be re-floated I will need to get it licenced. But, it doesnt have a safety cert and without one I cant get it licenced. Or rather I can on a monthly basis with a temporary licence at silly money, which is what I did in order to bring it home.

 

So no certificate no licence.

 

But I intend to get the certificate on an empty shell so I can licence it.

 

Of course I should then get it re-examined after its fitted out shouldnt I?

 

A new boat shell doesnt require a certficate for the first year,you dont state what type of shell it is,ie new or old,perhaps you could be more specific,and as you state you are fitting it out,then are you doing it on land,or on BW water? as all you need normally is insurance if its on land,,If its going on private waters,ie in a Marina,you dont need a licence then either.look forward to your replies.regards Marc

Edited March 6, 2006 by iteldoo4me

[Yamanx]

A new boat requires an RCD in order to get a BW licence, so I'm lead to understand.

 

It is on BW water that I'll be fitting it out, and I'll need a BW licence.

[John Orentas]

Hi Dave.

 

As I understand the situation you can have the boat examined under BSS but obviously only then systems that have been installed can be inspected, a certificate can be issued on that basis, then have a full inspection on completion of the build. If I was in your position I would think a bit of negotiating with the examiner would be in order.

[GRPCruiserman]

Will they not just inspect it and issue the certificate on the basis of what is there? You then have a duty to comply with the rules of the BSC when fitting or modifying anything on the boat. Surely you wouldn't need a re-test within the four years, or am I wrong?

 

I am NOT an expert!! Seems unfair otherwise. Does it depend when the boat is classed as new?

 

Ignor me if I'm wrong !!!!!

[John Orentas]

Will they not just inspect it and issue the certificate on the basis of what is there? You then have a duty to comply with the rules of the BSC when fitting or modifying anything on the boat. Surely you wouldn't need a re-test within the four years, or am I wrong?

 

I am NOT an expert!! Seems unfair otherwise. Does it depend when the boat is classed as new?

 

Ignor me if I'm wrong !!!!!

 

 

In theory you should keep up the certification as you proceed with the build, but I don't think this area was ever thought out properly when the scheme was started. Each certificate will non the less last for the full four years so you should have no difficulty renewing the license.

 

When should the boat be classed as new ? That is subjective in itself, when the shell is finished, when the fit-out is finished, when it is launched. Remember for a DIY project there can be 4 or 5 years between beginning and end. All these questions came up when the BSS was initiated and I don't think the question was ever resolved.

Edited March 6, 2006 by John Orentas

[tomkeeling]

Hi all,

 

As I understand it from an examiner's point of view I would not be able to issue a cert if I had reason to believe the boat is not complete. In the case of a shell, or part-fit, that is obviously the case. With existing boats that are undergoing some refit work I issue a cert having examined what I find at the time but always advise the owner by letter that it is the owner's responsibility to comply with the scheme at all times.

 

With a new boat it is difficult because of the RCD/BSS contradiction. I would advise you to contact the Boat Safety Scheme office to clarify your situation, If I can help let me know.

 

Regards, Tom.

[Yamanx]

I've looked at BSS guide on the internet, I've read every peice of information given I can find. Someone has kindly given me their phone number to help me, but I havent called yet.

 

It seems there is a catch 22 here. Sure you can get part fitted, or empty shells examined if they are new, all the information appears to relate to new boats. Well new it most certainly aint.

 

An old boat, not yet fitted out cant seem to get a BSC, no BSC no licenec.

 

What now?

[ChrisPy]

I've looked at BSS guide on the internet, I've read every peice of information given I can find. Someone has kindly given me their phone number to help me, but I havent called yet.

 

It seems there is a catch 22 here. Sure you can get part fitted, or empty shells examined if they are new, all the information appears to relate to new boats. Well new it most certainly aint.

 

An old boat, not yet fitted out cant seem to get a BSC, no BSC no licenec.

 

What now?

