GRPCruiserman

I haven't bought a canal magazine for a long time now, it got to the stage where there was little of interest any more to us GRP cruiser users and the news is usually gleaned from the towpath telegraph or the BW and IWA magazines. There used to be loads about cruisers about ten years ago, chicken and egg I suppose, no cruisers so no articles, or no cruisers because no-one buys them as they no longer seem to exist in the magazines. I prefer Motor Boats Monthly as they still have much to interest GRP boat users. The press at events prefer to photgraph steel boats also. Just my opinion, of course, if I had a narrow boat I'd probably still buy the magazines.

When I had a 15 foot cruiser I ran with a 40Ah Ford Escort Battery which received no charge from the engine as it was rope start with no charge facility. Running a single flourescent, a car radio/cassette, and occasionally the CB, it would last me a whole weeks' holiday and still not run out. The cost of the battery about £15. It only lasted a season, but then again at £15 that wasn't a problem. On the 20foot Norman I now had a Black/White 10in TV and an electric water pump. Going futrther afield, I now needed a tunnel lamp, so invested in two 85amp leisure batteries which were well capable of starting the 400cc 20HP electric start engine which also charged at about 1.5 amps at 4mph and hit the highs of 5 amp at 12 mph up the tidal Trent. The two batteries lasted two and a half weeks running at about 3 or four hours cruising daily, with odd running of the CD player and I still had charge left at the end of the 2.5 week stint. I now have a Dawncraft 25 with an 8HP manual start outboard and the batteries still last about 4 days each, even running the colour TV, Freeview box, and several lights. Running the inverter, even on light loads such as the VCR or the SKY box do drain them more, though. I found Thorne Marine on the Bridgewater VERY helpful and they charged a battery for me overnight for a modest fee last August. We therefore had a fortnight including our stay at the national last summer on the equivalent of three 85 Ah batteries. We cook by gas, heat by solid fuel, and have no fridge and manage just fine. The 85Ah leisure batteries were purchased for £21.95 each from a local caravan store so not a huge investment. I may buy one more for next summer so not to be reliant on a boatyard to recharge it. I prefer to run one battery at a time so you know where you are up to. If I had an inboard engine with a large alternator, then shorly the output would keep up with the use. I suppose if I lived on the boat it would be different, but I do think that modern narrowboats have far more elctrical items than necessary. More than once I have moored near a narrowboat which has found it necessary to run their engine twice daily to recharge their batteries whilst moored for a few days. From a cruiser owner's point of view, if you have large electrical demands, then at least buy enough batteries so that you can moor for as long as you need or want to without having to run your engine when moored and annoy everyone else. I suppose you'd need a bigger alternator to recharge them if you are not cruising much, so I suppose it all depends on your moored up/cruising time ratio. If the ratio is high in favour of being moored up, buy a lot of large batteries and a very large alternator. If you cruise more than moor, then you need less. Happy boating.

What is Locks & Quays??? What channel is that on and when???

I am in Granada Land as well, and it's a pain we don't get Waterworld, just the 2002/2003 repeats on Discovery Home and Leisure. Now I know it's on I can record it through satellite. Thanks for the info all.

One used to get on my Norman 20 one winter, though luckily it never got in the cabin. It left a right mess in the cockpit, especially in one locker, had to strip out and replace the wood, all soaked in. I tried everything to get it to stop coming on, the only thing that worked was a portable alarm bought from B&Q for about £20. I fitted it in the cockpit and you had about thirty seconds to input your code before it shrieked for a minute then reset itself. The mink obviously set it off when it came on and did a runner, and then the alarm would reset itself for the next time the mink came on when it would go off again. By the next weekend the mink had jumped ship, never to return !!!! Aparently they are less likely to come on if yoy stay on the boat regularly as they don't like human smell, but this occured in the winter when I didn't use my Norman.

