Big COL

Maffi Wheels turn a full circle. We have closed most of our coal mines, steel works, etc, as long as we don't lose the skills, when the wheel comes around again, and it will, we are still sitting on huge resources of coal and ore, others may have depleted theirs, supplying us with cheap products.

Dor Sorry cannot agree, the argument is that the boats are acting like the plates in a battery. Two separate boats, sitting in an electrolyte, each connected to earth, the land mass between the earths becomes the load and a reaction will occur. Well that's the theory. If you were to link all the plates together inside a battery it wouldn't operate as a battery and you could then quite happily short out the terminals.

Maffi, Chris, Dor, Gary Hi guys Interesting debate going on here, if you were to hardwire bond the boats together they would then be of equal potential and being of equal potential the problem does not exist.(Gary does not agree with this, but any current flow will take the easiest path ie through the bonding cables) as water, although a conductor, is not one of the better ones. I know, totally impracticable, but just to keep the debate going. Assuming the theory on this subject is correct, but to my way of thinking the jury is still out. Surely the only certain or near as certain as one can be, without any data confirmed by controlled tests, as opposed to scare mongering by manufacturers, who have a commercial interest in doing so, is to fit an isolation transformer in the supply from the land line, this effectively leaves your boat an isolated island without any hardwire connections to any land based supply. This is the method that I have used on my boat, as I do believe there is some credence in some of this but cannot commit to it totally because of the lack of evidence. Hence my decision to use an isolation transformer, as I can understand the physics of it. As to sacrificial anodes I believe that this was another commercial scam. What area is covered by the anode? On a 70' boat with an anode at bow and stern one assumes they are providing a radial protection in excess of 35' - highly unlikely, fit them end on end down the length of the hull and you may then get some protection.

Dan Adjust the belt, this link belt as you describe it is Brammer belting widely used in industry in applications where normal V belts cannot be used. the belt is adjustable by removing or adding links. If the belt is too loose slip it off the pulleys, split the belt as it's designed to be split, remove one link, rejoin the belt and then stretch it back over the pulleys. These belts wear over the cross section just the same as normal V belts, it would be advisable if your belt has been slipping to replace it with a length of new belting. The modern Brammer belting is easier to split than the old style.

Richard Yes you do. Please let us know the end result.

Rick Is the ring going past the cal being used? ie to warm the engine room. Normal practice is that the last rad or cal in this case,makes the link from the flow and return. You could fit a valve on the flow after the connection to the cal and when this valve is closed the cal will make the link. What John is suggesting is for you to balance the system. Try this first but use the balance valve if you have them fitted this is on the other end of the rad from the on/off valve, doing it this way enables you to close a rad down should you need to without interfering with the balance of the system. You could also have an air lock in the cals coil try cracking the joint on the flow just befor the cal and bleed off some water into a dish.

Have a look at what Reading college have to say on galvanic isolators,also have a look at isolation transformers. www.reading-college.ac.uk/marine/cover.html John are you moonlighting at the college?

Richard Are the rads getting hot? Is the first rad hotter than the second? How hot is the flow leaving the second rad and going to the cal? how hot is the return after the cal? also is the pump going the right way (as some pumps have a brown and black wire and the polarity is not as you would expect)? Finally what is the temperature differential between the flow and return at the boiler.

Ok guys whats the correct terminology when applied to pumps? cavitation or ventilation

