nicknorman
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Posts posted by nicknorman
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Just now, Russ T said:
These things are quite good (and inexpensive - £8.5 at screwfix) for detecting lack of mains voltage. Not as versatile as a voltmeter, but quite useful on occasions.
However they only detect mains voltage relative to earth. So they cannot be used to check for continuity in the neutral wires. And won't work unless the inverter is NE bonded and the boat hull is bonded to earth (which it should be of course).
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3 minutes ago, wouldiwere123 said:
You're right, it's just off at the minute as I'm tinkering with the surrounding cabling. The supply direct from the inverter (I.e. with a laptop or other 240 item plugged directly into the inverter) seem to be working fine, and not getting any error lights from the inverter when it is on, so fairly sure the issue isn't there
I think you will just have to check for mains voltage along the system, starting with the plug. Presumably you have checked that the plug fuse is OK? If it were me I’d plug it into the inverter with its lid off (as shown) and use a multimeter set to ac voltage to check for 230v between live and neutral. If not present, it’s an issue with the inverter. If present, move to the distribution panel and check for voltage on the inverter input wires (right of the picture) etc. Of course, mains voltage can be fatal,so you need to be very careful when doing this.
Id also mention that, whilst it’s probably not the issue, it is bad practice to have screw down connectors onto stranded wire. You can see that some of the wires going into the chocolate block connector have ferrules, but others are just bare wires. The screws tend to cut the strands and make a poor connection and potentially cut through the strands. I’d get a packet of appropriately sized terminal ferrules.
6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:Would the 12/500 model number on the inverter signify it was a 500w inverter ?
In which case if it was trying to run a water heater (immersion) I'd not be surprised if something went 'pooof'.
It wasn’t.
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On the essential maintenance thing, I disagree that blacking is essential maintenance and anyway, have we even confirmed that “essential maintenance” on a house is something that benefits will pay for? As MtB pointed out, my comparison with a rented house and window frame painting was not valid because the landlord is responsible. But one can own a house (just as one can own a boat) and end up on benefits, let’s say after the mortgage has been paid off. Is there any confirmation that the benefits system will pay for essential maintenance for a private residence, and if so what is the definition of “essential maintenance” in the context of the benefit system? I have never heard of such things being paid for by the benefits system, but perhaps I have just missed it?
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2 minutes ago, carlt said:
But, like double glazing or boiler grants, if you can demonstrate the insulating properties of a thick larding on of comastic..
You can’t, because it is insignificant. But you knew that!
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I would relate it to the mainstream, ie housing. You can get assistance to pay rent via the benefits system. This translates into the benefits system paying mooring and CRT fees since this is a direct equivalent of rent. Renting the mooring and renting the water on which to float the boat.
But I would think it highly unlikely that the benefits system would pay for blacking. The equivalent would be the benefits system paying to have your house’s wooden window frames painted. Maintenance, yes. Essential maintenance, no. The boat will carry on floating for decades without the blacking being redone, just as the windows will survive decades of not being well painted.
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Yes it's chipboard. Chipboard is fine as long as it doesn't get wet. However on a boat, the chances are that it will get wet at some point, or at least damp. So it will swell up and fall to bits. It may be cheap and it may last a while, but eventually you will have to redo the work.
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17 minutes ago, Jonny P said:
If a pub is a requirement then surely the stop has to be Coven and The Anchor?
The only other option remotely close to equidistant between Tixall and Gnosall is to stop above Gailey lock and walk to the pub on the A449 (large Marston’s pub aimed at passing trade). Personally I’d be wanting to get above the S&W locks on this day and have a largely cruising day next.
As suggested above stop in the shallow cutting north of the Anchor (which is prominent because it’s white and on the outside of a bend) because it can get noisy but it will definitely have very bright external lights.
I think sometimes we might do well to consider if posters even drink alcohol - let alone their drink preferences - before offering advice based largely on the quality of cask ale.
We could even ask them.
I like real ale, but on a hot summer’s day, sometimes a cold Peroni is better! -
1 hour ago, IanD said:
Crucial answer -- how much money are you willing to spend, how much electrical kit are you willing to install (e.g. shunts, controller display), and how much manual intervention/control are you happy with?