Cheapest boat I had was my 16 foot Yeoman kept on a trailer and launched when needed. Cost: Waterway explorer licence, now £65. Insurance, £55 per year Engine Service, £100 per year Petrol (depends on your mileage, you get 31 days (not consecutive) on an explorer licence, so five hours per day, 20 miles, 610 miles per year at about 10mpg, 61 gallons, £5 per gallon including two stroke oil, £305. Storage FREE if at home, Slipways, anything from FREE to £35 was the most I paid, average about £15 both ways, we had a ten day trip and a few long weekends, so about 10 launches in all, £150. Total: £675 for the year, all in. The year after I put in in the water for the year, this deducted the slipway and explorer licence and added mooring at £100 per year, BW online permit which now costs about £150, and the licence for the year (cheapest band), £321, cost, £356 extra, Total: £1031 for the year. We now have a 25 foot Dawncraft GRP boat which has added £66 to the licence, about £30 to the mooring permit, and £60 to the insurance. It is on the same jetty so that still costs £100. It also only does about 6mpg. Also because it is bigger and has a solid fuel stove we use it a lot more, so the petrol bill is higher, say another £200. So for £1400 per year, all our holidays and weekends are there. A bit cheaper than your average narrowboat.

LOL, but surely the wash created would only be similar to that created on The Llangollen anyway with the speed that most of the hire boats seem to go up that stretch !! I was thinking more of The River Douglas or Ribble.

WITHOUT PREDJUDICE If Britsh Waterways Marinas has been created as a seperate entity from British Waterways, surely the assetts of Britsh Waterways Marinas were simply transfered from British Waterways and so the organisation has been set up using publicly owned assetts and not private funding. This is certainly the case as proven at Galgate Marina where a new sanitary station was installed which had been purchased (prefab) prior to the creation of British Waterways Marinas. An assurance was given at the time that the previously installed prefab sanitary station at Galgate would then be moved to Glasson Dock where at some expense a base had already been installed. This facility would encourage visits to Glasson Dock by boaters and is a facility that is needed at that location. After the creation of British Waterways Marinas, it would seem that the Sanitary Station is now owned by British Waterways Marinas and so cannot be moved. We now have the bizarre situation that we have two, fully operational, sanitary stations within a few hundred yards of each other, and none at Glasson Dock where there is an unused base. The locks have been changed on the older sanitary station and it is now for the exclusive use of the marina moorers. Incidentaly, the showers at White Bear Marina are also now only accessable by moorers at that location by way of a numeric code, so a facility has been lost at that location to others. Does this mean that money that would have been used by British Waterways for the maintenance of the canals etc, has now been transfered by way of assetts to British Waterways Marinas which is of no benefit to British Waterways or their licence holders, or is their some financial arrangement whereby the property is leased or rented to British Waterways Marinas by British Waterways. If the NHS were to build a new hospital then transfer another hospital that originally had been designated for another, public, use, to a newly formed company called National Health Hospitals, then denied the facility to all accept those who could afford to pay for the hospital, ie a private hospital, do you think the local population would be happy? Perhaps I am totally wrong about my facts, and if that is the case then I apologise, but I would ask whether this is the case, and whether this has any bearing on what is being discussed here? Apologies to all concerned if I am incorrect. I await BW's reply.

Take EVERYTHING out of the boat, cushions, anchors, tins of food, absolutely everything not function for navigation or safety related, you'll find it rises a good inch or two in the water, then take her out on unrestricted water on your own. With the 25 on you should get her to plane.

