nicknorman

March 3

These things are quite good, but the major advantage is the portability which doesn't really fit in with a permanent installation in a boat. However I do take the point about taking to work to charge. You mention having 2 of them, but I don't think they can be used at the same time, you would have to plug in one or the other but not both. They should be routed via a consumer unit with RCD breaker, and the major disadvantage, if I have read the spec correctly, is that it is really designed only to be charged from the mains. It won't charge rapidly from 12v ie the engine alternator. If you don't plan to move the boat, maybe this doesn't matter, but most boats are equipped with big alternators whose primary job is to charge the battery when the engine is running.

In summary I'd say that these devices are not really appropriate for a "proper" narrowboat installation, although they are certainly handy (at a price!)

March 3

I'm no great expert on solar but it has been quite cold and I think that makes the panels work a lot better?

March 3

I think it’s just due to the varying amount of water going down the plughole. When no air is sucked in, it sounds different from when some air is sucked in alongside the water.

February 26

6 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Found those last night, so I'll give topping it up a go before resorting to replacement. Thanks for the comprehensive info Nick, very helpful.

Step 1, once connected, is to note the compressor inlet pressure after the fridge has been running for a while. If it is negative, the pressure is definitely too low (too little refrigerant) but anyway, keeping a record of what it was will help to avoid overdoing it (DAMHIK!)

Oh one other thing, try not to push air into the fridge. Leave the fridge end of the connector hose loose and discharge a bit of refrigerant from the top-up cylinder to purge the air in the hose. Air is wet and will cause corrosion inside the fridge.

February 26

9 hours ago, T_i_m said:

Ah yes, sorry, I forgot to say, no, I didn't find one.

It seems to come out of the diesel tank in copper, does maybe 4 loops of about 50mm diameter, runs about 40cm to the pump, then another 20cm before another 4 loops and up 30cm into the heater via a short length of rubber hose and that's it. ;-(

I believe the filter should go before the pump and that might not be easy (well, nothing on these NB's seems to be 'easy' ...). ;-(

This is the exhaust running.

And this is the heater itself running.

We have a Mikuni, slightly different but same principle. The exhaust video looks like ours before it has lit. So I don’t think it is burning properly or at all. On the other video the fuel pump click rate sounds slow - the slow rate you get before light-up is detected. Assuming the click rates are similar on both models.

Have you had a look at the glow plug? - an easy thing to check.

Edit: Actually it doesn’t look an easy thing to check on a Webasto!

February 25

9 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

Those works are just in front of us. The sheet is visible on the offside bank, so that may have it place now. I shall be sure to pass in neutral if there's any water left in the pound to float in in the morning. Thanks for the heads-up.

MP.

I’d be interested to know if the sheet is still in the water, whether there are now any warning signs for boaters.

February 25

3 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Pretty sure I've looked for a gassing point in the past and found it to be a sealed off spur, but I'll drag the fridge out again and have another shufti. I'd prefer this solution to a new fridge cos otherwise it's in perfect condition. Your symptoms match too. Did you empty and refill or just top up - sounds like the latter, but I thought I'd just check.

You and I are on the same page!

It appears the latest version of their model 85 (83 litres) now has an LG compressor. Might be why.

Topped up. There was a convenient connection point on the back. But even if not, you can get top-up kits that include a piercing thing that attaches to the copper pipe and penetrates it.

The "correct" way is to empty to vacuum, then refill with the correct weight of refrigerant. But that is far too diffficult! So with the kit (including pressure gauge) connected to the low pressure side (compressor input) and with the fridge running for a while, I adjusted the pressure to be slightly above ambient. Can't remember exactly what but the gauge is calibrated in deg C as well as pressure, and I think i had it on about -15C. Anyway, the important thing to remember is that both too little, and too much, gas is bad. It is fairly critical and consequently the amout of gas to be added is "not much". Do a little at a time and see what happens.

February 25

1 hour ago, MoominPapa said:

Maybe I've been bullshitted.

Anyway, the activity running water down Minworth did yield a marginal increase in levels and I managed to redistribute enough mud to be able to slither over the remainder and get to Curdworth top lock without further problems. The long pound between Curdworth Lock 1 and Curdworth Lock 2 was 18 inches down. We had to fill it up to about 8 inches down to be able to grind under the A446 bridge, which definitely reversed the level increase in the Minworth-Curdworth pound. Since we've seen only one other moving boat in the last week, and he will be away up Minworth long since, I didn't feel too bad.

