magpie patrick

That's fascinating and shows the emphasis on reliability - the timings also show how much the fast boats speeded things up. In summary the booklet suggests that at first comfort was the main factor, hence slower boats with dining, then speed to compete with the coach, then once the railways were established speed ceased to be of the essence as the boats couldn't compete.

I can't seem to get these to download - I've had no trouble with Pluto's offerings in the past (Exeter Canal springs to mind) but when I try the laptop just sits there grinning at me. Is the problem my end?

The opening paragraph of the booklet pretty well sets the scene a little further reading shows the boat was very similar to the one on the Union Canal. The text also states that Packet services had been run since the 1790s but these weren't especially fast. One note of interest, which changes my understanding of the operation, is that the fast boats did go through Tewitfield Locks. Many passengers chose to walk alongside but they didn't have to. The fast boats had priority and also two men who worked and set the locks. There is an instance where it was alleged that the fast packet demanding priority obstructed the possible rescue of someone who had fallen in, the skipper working the lock even though there was thought to be someone in it. The skipper denied this... The vessels were long and narrow, and to my mind astonishingly light 34cwt and 23cwt - 1.7 tonnes and 1.15 tonnes if I've got my conversion right. No wonder these things could shift! There is also a comment to the effect that the horses took a beating (metaphorically) and that after 4 miles a change was not just needed but essential

In the last ten minutes I've found this in a box of books that I've collected from dad's house - it's not very long so once I've read it I'll post a summary!

No, and TBH I think you may be overthinking this. Unless there is a blimmin great chunk missing from the prop just put the boat in the water and go

Yes, it's a Lancaster Boat, or rather, that is what the archive claims it to be and I've no reason to doubt it. The Lancaster is the usual source of the 10mph claim and it may have been the fastest of the fast, I haven't analysed other timetables and few had the benefit of a 42 mile pound! With any boat like this there is the dilemma between speed and payload - a similar dilemma is why the 747 is ubiquitous yet concord was a bit of a flop. Once trains were established, trying to get boats to do 10mph was a bit of a busted flush. And thank you for your statement in bold - it serves you well and is a good standard for discussion. Reflecting on it I think the Soliton wave is a bit of a distraction - it was discovered by the operation of a flyboat. The boat builders know how to make a fast boat, some were better at it than others. Be interesting (bit not necessarily relevant) to know how boat design influenced the creation of this wave - logically a boat with finer lines would make less of a wave Wonderful video! Now my turn to be a doubter though - it looks fast but I'm not sure it's 9mph fast, I've no evidence for that though other than we hoomans are notoriously bad at judging speed and tend to exaggerate it. Thank you! That makes sense - a horse running the 230 at Newbury is clearly using a lot more power than one plodding in the field, but for a much shorter time

It would have been appropriate as the literal translation of bete noir is "black beast"...

There's one near Swarkestone as well There's also two Weston Locks on the T&M

I've got Gladwin's book - in a box somewhere 😕 Didn't know of the other one, I shall look it up

To which I'd add, and in which direction are you? It won't be me dropping it off by the way, just seeking clarification for anyone who might!

Yes, but DMR might actually know rather than looking it up on Google So you are basing everything on Duchess Countess, a fly boat or packet boat designed for a particular traffic on a particular canal? Duchess Countess is famous for one reason and one reason only - the vessel lasted until 1956 and was described by Tom Rolt, who actually saw it. Most of the fast boats never saw the age of photography, we have only the descriptions of the time to go off. Some did get photographed, such as the Lancaster boats. The Lancaster boats advertised a 6am departure from Kendal and a 1pm arrival in Preston, which was double the speed of the coach on the same journey. Whilst this works out at just over 8 miles an hour, passengers disembarked and walked past Tewitfield Locks, and they certainly didn't cover the ground at 8mph for that bit! disembark, walk past the locks, embark again would certainly take half an hour (the gap is around 3/4 mile from top lock to bottom lock) and anyone who's managed such a group would probably allow anything up to an hour. The boats covering a little over 56 miles in six hours is rather closer to the stated 10mph average. Rough calculation of a hypothetical boat? What happens if you put the actual dimensions of one of these in? Horsedrawn please, no propellor - it's not just prop loss, the hydrodynamic is different when pulled from the bank

This is true, but if you look at the canals that were well known for fast boats (well known is a relative term here - well known to uber geeks who are also information sponges) they are, or were, canals with long, relatively straight and deep lock free levels - the Lancaster, The Shroppie, and the Union. No one in their right mind was going to try this on the southern Oxford! One also has to remember that the canals were in much better condition then My point is that someone here didn't believe these speeds of 10mph - they happened, not everywhere, but they did happen.