Ian The soot is actually a problem, it's indicating that your stove is not burning efficiently.This is the same as a car on choke where the petrol mixture is richer than normal and you get black smoke. Oil stoves need regular maintainance - the burner pot should be decoked about every 6 weeks. The principal that these stoves work on is they physicaly do not burn liquid diesel, as you start the stove off with a piece of firelighter your fuel setting should be at the minimum, as the burner pot warms up it will eventually get to a temperature where the fuel entering vaporises and ignites. This vapour is actually burning 1/2" above the base of the pot, at this point you can slowly increase the flow of fuel.The flame should burn with a blue tint, if it is burning with a yellow flame with wisps of black smoke then you have too much fuel coming in for the air available through the stove. The problem with oil stoves on boats is because of the short length of flue they have a very low draw this means the speed that the hot fumes escape at controls what air can be drawn in through the stove to replace it and therefor determines the ammount of fuel that your stove can use for the correct combustion. To maintain the efficiency of your stove you need to keep the flue as clean as you can and decoke the burner pot regularly, also when the stove is running you need to keep the flue gasses as hot as you can - a doubled walled chiminey will help this - plus you need to check that you are not getting any downdraft, this is when the wind blows back down the chiminey. When the stove has been running for some time check the gasses leaving the chimney - all you should see is a heat haze. If there is any black smoke then your fuel setting is too high. Generally the controls on these stoves will allow you to over supply fuel You need to play with the controls by gradually increasing the setting until you start to get wisps of black smoke out of the chimney, then close the control gradually until the smoke disappears,(allow 2 min between each adjustment as it will take this amount of time for the stove to react). This will indicate the limit that you can go to so as not to overfuel the stove, if at any time you do go too far you may find that the stove sounds like a chip pan boiling. This is exactly what is happening, there is too much fuel present and instead of vapourising and burning it's boiling on the floor of the burner pot, close the valve back to minimum and allow the stove to burn off the excess fuel then slowly increase the flow First generation stoves tend to be more troublesome as they were domestic stoves valved down and fitted on boats, second generation stoves, sometimes called blueflame, are much better as they are designed for the low draw that you get on boat chimineys. I hope this imformation is of some help if nothing else you know how a stove works.

Chris Try and compare boiler outputs and efficiency to price, this may explain the price differential. Most of the small stoves used on boats, the boilers only have around a 2kw output, bubble have a model which has a 3kw boiler,

Noah Optimate have a model that is capable of being used on the start battery. I use one of these on my bow thruster battery, I think I paid about £60 for this. It works really well but, as I have said only for the start battery, as it is too undersized to handle the domestic set up.

Paul Re your last post, if you do decide to do the alteration, the bypass has to be at the aldi end as close as you can get it to the aldi. Not on the back of the stove as this will not work and you will need two valves as shown in yesterday,s drawing, as I said just clarifying your last post.

Paul Gas two/three times dearer than the stove.

Chris Some questions, firstly why go for a gravity system - kiss applies also to a fully pumped system and allows the pipes to be low down and can be far more versatile. Secondly do they make fin rads in 28mm, which they will need to be on a gravity system? If 28mm fin rads are available then I can see no reason why this should not work, remember that when you come into the panel rad at the top , the return connects at the bottom diagonally opposite. This is also a good position to connect the feed from the header tank and then take the vent/bleed off from the other top connection directly above it. Best regards Colin

John Thats not fair its only two valves, could have gone the whole hog an made it automatic using magvalves and relays. best regards Colin

SALOON GALLEY BATHROOM BEDROOM 1 BEDROOM 2 ...etc STOVE -----------------RAD1 ----------RAD2 ---------RAD3 -----x---- ALDI | -------------------------------------------------------------------|<-bypass | -------------------------------------------------------------------x valve |__________________________________________| return (note: dotted lines are not pipes - just there to space out drawing ) As John suggests you have a reversal of flows with the two boilers. I have shown a way that you can isolate the aldi and use the stove, and vice versa. It will require you to fit a valved bypass after the last rad and before the aldi, between the flow and return from the aldi. also a valve on the flow after the bypass and before the aldi. To use the stove you open the valve on the bypass and close the valve on the flow. To use the aldi you close the valve on the bypass and open the valve on the flow. I have adapted your drawing to show the position of the two valves. In doing this you must be absolutely CERTAIN that you are not cutting off the supply from the header tank. The aldi has its own combined header tank so if you isolate the aldi as I have suggested the stove must have a header tank to allow for the expansion. This is an absolute must. It can be connected into the return where you fit the bypass. You didn't say how your rads are plumbed - if they are not plumbed for a gravity system then you will need a pump on the system when you use the stove. This can also go in the bypass pipe. Hope this is of some help Best Regards Colin

Richard Just thinking out loud, and not being critical, as I am sure you you have thought this through, but for the benefit of the others that are following this thread and may decide to replicate your system here are just a few thoughts that crossed my mind. If you were to use both pipes through the rads as the flow, what size of pipe would you need to use from the boiler to the first rad,where it divides ? It would have to be larger than 22mm or you gain no advantage. You are doubling the surface area for the collection of heat on the flow so you must increase the available heat or the last rads on the system will never get hot. What is the size of the separate return ? This should be equal to the pipe that you use on the flow. Also what size boiler are you using ? If you make the system more efficient to give off a certain quantity of heat the boiler has to be capable of remaking that heat, at the the very least - at the same rate, if it cannot do this you will have to balance the system and any advantage will have been lost. As you know you can only get out what you put in,the boiler output should be the first thing to consider when designing a system. If it is not capable of producing the heat then this system will not work. There are not many boilers on narrowboats that I can see supplying the make up temperature to run a system of this design. Having said all this if all the criteria were met then you will have on hell of a system, may be too good for a well insulated narrowboat. Still you could always rename the boat to Richard's Sauna. best regards Colin