I've actually had four seperate engines on the Dawcraft at different times, a Honda 10HP four stroke which performed very similarly to the Evinrude 8hp two stroke, ie 3.5mph maximum. A 15hp Honda four stroke which would push the boat over 4mph but never tried maximum as never went off the canal. Much better for manouverability than the 10, and cruised at 3.7mph at reasonable revs. The 20hp Mariner 2 stroke (a Mercury really). The best of all, good turn of speed on the river, 8mph, very responsive, chugging slowly and very underworked on the canal, with power to stop etc when needed. Unfortunately decided to go bang after 10 years of completely unflinching service this last summer. So I'm left with the 8hp Evinrude. Previously I've had various boats: Yeoman 16: 20hp Mariner - gave about 25/30mph on the River, VERY responsive on the canal, not good for wash, but still better than most narrow boats, even at 4mph. More like a speed boat. 8hp Evinrude - Fine, running quite slow revs at 4mph. 10hp Honda (sold with boat) ideal for the canal, more power than really needed, running slow revs at 4mph. Norman 20: 20hp Mariner - The best boat / engine combination I ever had, gave 12mph on open water, but still fine at 4mph, took us everywhere, up the Trent from Keadby right to the Erewash junction, up to Lincoln, and some of The Chesterfield canal, The Leeds Liverpool, Aire and Calder, some of The Calder & Hebble, Bridgewater, Trent and Mersey, Shropshire Union to Wolverhampton, Llangollen, and of course the Lanky, never missed a beat until last summer on current boat, still returned 10mpg on the canal and 12mpg at speed. 6hp Evinrude 2 stroke. - Flat out 5mph, fine at 4mph. Much better than the 8 on the 25 Dawncraft, that 5 foot makes such a difference. Fame Concorde 15: 25hp Johnson - bit like the Yeoman with the 20hp Mariner, but even faster on the river!! 6hp Evinrude - Ideal on the canal, 4mph with much to spare. 4hp Mercury - OK even against quite strong tides Very light boat but didn't have a GPS then so don't know exact speeds!! Denmar 15: 20hp Johnson - Only used on Windermere, very quick. So the size of the boat (and what you put in it!! has a very marked effect. The Dawncraft is best of the lot for wash.

After suffering a catastrophic engine malfunction in the summer, I have now got an eight horsepower engine on my 25 foot Dawncraft and so can now only travel at 3.5mph maximum. The Dawncraft actually produces NO wash whatsoever at this speed, and in fact I used to be able to acheive 3.7mph with NO wash, and 4mph with negligable wash when I had the 20hp fitted. (GPS checked) I put this down to good hull shape and lack of draft. It does mean it now takes longer to get anywhere, and the handling is a bit ropey, specially when it is windy, and I have virtually no reverse, just lots of splashing, so blind bridges are interesting, but generally, things are a lot more relaxed, and I dont have to worry about slowing down for anyone or speeding. Apart from the occasional Freeman coming up my **** from behind, I have no canal rage issues, and never get 'stuck' behind a narrow boat, and I still get 6mpg as I did with the 20hp, so apart from extra noise, all is well (the revs are a lot higher!!). It is also a bit tricky on the tidal rivers, but it's just a case of stopping more often and timing the tide just right. It seems to do about 4.5mph on slack deep water. Traditional narrow boats seem to produce much less wash than their new counterparts, so perhaps we have much yet to learn from their design. Anyway, the point of my post: Is there not some kind of speed thingy just before Llangollen that's been there for years? I know they've now got speed cameras on Windermere to enforce their new speed limit. Modern Narrow Boats seem to be more designed for interior requirements than hull shape, whereby really it should be the hull shape design first to minimise wash etc, with the interior being fitted around it. This is how boats were always designed; a boat first, then somewhere to stay, whereas now, it would seem the accomodation comes first, and navigation second. Try looking in the average sailing cruiser.