I believe Tom Keeling has just given you the answer for an old boat undergoing refitting.

[GRPCruiserman]

Hi all,

 

As I understand it from an examiner's point of view I would not be able to issue a cert if I had reason to believe the boat is not complete. In the case of a shell, or part-fit, that is obviously the case. With existing boats that are undergoing some refit work I issue a cert having examined what I find at the time but always advise the owner by letter that it is the owner's responsibility to comply with the scheme at all times.

 

With a new boat it is difficult because of the RCD/BSS contradiction. I would advise you to contact the Boat Safety Scheme office to clarify your situation, If I can help let me know.

 

Regards, Tom.

 

What a ridiculous situation!! So a part re-fitted boat is un licencable!!

 

I would think then, that if this was the reason for non-issue of a BSC by an examiner, then a letter should be obtained from the examiner to that effect and submitted to BW. If BW refuse then to issue a licence then surely BW have prevented the issue of a licence to a boat by virtue of their own Boat Safety rules.

 

Does this mean, therefore, that a part re-fitted boat does not require a licence as one cannot be issued as a BSC cannot be issued until it is finished? I suppose it may come under the exeption for no accomodation, electric, or gas, but if there is a cabin, I would not have thought this would apply.

 

It would be interesting how a court would see this, but I dont suppose it would ever get that far.

 

I know one guy who took about ten years to finish his boat, I wonder how he managed?

 

I would have thought that if a boat complies with the rules on the day of examination, then a certificate should be issued. If you take your car for an MOT and it, say, is pre-1986 and has no rear seat belts then it will pass. If the owner fits frayed nasty rear seat belts the day after which would not have passed, then the owner still has a current MOT, but has illegal rear belts. If the owner the day after this removed the windscreen wipers, then the MOT is still valid, but they could be prosecuted under the cunstruction and use regulations regarding the seat belt and windscreen wipers. None of this is the responsibility of the testing station as they could not forsee the fitting and removal that was about to occur.

 

Surely if the examiner goes and checks a boat over and all the rules in the book are complied with, ie an empty sailaway with no gas, then it should be issued with a four year certificate. If the owner then fits a gas fridge next to his petrol outboard, then he has contravened the regulations as an ongoing boat safety issue, but still has a current certificate.

 

If your statement is true, then any examiner could fail any boat because the owner MIGHT fit a gas fridge inappropriately in the future.

 

I ask tomkeeling, at what point does the boat become part-built and finished? In my experience a boat is NEVER really finished, ie your are always fitting things and changing it?

 

I must always state that I have had a number of different examiners in this area over the years, and they have always been helpful and fair.

[Yamanx]

Having spoke to BW this morning there are two options. In actual fact there are three but one option is ruled out by cost.

 

Option one: Get a full survey (Not a BSS examiner) and get them to issue an annex 3 certificate. This will make you exempt for one year from having to have a BSC.

 

Option two: Get a BSS examiner to examine the boat as it is, they can get a letter from BW for me to sign indicating the boat cannot be sold without re-examination and there is an undertaking to have the boat re-examined when completed.

 

I'll be using option two, as it does not have time constraints.

Edited March 8, 2006 by Yamanx

[denboy]

i had a similar situation on my first boat a new shell bw gave me a lic for the first year then they would only issue a 6 monthly lic after that which i refused as it was only another £ 80 or so for a full year so when the local inspector would visit every month the first thing i did was offer the lic fee there and then he couldnt accept because i had no BSC on that grounds BW could not take any legal action because i had offered to pay and they would not accept because i was not willing to have an examiner comming every week to tick off what work i had done.took 2 years to finish then had the full test

[tony collins]

i was not willing to have an examiner comming every week to tick off what work i had done.took 2 years to finish then had the full test

 

 

A Boat Safety Examiner has just written an article for our society magazine and includes the following quote -

 

"......It is the boat owner's responsibility to ensure that the boat complies at all times. In theory I should be able to walk on to any boat and write a certificate....."