After the top pound, the rest of Curdworth is fine (so far). Moored for the night between 6&7.

MP.

Surprising. We went from Fazelely to Star City last Tuesday, and back down again on Wednesday. All levels were normal. Just some Rothen guys doing something silly above lock 7 - ie installing a huge sheet of plastic right across the canal on the bottom, to seal a leak into a culvert. Well that was the plan, but the plastic sheet was floating to the surface probably buoyed up by methane from the rotting vegetation on the bottom. When we went up they advised us to pass in neutral to avoid getting the huge sheet round the prop. But on the way down there was nobody there and no notices, and as we passed (in neutral) we could see the huge plastic sheet lurking just below the surface. I did suggest to CRT that it wasn't a great idea and perhaps there should at the very least be some warning notices, but I don't think they "got it".

February 25

12 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Thanks guys. It appears that the latest version has an LG compressor unit, which sounds reasonable enough. They are indeed the better part of 400 quid hence a bit of a saving but, whilst it is relatively long lived, I'm actually not a huge fan of my current Shoreline. It has a Danfoss (BD35?) compressor, but has always seemed a bit power hungry and is now running virtually 24/7. I've looked for ages at having it fettled by a fridge tech, but they appear to be unicorns. The current Shoreline appears to be more or less the same model which seems to be an older standard of insulation if so surely can't match the latest models for efficiency.

I think you've hit the nail on the head re quality control. I guess that's pretty much what I'm seeking opinion on here in terms of where Alpicool sit.

Have you tried re-gassing your shoreline? Ours lost gas after about 10 years and was running most of the time. I added some gas via an eBay kit and it is now much better and runs about 1/3rd of the time, although it does gurgle rather more due to the gas not being the proper stuff (r134a]which is discontinued, but a “compatible” substitute (which I think is probably propane).

February 22

1 hour ago, Sonia said:

Can anyone add the nice and worse places to moor on route and in central Birmingham.

Is the max nights in Sheepcote 4 nights?

In central Brum best is on the mainline between old turn Jn and St Vincent’s street, or up the start of the Oozels st loop behind the Bank (restaurant). Nowhere in the centre is particularly bad but the Gas St basin to the Cube is our least favourite.

En route - well it depends on which route!

February 21

48 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Right, that makes sense, thanks. I was looking for a dial on the unit which it doesn't have so I assumed it must be in the app.

Because it has an internal fuse I don't need to add any fuses?

Remember that the fuse is there to protect the wiring, not the box! Fuses are needed to protect against a battery short circuit. So in principle the positive wires to each battery should be protected by a fuse close to the battery (but not actually in the battery box). But IMO a risk-based approach would mean it depends on the distance from the batteries to the box. If it is short with no feasible prospect of a wire chafing/short circuiting/getting ripped out by standing on it etc, then probably a fuse can be avoided. But I think the “correct” answer is to fuse it at both batteries.

Edit: The manual specifies a fuse at each battery so that is what you should do.

February 21

50 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'm a bit confused about the instructions for this Tr Smart 12 / 12 - 18. Although the one I've got is a charger the instructions that came with it are for a converter.

Firstly, I know it says optional but just to be clear, is there any need to fit a switch at all? Can't you just switch it on/off via Bluetooth if required?

Secondly, in terms of adjusting the output voltage; if it does behave like a mains charger then I assume the adjusted output voltage is the maximum or absorption voltage? Does it then automatically know what the float voltage is based on the max voltage set? Something doesn't seem right.

I assume the potentiometer is on the app which you can set when the unit is powered up, but then it tells you not to connect a battery until you have set the output voltage? Does it mean connect the supply battery but don't connect the load battery? Scratching my head. The instructions could be clearer.

Picture of the unit

It’s the wrong instructions, so not too surprising that it’s confusing! I doubt the charger version has a potentiometer (which is a hardware thing on the box). I would connect the supply battery then have a look at the settings on the App, make appropriate settings before connecting the battery to be charged.

The instructions for this device can be found here https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Orion-Tr_Smart_DC-DC_Charger_-_Isolated/34439-Orion-Tr_Smart_DC-DC_Charger-pdf-en.pdf

February 21

Probably the surge comes when the genny is first started, so it would be best to start it THEN plug it into the boat.

February 21

I think the problem is that the water is turned to vapour and then spewed out into the room. So although the temperature is reduced, the humidity is increased and so it might not feel any more pleasant.