The soliton wave was discovered by a fly boat on the Union Canal in Scotland, this wave lifted the boat and enabled these higher speeds. The boat profile was different too - sometimes round bilge, sleeker than the typical cargo boat and certainly more hydrodynamic than the leisure brick of today. Passenger Boats between Bradford and Bath on the K&A were referred to as "Scotch Boats" as they were bought from the Union Canal and were significantly faster than anything else.

Sadly the solution was more prosaic for flyboats - the passengers walked round!

The original fly boats were horsedrawn, a mode of propulsion that causes far less issue with wash than propellor driven craft. 10mph average was not unknown, but to achieve this locks had to be avoided!

Thank you Tim! I knew someone would know where to find it!

Good suggestion - and now done thanks!

The Coventry is an odd one, I recall my surprise when I found it not only crossed a watershed but crosses THE major watershed of England! The Tame flows to the North Sea whilst the Avon falls to the Atlantic, and yet the Coventry doesn't start the descent to the Atlantic, nor does the Oxford, which at Fenny Compton becomes a complete Turncoat and heads back for the East Coast catchments! I haven't checked, but I suspect the construction of Harecastle Tunnel means the T&M was not the first to be finished

Morning all! Simple question that I hope has a simple answer - is there a list anywhere of National Trailboat Festival venues. The query has started because I know a number of South Wales Canals have hosted it but I can't find any reference to when this happened! Thanks in anticipation

I've been asked to have a look at the Newry Canal, desk study so I won't be going! I saw quite a lot about in the 90's and 00s. The blindingly obvious fact occurred to me that not only does the Newry predate the Bridgewater Canal by a decade or two - it opened in 1742 - but it genuinely crosses a watershed. The Newry climbs from the Bann and Lough Neagh at Whitecoat by the three locks to the Scarva summit, and then falls by ten locks (plus a sea lock) to Newry and Carlingford Lough, so it's not only older than the Bridgewater but genuinely crosses from one valley to another, and is probably the oldest canal in the British Isles to do so - canals like the Fossdyke are basically level with a lock at each end, the Scarva summit is clearly higher than the river at either end. So if Newry was the first, which one was next? Do we end up in a debate about which of Brindley's narrow canals was finished first? Second question - there has been partial restoration of the Newry, with half height lock gates, but this has happened since I was last there, and I'm not sure which locks have been restored like this, The pic is Campbell's lock which I think is at the north end of the summit, I'm not sure, nor do I know whether others have had this treatment Thanks in advance

I've noticed sometimes how long the vestige of a land use can hang around - not only do field boundaries often last for centuries but so do certain land uses, it's quite possible a timber yard would change hands (and the nature of the business model change dramatically) and the reason for it being there be long gone, but the site remain recognisable over a couple of centuries. Thanks David I'd forgotten that. ISTR side locks at Horbury and Figure of Three, and that the Dewsbury Branch (if that's what it's called) was once the main route back to the river? There's also Tag Foot (?) just above Brighouse but I don't know whether that was ever the main route?

Most English canals aren't lateral to remotely navigate rivers I guess, whereas the French even have the name Canal lateral de la.... the Aire and Calder seems to have gradually become more and more a lateral canal. The T&M had one more connection to the Trent, at Rugeley - this involved transhipment rather than a lock though.

These two canals are interesting and despite their apparent common purpose (linking the T&M to the Trent) they were very different. The Swarkestone Cut was to allow access to the Trent from Derby - presumably few takers as it didn't last long, and I don't suppose the T&M were overly keen on the idea otherwise they'd have done it themselves. The Bond End Canal extended navigation on the upper Trent to Shobnall - it was for access FROM the river, not access TO it. Cuts to lateral rivers weren't that common (ISTR they were more common in France, but that may just be that I remember quite a few - it's not a scientific analysis) - The Staffs and Worcs had two, at Pratts Wharf and Baswich, the latter of which is being restored. My very first post on this forum, back in 2007, was following a visit to the pump out there - the boat I then owned, a 62 foot ex-hire boat ""Ripple", had two loos, and the back one wouldn't empty, the pump-out machine went blue in the face trying!