Linear moorings on The Lancaster are getting harder and harder to get, as boats increase in length, then each boat takes up more linear footage. That means that each person is now occupying the space that two did some years ago before cruisers were replaced in the majority by narrowboats. I have a 25foot GRP cruiser which costs me £100 per year to the farmer plus £200 to BW for a mooring permit. The farmer does charge double for a narrowboat, as it takes up two moorings so to speak. Don't know how much mooring permits are for narrow boats, but I would have thought that they wouldn't be double, so BW are actually loosing a bit as it were. We have no electric, but there is a tap in the farm yard, and a water point about a quarter of a mile away. Nearest sanitary stations are about 4 miles North and 5 miles south. There are some new residential moorings on The Lanky but they cost £1800 per year!! I can barely afford what I'm paying now, I certainly couldn't afford what all you guys are paying. I used to have a smaller boat, and this one seems to cost a load more. They are certainly making boating a rich man's pastime. This happened on Windermere a few years ago and drove all the average income people off the lake. Looks like the canals are going the same way. It's now almost impossible to find boats under £1000 to buy as well, and there used to be loads everywhere.

I always moor with bow and stern springs which restrict the amount that the boat moves, so the passers by have to really be shifting some water to cause us any problems. Us GRP cruisers tend to cause less wash, but I still slow down. Also, the shape of the hull is very important, ie my Yeoman 16 used to create far more wake than my Dawncraft 25 does at the same speed. On the GPS, I had to slow to about 2 mph on the Yeoman, whereas at 3.2mph the Dawncraft creates virtually no disturbance what so ever, so size and weight are only one factor. Also many old working narrow boats create much less wash than many modern narrow boats, so perhaps the current builders have much to glean from old. It could, of course, be the weight of Gas central heating, 20000000000000 megawatt hours of batteries, generator, bath, showers, TV, HiFi, and DVD systems and other modern essentials than largely empty working boats are not fitted with !!

There always seem to be a few narrow boats in Preston Marina (Lancs) and I don't think the charges are too prohibitive. Moorings are Pontoons and have electric and water and you do not need your BW licence. Hope this helps.

Alright for some, we don't get Waterworld in the North West. When is it on? perhaps I can get through the extra channels on my Sky box.

Is there a salt water site where we can go to kill off the algae then ?? Seriously, perhaps if anyone works anywhere where they make those decals that we stick inside windows (not the glued ones, just the ones that stick), then perhaps they could run some off to stick in our boats. That way we'd know when we were passing other forum members. We could be moored next to one at the National and not know!! What do other people think?

GRP Cruisers give you a much cheaper start in to the boating world. I am going to the national too, where do we get the CWF badges from dhutch? Incidentally, what are the green dots for under our names?

What a cracker for the money. I still can't afford it though

It all depends on hull shape. A planing hull will generate a lot of wash as it approaches planing speed, but that is generally around 12-15 mph so this is unlikely to come in at 4mph. Normans are a shallow 'V' shape which can generate a lot of wash, but can do 4mph without a canal banking breaking wash, but should still slow down when passing moored boats. Dawncrafts, however, have a 'tunnel' almost cathedral/cat shaped hull which generates almost no wash even at up to 4mph. Again, though, perception rears it head, because a small boat doing four mph looks like it is actually traveling much faster because it produces many small ripples at the bow, instead of fewer, larger ones. I have had a number of small boats, always fitted with GPS to give an acurate speed reading, and have regularly been accused of speeding, even though the wash generated was very small, and the GPS has said 3 or 3.5 mph. This coupled with smaller, faster running engines, gives the impression to the 'less-wise' of higher speed. This situation is becoming more noticable as the number of people who come in to boating straight in to a narrow boat is increasing. If everyone had started in a cruiser then they would understand. Regards The Lancaster Canal, it is still populated with many cruisers, I agree, but it is the high numbers of small 'starter ' type cruisers that seem to have disappeared. I agree with dhutch, any kind of boat is better than none, look at all the converted ship's lifeboats there used to be. I was only wondering where all the little boats were.