 

The difficulty as I see it, is that what is allowable and what is not allowable is a moving feast. For example my old engine had flexible leak off tubes which at different points were banned, then allowed as a concession, then banned again unless they were the original manufacturers fitment. This depend on where the engine came from My old engine was out of a Transit van! (I now have superb shiny new Isuzu which came with rigid tubes) So the poor amateur fitter out is supposed to constantly monitor the changes in the regs and amend his work as a result.

 

Damn difficult. Does anyone know how many fires were caused my failure of flexible leak off tubes I wonder?

 

Tony

[Alastair]

 

Option one: Get a full survey (Not a BSS examiner) and get them to issue an annex 3 certificate. This will make you exempt for one year from having to have a BSC.

 

 

What is an annex 3 certificate?

[ChrisPy]

What is an annex 3 certificate?

ANNEX III

 

DECLARATION BY THE BUILDER OR HIS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE ESTABLISHED IN THE COMMUNITY OR THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR PLACING ON THE MARKET

(Article 4 (2) and (3))

(a) The declaration by the builder or his authorized representative established in the Community referred to in Article 4 (2) (partly completed craft) shall contain the following:

- the name and address of the builder,

- the name and address of the representative of the builder established in the Community or, if appropriate, of the person responsible for the placing on the market,

- a description of the partly completed craft,

- a statement that the partly completed craft is intended to be completed by others and that it complies with the essential requirements that apply at this stage of construction.

( b ) The declaration by the builder, his authorized representative established in the Community or the person responsible for placing on the market referred to in Article 4 (3) (components) shall contain the following:

- the name and address of the builder,

- the name and address of the representative of the builder established in the Community or, if appropriate, of the person responsible for the placing on the market,

- a description of the component,

- a statement that the component complies with the relevant essential requirements.

Edited March 9, 2006 by chris polley

[Hairy-Neil]

 

Does anyone know how many fires were caused my failure of flexible leak off tubes I wonder?

 

When I first joined the Narrowboat Trust Nuneaton's leak off worked on a total loss system into the bilge. Fumes weren't too much of a problem at canal speeds but the first time I got out on the Thames there was more smoke coming out of the air cooling vent than the exhaust. I very soon modified the system to include a Coke can.

 

Oh for the days of pre BSS boating.......

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Having spoke to BW this morning there are two options. In actual fact there are three but one option is ruled out by cost.

 

Option one: Get a full survey (Not a BSS examiner) and get them to issue an annex 3 certificate. This will make you exempt for one year from having to have a BSC.

 

Option two: Get a BSS examiner to examine the boat as it is, they can get a letter from BW for me to sign indicating the boat cannot be sold without re-examination and there is an undertaking to have the boat re-examined when completed.

 

I'll be using option two, as it does not have time constraints.

 

Dave,

If I understand your circumstances correctly then these options are not correct and someone is muddled. Please call me and I'll advise once I have had a chat with you about the situation with your boat.

Rob @ BSS Office

[John Orentas]

Dave,

If I understand your circumstances correctly then these options are not correct and someone is muddled. Please call me and I'll advise once I have had a chat with you about the situation with your boat.

Rob @ BSS Office

 

 

Rob.

 

Private conversations are all very well but this is an open forum and Dave's position is far from being unique, there has been a question mark over this issue for as long as the BSS scheme has been in force.

 

Surely there is some documentation which will clarify the situation, could you at least post an official explanation from your office as to what the true position is.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Rob.

 

Private conversations are all very well but this is an open forum and Dave's position is far from being unique...

...could you at least post an official explanation from your office as to what the true position is.

 

John,

Absolutely, but before all that, I would like by converstaion to reassure myself of my own understanding by conversation if Dave would like to. Once done, I'll report back here soonest.

 

Cheers

Rob@ BSS office