February 21

14 minutes ago, Rod Stewart said:

Thanks. That is how I understand it to. I was however questioning the actual spec that victron are quoting. Blackrose and your goodself were suggesting it is the output in Watts. I was querying if it was in Watts or VA. I realise at times that these things are the same under given circumstances. However surely the spec is in VA, not Watts.

Correct it is VA. And by convention this is with 0.8pf so the wattage is 80% of that figure.

February 21

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

As I understand it. If you plotted graphs of current and voltage then with a purely resistive load, they would be completely in phase with each other so they peek at the same time so the AxV=W works as you would expect. When you do the same for an inductive load you find that the two graphs go out of phase so peak amps and peak volts no longer occurs at the same time, so the power delivered is less because the amps and volts at any point are lower in comparison with each other than with resistive load.

It can get a bit more complicated because the 80% is in no way fixed, it varies depending on upon the inductance of the load, to such an extent that large industrial equipment has to have be equipped to minimise this out of phase difference.

It seems to be a convention. Maximum output VA is quoted at 0.8 power factor, maximum wattage is 80% of that figure. The VA limit is purely a current limit (inductor saturation etc), the wattage is a power dissipation limit.

February 21

I had a quick look at the Victron website, I think the smallest multiplus 2 is the 3000va one. The smaller ones are the Multiplus (not 2) which is an older design. One parameter I’d compare between different models is the no load power consumption which can vary quite a bit between models.

February 21

Just now, Manxcat54 said:

I have 4 Lead acid batteries and a starter batt

Assuming these are around 100Ah each, that’s enough for a 3000VA inverter if you so wish.

February 21

The second figure is not wattage, it is the maximum VA. Maximum wattage is normally 80% of that. So the 2000 is 1600w which couldn’t eg run a kettle and would be marginal for a normal domestic microwave.

i would go for 2500 or 3000. Using a lot of power for a short period doesn’t drain the batteries, it is using a lot (or even a moderate amount) for long periods that does.

But you haven’t said what type/ capacity of batteries you will have. If going for a big inverter you need a big battery bank to cope with the current.

February 20

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm fairly sure that you can use the T&M to get from Shardlow thru' Nottingham to Meadow lane and back onto the Trent.

If you check on the C&RT website you'll see there are various 'canal/river links' so you can get from river to river via a canal.

Edit to add - yes you can, I'm surprised no one has told you previously.

From the website :

There is a list of all the waters you can use and includes :

Trent (Shardlow-Gainsborough, including the Nottingham & Beeston Canal)

But that is Shardlow on the river Trent, not Shardlow on the T&M. Same Shardlow, different bit of it.

February 20

There seems to be quite a big variation in empty weight.

February 20

8 hours ago, nottheone said:

I can understand that and I do believe the Tr Smart 12 / 12 - 18 will achieve what you are after. I would be very intrigued to hear a response from Ian / Nick / Tony as I am not an electronics engineer.

That device is a charger rather than a converter, and due to the plethora of different models it would be important to check that “charger” is in the description. Yes it would work to keep the start battery fully charged. What might be a problem is that once the starter battery is fully charged, the charger will go to float and this might result in the starter battery voltage being below that needed by the VSR feeding the BT battery, so it wouldn’t be kept topped up. Depends on the exact settings for the charger float voltage and the BT VSR turn-off voltage.

It’s quite expensive though. A small solar setup would probably work better because it would briefly go to bulk each day and that would definitely activate the BT VSR.

Or just leave it! A fully charged LA battery in good condition can be left for 6 months without a problem.

February 18

6 hours ago, Narc said:

It's a long wait to get in on the Brinklow ones

Thanks everyone I will just go to the farm and ask when I finalise me flat sale 👍

I’ve asked on the other forum of someone who moors at Colehurst. Apparently the farmer is very old now and not been seen around recently. The previous phone number no longer seems to work. His daughter is perhaps taking the reins so he will try to find out her phone number.

February 18

2 hours ago, IanD said:

But low-rpm current limiting is needed to stop the engine revs being pulled down too much, and this is not 100% there yet -- see post from @cheesegas...

Well it can be there. If you knew anything about control theory you would know it is just a matter of having the right parameters / coefficients in the feedback loop, and some non-linearity - ie quick to reduce field current (when you chop the throttle to idle) and slow to increase the field current when the rpm increases, which is easy to do in software. Mine did hunt very slightly when I first commissioned it, but I tweaked the parameters and now it doesn’t.

February 18

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Which model should I have bought?

Well first we need to know exactly what it is for. Is it just to keep starter and BT battery topped up during long periods of non-use? Or is it also to charge the BT battery after it has been used?

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