Do I Buy Private Or from A Brokerage

[alaskanuk]

Hi All.

 

Have been lurking for a few days. My partner and I have more or less decided that liveaboard is for us. I hope to get early retirement at the end of this year/begging early next at the age of 50.

We have been e-mailing various liveaboards with general questions, and have been viviting the Grand Union, meeting liveaboards, asking about their experiences etc. And we still have tons of stuff to ask, most of which we will find many of the answers on this excellent forum.

 

We have more or less decided on the type & size of boat for us, our three dogs and two cats (and yes, have read the Dogs in Pubs thread)

 

The one question we need to ask on here, (as we'll get much bigger feedback) is, do we buy private, or go through a brokerage.

 

We will be looking for a 60 -62 ft, cruiser stern around the £60,000 mark.

 

How much mark up do the brokerage put on a second hand boat they buy ?

 

I work in the car industry, and know that dealers put a hell of a mark up on second hand vehicles they sell. Are Boat Brokerages the same ?

 

What more/less would I get in say giving £60,000 to a brokerage, or £60,000 to a private seller ?

 

Also, where do the private sellers advertise, as I have purchased Waterways World, and Canal Boat but most of the adverts are from brokerages.

I guess I could get a slightly newer boat privately than paying the same ammount to a brokerage, and I will have to pay for an inspection, whoever I buy the boat from.

 

Any suggestions/comments would be really appreciated.

 

Dave

[anhar]

Hi All.

 

Have been lurking for a few days. My partner and I have more or less decided that liveaboard is for us. I hope to get early retirement at the end of this year/begging early next at the age of 50.

We have been e-mailing various liveaboards with general questions, and have been viviting the Grand Union, meeting liveaboards, asking about their experiences etc. And we still have tons of stuff to ask, most of which we will find many of the answers on this excellent forum.

 

We have more or less decided on the type & size of boat for us, our three dogs and two cats (and yes, have read the Dogs in Pubs thread)

 

The one question we need to ask on here, (as we'll get much bigger feedback) is, do we buy private, or go through a brokerage.

 

We will be looking for a 60 -62 ft, cruiser stern around the £60,000 mark.

 

How much mark up do the brokerage put on a second hand boat they buy ?

 

I work in the car industry, and know that dealers put a hell of a mark up on second hand vehicles they sell. Are Boat Brokerages the same ?

 

What more/less would I get in say giving £60,000 to a brokerage, or £60,000 to a private seller ?

 

Also, where do the private sellers advertise, as I have purchased Waterways World, and Canal Boat but most of the adverts are from brokerages.

I guess I could get a slightly newer boat privately than paying the same ammount to a brokerage, and I will have to pay for an inspection, whoever I buy the boat from.

 

Any suggestions/comments would be really appreciated.

 

Dave

Hello Dave

 

Brokerages, as the name implies, don't buy boats they sell for private vendors on commission. They're not dealers in the sense of the cars you mention. Consequently ownership remains with the vendor who is responsible for paying the broker's commission.

 

In my experience the great majority of s/h boats for sale are through brokers. Few try and sell privately through ads because it is generally unsuccessful. Boats can hang around for an extremely long time before they are sold, months, even years sometimes, so it is not exactly a lively market. That is why private ads aren't much good whereas brokers are more attractive to sellers because they are willing to keep the vessels on their books almost indefinitely and you don't pay until sold. An ad is too ephemeral.

 

For £60,000 though you might try and look at a cheaper new boat. Some builders and suppliers like New Boat Co. for example are now offering certain budget new builds for that kind of money. Obviously you won't get a top of the line boat but at least you'll get new.

 

regards

Steve

[gringogordo]

I have no experience of this but maybe some brokers get a survey done before taking it on (or make the seller do this more likely) if so and it can be trusted (I may well be in a private fantasy land...) this would offset some of the commission... Although thinking about it I guess it would be added on as an increased cost anyway... Still it may save some time and effort if they do.

[Moley]

The one question we need to ask on here is do we buy private, or go through a brokerage?

 

Also, where do the private sellers advertise?

 

Hi, and welcome to the forums.

 

I can't really comment on brokers as I bought a restoration project that I found on ebay, but would guess that I would have paid 50% extra at the bottom end of the market. Frankly, the brokers hadn't got anything I could afford that I looked at twice, but your budget's a bit higher than ours

 

There are quite a few private ads on

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk

 

Good luck,

Ade.

 

PS: There's a girl around here somewhere selling a 70 footer for 18k if you fancy a restoration job

[alaskanuk]

Thanks for that Steve.

 

So a brokerage acts more or less in the same way as an estate agent. We actually visited the New Boat Co at Reading. But the problem we found was that as we were "adding" bits to the boat we required, so the price jumped up way beyond the 60K mark.

Also, would not a tried and tested fairly top of the range boat a few years old prove a better buy ?

 

Thanks for the help guys, so it looks like a visit to brokerages for us then.

 

Dave

[anhar]

Thanks for that Steve.

 

So a brokerage acts more or less in the same way as an estate agent. We actually visited the New Boat Co at Reading. But the problem we found was that as we were "adding" bits to the boat we required, so the price jumped up way beyond the 60K mark.

Also, would not a tried and tested fairly top of the range boat a few years old prove a better buy ?

 

Thanks for the help guys, so it looks like a visit to brokerages for us then.

 

Dave

Good luck Dave. You're right about the "extras" on some new boats, which these days are considered by most of us to be essential, such as high power inverters to run mains equipment. It's done of course so as to keep the initial advertised price much lower.