I agree, I think it is a 'perception' thing. Maintainence yards that handle GRP do ssem to be rare, these days,but I suppose GRP really lends itself to DIY. The hull usually requires little maintainence except where wooden bits are attached, and fibre glass bonding is like using any other glue!! I am not a DIY expert and am certainly no mechanic, but GRP boats are so simple, and I get my engine (outboard) serviced by taking the engine to the local outboard expert. When it wears out, I'll have to pay a few hundred pounds for anyother one. I recently sold a GRP cruiser for £700 with engine, and the phone rang off the hook!! There is a huge market for them, and when you consider I neither made a profit nor a loss on the boat and had four years of cruising on it, tidal, and on various canals, including our yearly two week holiday,boating does not have to be expensive. When I tell people I have a boat on the canal, they immediately think of a narrow boat, and can't understand how I can 'afford' it. When I tell them it cost to buy less than their car and costs less to run than they spend on drink in a weekend, they are amazed. A friend of mine spent nearly as much on a starter motor for their narrow boat a few weeks ago as I usually spend on a boat!! As you say, it's all down to perception.

This post wasn't meant to be a cruiser v narrow boat post, I beleive there are good and bad boat drivers from both camps. I did say that the bad ones were a minority, I just seem to remember that ten years ago or so, there were many many cruisers, and although there still are in some areas, there are a lot which seem to have just disappeared, and there seems to be no explanation as to where these have gone?? To encourage boaters to the canals, cruisers are MUCH cheaper to buy, use, and run, and it is a shame that the opportunities do not present themselves to those of us on lower incomes. Is there a GRP cruiser mountain somewhere? Like the fridge mountains??

We cruised from near the top of Wigan locks to Skipton and back during the week running up to the Easter Bank Holiday, and we passed only one boat all the way there, and only five boats on the way back on the Bank Holiday Weekend!! (up to Johnson's Hillock. It got busier at Johnson's Hillock Top Lock, but there was no queuing for the lock, and these were the only locks that we were able to share, there being no other boats coming in the same direction!! The scenery is excellant, indeed breathtaking at some points, with excellant facilities along the way, showers at regular intervals, and many nice mooring spots. With the exception of much debris in the water through Blackburn and this side of Burnley, all was well In other words, a wonderful holiday with the peace and quite that one would want to experience, without the hustle and bustle of Llangollen. The stretch between Wigan and Scarisbrick is also very under used, and the scenery is superb between Wigan and Burscough, and down The Rufford Arm. It's like anything else, you can't say all roads are gridlocked because the M6 at Birmingham is busy!! Try the roads in the Scottish Highlands!! Or The Leeds Liverpool Canal in Lancashire and West Yorkshire, you'll find out what quiet is. Superb!!

The canals are fine for GRP, no problems, the only issues are with narrow boat 'steerers' (a minority, I must admit) who have scant regard for the needs of GRP cruisers and who tend to look down on us as car drivers do to motor cyclists, or 4x4 drivers do to car drivers. Most narrow boaters are fine, it is just some who create the problems. Not always hirers either!! Although my second trip up the Llangollen two years ago was a bit of a nightmare with hire boaters!!

Just wondering if anyone knows what has happened to all the small GRP cruisers that used to populate the canal system. I have a GRP cruiser and in some parts of the system it is now seen as almost unique!! There used to be a lot of GRP cruisers that came up under the section 8 powers of BW for sale by tender. Many of these were then bought for pittance by now loving owners. The system is more and more being orientated towards narrow boats, even down to the spacing of rings, marina design etc, provision of pump out in favour over showers, fewer water points, and even the lack of petrol indication in boating guides. Also the towing through Standedge tunnel on The Huddersfield Narrow Canal appears to be very steel boat orientated. Slipways are also becoming rarer. At a major waterway festival, GRP boats are now excluded from the canal boating area and have to moor with the sea going craft. I am sure I read somewhere that if BW 'snatch' a boat by way of section 8 and the value is decided to be less than £1000 then the boat is destroyed? Is this correct? Surely BW could sell these as 'starter' boats to encourage new users of the canal system. The linear mooring situation is surely made worse by the average length of a boat getting longer? Does anyone know the answers to these questions? Or am I alone in this opinion?