Especially bearing in mind that it's likely to need some kind of communications network and/or an app to control it, which you don't seem in favour of... 😉
(the real problem is that drop-in LFPs are not generally designed to interface with and play nicely with (or control) other kit, they're literally intended as a "standalone" drop-in battery...)
There are LFPs designed to do this, but they're the ones designed for installation in systems like off-grid houses, they usually need/have an external or networkable BMS, and often rely on controlling an external combo inverter/charger as well as MPPT controllers -- Victron and BYD are two examples, but there are others (like Nick's DIY setup). What they also are is usually a lot more expensive than "drop-in" LFP batteries... 😞
Or you could simply use a BMV712 as I suggested earlier, total cost around £95. Or free if he already has one.
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14 minutes ago, IanD said:
That's where we stopped, I went into the pub to check out the beer and food and we decided to eat/drink on board... 😞
The moorings (with rings) are fine if you don't mind shady trees, but there was a fair bit of noise from the pub so don't stop too close to it.
It is a Vintage Inn, so the food is quite OK but a bit pricy. Probably more than you were prepared to pay, but the OP is on holiday so no expense spared!
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47 minutes ago, IanD said:
You started with the digs and "I know better than you", I suggest you stop whining when they get thrown back at you... 😉
The problem is that I do know better than you.
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6 minutes ago, IanD said:
Since all he's got is a drop-in LFP battery and some solar panels, I'd have said your answer wasn't very well tailored -- as any good answerer would do,
Well I guess you should know, after all you did design the human brain.
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It depends on your priorities for pretty vs good pub! But perhaps Coven would be a good idea since there is a canalside pub there, and good mooring just before it (although not great views due to the trees). Anchor Inn, Cross Green, just on the outskirts of Coven.
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10 minutes ago, IanD said:
Indeed -- and the BMV-712 will do that just fine, and you can set a "fully charged voltage" which it will go up to (e.g. 13.2V) and then stop charging and reset SoC to 100% -- which of course is then not actually 100% SoC for the battery (reached at maybe 14.3V) but looks fine to the uneducated user.
However this then needs manual intervention by the boater to go beyond this voltage, as you said (and I agreed with):
"Using SoC is the correct way to do it, albeit one does have to fully charge every couple of weeks / a month or so to reset the BMV to 100%. This can be accomplished by changing a setting in the solar, disabling the relay in the BMV or adding a switch into the cable to manually force full charging."
The bit in bold is the problem, because the kind of boater looking for "an easy way to..." may not understand this, or know how to do it, or remember to do it, or tell whoever buys their boat to do it. And if they don't then the SoC reading will drift (mine does at about 1% per week IIRC), at which point using SoC for charge control won't work any more.
So like many cases where people look for an easy way to do anything, there's then the risk that they don't know what the issues arising from this are, and end up with an over- or under-charged battery.
Using SoC works so long as the boater has the knowledge to do what you said in bold. However given the number of boaters who manage to kill their LA batteries in a very short time because they don't understand the much simpler basics of LA battery charging, I think you're being a tad optimistic in thinking that they'll do what you (correctly) say is needed... 😉
In other words, yes there is an easy way to sort out solar charging and LFP -- but it either involves a degree of knowledge that some/many boaters don't have (manual intervention), or spending more money than most are willing to spend on a proper BMS which does all this for them automatically.
I tailored my answer to the questioner, as any good answerer would do. MtB is not stupid, he is quite clever at mending boilers and I think he would have no problem with charging to 100% once a month. 1% a week doesn't present a huge problem, that would be 4% after a month, or stretch it to 8% after 2 months. Not a particularly onerous situation. And if the error drift was negative, then eventually the battery would reach 100% whilst the indicated SoC was say 90%, which would then reset the BMV automatically. So it is only potentially a latent problem if the drift is positive.
One can reset the zero on the BMV712 and probably this can be used to reduce the error below 1%/week.