 

I've been looking for a boat for some time and know New Boat Co. quite well, have visited Reading a few times and once to their main office at Hanbury. As you've probably discovered they don't build at all but are merely middlemen, not that there's anything wrong with that. I first came across them last year when I went to see their Aqualine, unique because its built in Poland and a superb boat in my view. Almost like a bespoke model though it is a production boat. Out of your, and my, price range though.

 

It's a matter of opinion whether a s/h originally dearer boat is a superior buy to a cheaper new one. It depends on the individual boat I guess and what exactly you want. Personally I love the idea of a new boat, the feeling that I am the only user and there hasn't been someone else crapping in my bog, running my engine, bashing my hull into whatever, leaving their grease in my oven and so on. But I'm probably a bit weird like that.

 

More seriously, there are some builders, even at the budget end, who will allow you to input a certain amount of your own design. Not exactly bespoke, but certain alterations might be made to your spec. For example I dislike the common layout of the main bedroom at the back. Makes no sense to me at all. I'd rather the kitchen was there. One builder I went to see, within your sort of price range, was quite willing to arrange any layout I wanted more or less. With s/h, you have no control over the layout.

 

regards

Steve

Edited February 9, 2006 by anhar

[Nb Unity]

You could also try www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk, either to see whats on offer or advertise yourself looking for a boat ,legnth, trad, cruiser,semi trad, berths etc?

[alan_fincher]

I'm no expert, but here are some observations....

 

With brokerages, in theory, at least, the search becomes rather easier.

 

If the broker is any good, they will normally put fairly full details on the internet, (or paper, I guess), often including at least some kind of layout plan. You are likely to be able to rule out boats more easily without the time and expense of visiting, I guess. (But some broker's details are so hopeless as to add no value....)

 

Big brokerages often have quite a lot of boats on site, and will keep handing you keys to look over as many as you want, at your leisure. It's a good starting point to see a lot of boats quickly, to start forming ideas. But a smaller one may have no more than one boat at the sort of size, style, or price point you are looking at, so may not give you much more convenience than a private sale.

 

Don't expect them too know too much about the boats, though, and certainly don't expect them to have insisted on anything being available that gives any independent view of condition, (as someone has suggested they might...). The only thing I'd trust at all about condition, is the survey YOU have done - expensive, so really only appropriate once you are as sure as you can be that this is the right boat.

 

A broker should also have taken responsibility for establishing title on the boat being sold - i.e. that it is the "sellers" property to actually sell, and doesn't have outstanding loan on it. It's apparently not unusual for shared boats to be offered for sale by one owner without the other(s) always knowing If you don't use a broker, you need to have ways of answering these questions yourself, unfortunately.

 

It may sound like I'm advertising for brokers - I'm not! They undoubtedly inflate the cost of a boat considerably, as the seller will probably try and get what they think the boat is worth. and so try and ask extra to cover the brokers charge.

 

Another trick is that brokers will often say that they can squeeze you on to a mooring at their own marina, but only for boats sold through them. I'm convinced that those around the various junctions of Grand Union and Oxford canals add quite a mark up, as there is more demand on those marinas than places available.

 

Finally, don't let them tell you that prices are set realistically, and you don't expect to haggle much. In my experience this is simply not true. £10K of the advertised price of a £50K boat after it has gone unsold for a few months is very common. And that's asking price - you could expect to offer significantly less. I know of top of the range boats reduced by £20K, and still not sold.

 

Finally I agree there are relatively few truly private sales. Perhaps people are just uncomfortable with handing over such large sums of money with no third party involvement. The two sites already listed are the main ones I've seen for such private sales as there are, but some of the optimistic prices are probably worse value than some brokerage boats. You need to have seen quite a lot, to start to assess what a certain standard and age of boat should cost.

 

Good luck, anyway.

[wrigglefingers]

Hello Dave, and welcome to the forum!

 

I'm going through the same process at moment and with the same budget. I've been looking (and lurking) for about a year. I've done the big brokers in the Midlands and I would concur with the comments made so far. My view is that there's no absolutely perfect boat out there. I found it helpful to make a list of things that I needed and then narrow the search down from there. Out of my list of eight desirable points I've found a boat which offered the two vital must have elements - a mooring and two cabins (as I have a daughter). I've been able to find a boat locally which offers those points and I'm happy that the rest I can resolve or add later.

 

The compromises have been significant - the electrics will need revision and I'll need to partially re-fit (including re-bitumastic(k)ing the water tanks - groan) as I'm buying a boat about eight years older than I might have liked. I'm buying through the marina who simply introduced me to the owner and therefore there isn't much security for my money but I've done all the checks I can think of - such as seeing the documents and insisting that the price is conditional on the survey. I must reiterate that I think a survey commisioned and paid for by yourself should be mandatory. You have no legal comeback over a survey conducted by another person and personally I wouldn't trust a survey for somebody else in any case; probably just my cynical nature though. In return, I'll be paying about £22k less than I might have done had I gone through the brokers simply because I felt they were directly steering (no pun intended) to boats at the upper end of my price bracket regardless of need or inclination.

 

I think, after talking to friends and people I've met on the cut, that if you make yourself known, the towpath telegraph often comes up trumps. Most people are friendly and like to welcome others - I've been given tours of boats, tea and brilliant advice in my search and learnt so much. I've also discovered that you need patience, a willingness to take your time and nerves of steel. A friend who knows about boats is invaluable when you start feel you're getting close; mainly to club you round the head and shout "what the bleeding hell are you thinking!". They also do the things you're probably too polite to do; like haul up the floor to look at the cabin bilge and peer in the lav.

 

Good luck in your search and remember to enjoy it! I'm laughing now; probably be crying by next Tuesday when the Delph has her survey. If it's good, I'll meet you on the cut........

 

Regards, Jill