John I agree it does look that way, but I think it works by the difference in conductivity of the metals involved with the flow being the top pipe and made of copper, the aluminium fins conduct the heat up and away from the return and whatever heat remains in the return is collected and conducted up towards the flow. On my system the return is getting progressively cooler the more rads it passes through therefore the heat has been captured by the rads. If it was working as a heat exchanger you would expect the return to get progressively hotter. I am sure you will agree the physics here, but the explanation is my assumption, all I have to go on is my own system. best regards Colin

Richard Its the cumulative heat that the fins throw out, I have used both systems, and have used Claton's fin rads on my current boat. They are the most efficient rads that I have ever used. I have no connection with Clayton so there is no sales pitch here, they are just an extremely good product and easy to fit. I would stress that you send Clayton a layout and let them do the calcs, they do it for free, I checked their calculations for my boat and they were not trying to oversell. best regards Colin

Alistair Have a look at this link its something I came across when I was fitting out our boat. May be of interest to you. www.fluelessltd.co.uk/p_bradley.html

Alastair The current standing on the use of red diesel in the UK is that at the moment the UK has a derogation until the end of december 06. After this date unless the goverment do something then the UK has to come in line with the rest of Europe, which will prohibit the use of red diesel in all pleasure craft ie boats, off roaders etc with the exception of heating. I can see a lot of boaters returning to solid fuel or having to install a separate tank as the many conversions that I have been involved with most of them have used the main diesel tank as a supply because it was cheaper. Another point to consider is even if you have a separate tank for red diesel you may have to lug cans down the tow path to fill the heating tank, as most of the current suppliers on the canal that I have spoken to have indicated that, should this become law, then they will just switch over from red to white diesel and not bother with supplying red diesel as the cost involved to set up separate tanks and pumps just to supply the amount required for heating would not be cost effective. This will leave a lot of boaters being forced to pay the extra duty for their heating, as not evryone will be in a position to install separate tanks or be capable of lugging cans down the tow path. It's all bad news. Who wanted to be a state in the United States of Europe anyway, they didn't ask me, so they must have asked the rest of you. best regards Colin

On the subject of floors, and just out of interest, how many of you have inspection hatches at the rear of your boat that enables you to periodically check for water in the dry bilge?. If you haven't one then here is a little tip on a quick and easy installation.Select a suitable point between the bearers at the rear of the boat as close as you can to the steel bulkhead that divides the wet and dry bilges. Using a brass pumpout deck fitting drill the appropriate sized hole, clear as much ballast as you can, this may require you to hammer and chisel through a paving slab or a brick depending on what has been used for ballast (this doesn't mean a 14lb sledge hammer or kangos because if you do you won't need an inspection hatch to see if there's any water - you'll be standing in it). If it's steel ingots then you won't be able to remove any but don't worry, ideally its better if you can get down to the base plate. All you need to do now is hacksaw off the hosetail on the back of the pumpout fitting position it in place and screw it to the floor. For future inspections all you need to do is to unscrew the centre bung and with a torch you can see the base plate and any water present. Those who have steel ballast and couldn't remove any to see the base plate can feed a dry taper through as far as you can to see if there is water present. Should there be then you can pump it out from here until you find the cause. Before someone says it could just be condensation I am only providing the means for you to be able to see any water and not probable causes, that can be for another thread. For those of you that are at the ballasting stage this is the time to select your spot and leave a clear area then the fitting is easier. The idea of using a brassfitting is that you can polish it if it's in view, it's also neat and unobtrusive and eliminates the need to construct carriers that would be needed if it was a removable drop-in hatch,as I have said very easy at build stage, and quite easy on existing boats. Hope this helps some of you All the best Colin

Stuart 10,560'' cubed equates to approximately 38 Gallons. Weight =380lbs or 172Kg This was a quick calc on paper please check Colin