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3 minutes ago, IanD said:
Equally, I disagree -- my system uses voltage (and charging current, and cell balance, and history, and various other things) to control/terminate charging, and has absolutely no problems doing this, as the plot shows. And will continue to do so even if SoC accuracy drifts, which is exactly what happens in many systems -- especially if they don't regularly charge up to the absorption voltage (100% SoC) like both our systems do.
Your system works for you, because you designed it and understand it and know all this full well. Mine works because it uses a properly-designed (and expensive!) BMS set up properly for the cells in the system, and which controls the whole charging system via a Cerbo.
But not everyone is you or me -- for LFP newbies who don't understand all this or have less-capable BMS, using SoC -- which may be in error -- for charge control is not a good idea, especially if they don't understand why regular charging to 100% SoC is needed and the system doesn't do this automatically (like mine, and I suspect yours) so relies on them doing this manually.
The question was "is there an easy way to ...". Obviously a system that takes into account voltage AND charging current etc is a good way to do it. However it is not easy (or cheap) to install as a DIY project. Whereas using a BMV712 to control charge termination based on SoC, is.
We are not talking about my boat's system, or your boat's system. We are talking about a simple way to avoid fully charging a Li battery from solar every day.
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41 minutes ago, IanD said:
True, but the problem is that close to 100% SoC the voltage -- which is what affects battery life -- changes rapidly, and the SoC changes hardly at all -- and as a calculated figure SoC can be inaccurate (see other posts) so shouldn't be used for charging decisions, voltage should be used instead -- and also charging current, if the controller can do so.
If the BMV712 (or anything else, including the MPPT controllers) can use voltage to terminate charging (e.g. at 13.5V) this is the correct approach, not using SoC. That's what the manufacturers (including Victron) say, and they should know their products... 😉
I disagree. It is hard to use voltage as the trigger to terminate charging since the voltage vs SoC relationship is very flat over the relevant range, and the voltage vs charge rate is relatively steep. So if you set decide to terminate solar charging at 13.5v (which is far too low IMO) and there is strong sunlight (= fast charging) then the 13.5v will be reached early at a low SoC. If on the other hand it is overcast (= slow charging) then the SoC at which the terminating charge will be reached will be much higher. You can set the BMV712 to terminate solar charging at the specified voltage, but it doesn't work for the reasons explained and is thus the wrong way to do it.
Using SoC is the correct way to do it, albeit one does have to fully charge every couple of weeks / a month or so to reset the BMV to 100%. This can be accomplished by changing a setting in the solar, disabling the relay in the BMV or adding a switch into the cable to manually force full charging.
And 80% is a very low terminating SoC, something more like 90% or a bit more is better, and still avoids high cell voltages (cells going "up the knee") when charging at typical narrowboat rates.
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4 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:
I would not have the audacity to tell 50% of narrowboat owners that their boats are ugly.
But then you are well known for your shy and retiring public face.
5 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:If you passed a 35 year old CMer with a nose piercing and henna coloured hair on the K&A she might look at your boat and consider it as interesting as a castle at Euro Disney. She believes her boat is beautiful because it sends a signal of eco morality with its rainbow colour scheme, butterfly stencils on the cabin top, composting bins hooked on the aft rail and a roof full of solar tilted at the sun.
But then she is a barely-moving liveaboard, so the solar makes perfect sense in the world of compromises. Although I would comment on the wasteful carbon footprint of her henna hair dye and pointless steel bits in her face.
21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:From my perspective, a modest amount of solar was a no-brainer. No need for a shoreline charging and always coming back to well charged batteries, plus the extended battery life it gives if there is no shoreline with no need to arrange finishing one's cruise with well charged batteries, the solar sorted that over the next few days. However, it is the individual's choice.
All gone now in the days of Lithium, where the aim is to NOT leave your boat with fully charged batteries.
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A fairly easy way to control Victron solar charging to terminate at a specified SoC is to use the BMV712 relay function and a lead plugged into the VE.Direct port of the solar. If you have a BMV712 that is!
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5 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:
Not really, I am suggesting to the OP that over time the 5-month summer cruise profile won't be that different to the typical offgrid CCer doing 500 to 700 miles a year.
As ever internet forum pontifications are sustained through arguments over edge cases, in this case the edge cases are CMers doing < 20 miles per year and high milage cruisers doing 2500 a year. Arguing over edge cases does not help the OP unless he uses these to define a bracket of normality.
In part it depends on whether you have any sense of aesthetics. If you don’t care that your boat looks ugly due to loads of solar cluttering up the roof, then fine. We do care though, so we don’t have any. Just because you don’t care about the aesthetics doesn’t mean you should try to force your opinion on people who do, and vice versa.
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6 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:
I am not surprised the forum experts are arguing for no solar despite the overwhelming evidence that will be seen during a 3 mile talk down the towpath. The forum is increasingly at odds with reality.
Presumably during this 3 mile talk you are alone? Otherwise any companion is going to have to feign deafness.
A lot of boats on the towpath have solar. This is because they mostly use the canals as a place to live and don’t want to move much. A bit of a clue is that they are moored during your 3 mile talk, not chugging along. Unless you are accustomed to talking for 3 miles at night?
A boat set up for cruising is a different kettle of fish. We don’t have any solar because we move every day or at least every couple of days. Solar is ugly and a nuisance so only of merit if the boat usage justifies it.
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Your proposal is fine. No problem to connect 2 alternators to one battery, and use a B2B (or two) to charge the Li. Have the B2B operation controlled by the ignition switch.
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2 hours ago, dmr said:
It depends on where it is, how hot the engine room is and how much good airflow you get to the alternator etc etc, and how much fluff/dog hair has got into the alternator cooling passages 😀 A very rough rule of thumb is half its rated output, so 35amps, you might get more if you are lucky.
At this very moment my 100amp Iskra is producing 60 amps with the clever regulator limiting its temperature.
... and of course how hot you are prepared to run it - compromise between charge current and longevity. From my limited experience I would say that 2/3rds the rated output is the max you should consider.
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2 minutes ago, LadyG said:
Your right of course, NaCl , sodium chloride is salt!
But Milton is very weak, it is used to sterile babies bottles, so half a bottle would be useless in a 500l water tank
It is used to sterilise babies bottles, but it is muchly diluted when doing so. I’m inclined to agree about 500l but we did it with about 50litres in the tank. Chlorine gas is given off, and in the confines of a water tank I think even the bits above water are sterilised. In any event the bottom line is that it worked for us.
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1 hour ago, LadyG said:
We ve been through this before.
Chlorine is used to kill bacteria and nasties in mains water.. it is not sterile.
Milton is used to stetilise babies bottles, after bottle is washed it is clean but not sterile
To stetilise a reasonably clean 500l tank would require a litre of Domestos or about 200l of Milton!
The active ingredient in Milton is NaCl, sodium choride, as is Domestos.
Using Puritabs will not perforate S/S.
All those milk tankers you see on the roads are washed then sterilused with a chlorine detegent then flushed, every day. They do not leak. They last for many years.
In the food and dairy industry the main steriliser is sodium hypochlorite.
Dont use a random hose on a random tap.
Buy a proper hose if you are worried There are concerns that plastic garden hose will increase cancer risk. Either way, use your own and flush two minutes
By the time mains water gets to the house from the chlorine dosing station it is nearly inactive. Occasionally one can taste the chlorine in mains water, but not always. The water is dosed and tested for bacteria before it gets to the consumer.
No, the active ingredient in Milton is sodium hypochlorite NaOCl. Big difference! You don’t need much to sterilise a water tank, maybe 1/2 a bottle - assuming the tank is only about 10% full.
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Our boat, which was new in 2012, has a stainless steel water tank. After a few years we started to notice a slight odour and taste from the water. Not chlorine, more like some bug. So we mostly emptied the tank, added some Milton, left it for a few hours and pumped that through the system, then rinsed etc. That was probably 8 years ago and the issue has never recurred. We always drink water from the tap - we are still alive after all these years!
All 240v power out - troubleshooting advice?
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted
It’s all a bit silly really. Gas work can be done by anyone on a leisure boat. Then some time later, the owners decide to live on the boat. So the previous “uncertified” work remains unexamined by a GS person (until the next BSS) in 3 years time or whatever). And how long g do you have to reside on the boat for it to become residential? A night? A week? A month? A year? Who knows.