Tony Dunkley

While the HL had not yet drawn abeam of the Maersk, any interaction between the two would have tended to draw the HL sideways to the Maersk's starboard quarter, at the same time causing the Maersk to start a swing to port, but I don't see any of that happening in the video clip. I think the HL intentionally moved out away from the Maersk to avoid any interaction, but hadn't given enough consideration to, and was caught out by, the shallows to starboard.

That didn't really look like interaction between the two ships, but more like the HL opening the gap to the Maersk and trying to avoid any such interaction, but in doing so, getting too close to what looks to be quite shallow water to starboard. Just as the HL starts the shear to port there appears to be a breaking wave caused by the draw from the HL, growing out from the starboard shore. From this point on the collision is inevitable, once a vessel of this size, or indeed even a much smaller ship, has smelled the ground and begun such a violent shear in relatively shallow and confined waters, there is really nothing that can be done. The Maersk would appear blameless and the collision caused by the HL's serious misjudgement in attempting to overtake in a too narrow and shallow channel.

What I meant is either top or bottom gates/paddles leaking . . . I did specify "the gates behind you" . . . whether that's top or bottom gates depends on which way you're going. tony dunkley, on 29 Sept 2014 - 1:51 PM, said: In the course of this thread it's occurred to me to ask if it is the normal practice among pleasure boaters to check the gates behind you for leakage whilst working, and especially just before leaving a lock. It was something always done without fail at every lock by professional boatmen, almost subconciously, it only needs a glance, as part of the process of working a lock, partly to reduce the chance of pounds dropping behind you and also to make sure that none of the paddles were partially fouled and hadn't gone right down, slowing the lock from filling or emptying as fast as possible.

I don't see why not.

Would anyone like to answer this?

It should not be a question of 'drawing ground paddles to find out', because if you're entering or leaving the top end of a lock with the pound significantly down then the paddles should be up any way. In Post 116 I said " loaded boats get in and out of locks noticeably quicker with the top paddles up, allowing the displaced water better passage to run back out of or in to the lock chamber." . . . Believe it . . . it's not an opinion or a theory, it's a fact . . . something I was taught, a frightening number of years ago, and then proved in use to be a very handy and useful thing to know. Loaded boats had something around a foot, or more, draught than most pleasure boats, so a loaded boat entering or leaving a lock with a full pound had roughly the same sort clearance over the cill as a pleasure boat with quite a low pound. Suggestions on here that a boat's hull, if over the cill, will stop water running through ground paddle holes is just complete nonsense.

Not so, . . . loaded boats get in and out of locks noticeably quicker with the top paddles up, allowing the displaced water better passage to run back out of or in to the lock chamber.

That's very true . . . One of my old skippers always reckoned that the main difference between amateur balls ups and those made by professionals, was that the professional ones were usually more spectacular.

They wouldn't have started working the lock because they couldn't get into it. You can see how far in it was in the photo.

Absolutely right . . . but any criticism of C&RT, justified or not, tends to upset certain members of this Forum . . . so yes, I think the entire system is beginning to revert back to the state of dereliction it was in after the last war . . . it's what C&RT mean when they talk about keeping people connected with History.

Rubbish . . . the swim is level with the ground paddles anyway.

In the course of this thread it's occurred to me to ask if it is the normal practice among pleasure boaters to check the gates behind you for leakage whilst working, and especially just before leaving a lock. It was something always done without fail at every lock by professional boatmen, almost subconciously, it only needs a glance, as part of the process of working a lock, partly to reduce the chance of pounds dropping behind you and also to make sure that none of the paddles were partially fouled and hadn't gone right down, slowing the lock from filling or emptying as fast as possible.

It certainly won't with the ground paddles down, as they are in this picture, they should have been lifted as soon as the boat got fast on the cill, then the level in the chamber wouldn't drop any quicker than the pound was doing.

You know what, . . . I think there's a real risk here that we might end up agreeing about something.

To get to this situation you would have to first not notice how low the pound is and fail to notice the leak at the bottom end, secondly, be unaware of what your own boat draws and get stuck part way out of the lock, and then stand gawping and not doing anything about it. Anyone putting up that sort of performance should really give some serious thought to taking up a different pastime. Having said all that, I do agree that an awful lot of pleasure boaters I've seen in action do go about their boating blissfully unaware of whats happening around them and just how quickly things can start going badly wrong if they don't pay enough attention to what they're doing.

No, because the top gate is open, and even with a boat stuck on the cill, water can still run into the chamber between the sides of it and the walls/gate, helped by leaving the ground paddles up. It's all going to happen a lot slower than when a boat gets hung on the cill when emptying a lock.

Don't leave the boat stuck on the top cill before going up to run some water . . . pull it back into the chamber clear of the cill and tie it there before leaving it.

You're right there, I' never been on the Huddersfield. During the time I spent working narrowboats, I believe it was closed and derelict anyway. But I stand by what I said . . . a leak in the bottom gates bad enough to drain even a short pound quickly enough to cause this, should not have gone unnoticed by whoever's working the lock. In fact, I've had motors in the position shown in the top picture on many occasions, but it was done deliberately for the purpose of getting rubbish such as wire or spring mattresses or tyres and the like off the blades(propellor).

Thanks for the warning, but it's about fifty years too late. If you find your self in this situation though, drop both top (ground) paddles and hold back (full power astern) hard for a couple of seconds and then ease the revs down, the resulting "flush", kept in the lock by the closed paddles, will quite likely lift the boat enough to get it moving back into the lock again and off the cill.

I don't think "hyper-alert" would be really necessary . . . . not totally gormless and stupid would seem likely to be adequate.

You'd have to have one hell of a leak on the bottom gates, coupled with standing about like a spare part and doing nothing about being stuck on the sill halfway out of the lock for that to happen. The struggle there would have been to get the top gate open should also have alerted those working the lock to the bottom end leakage, before even attempting to get the boat out into the pound. No real comparison at all with the speed at which things can get out of hand if you get hung up on the cill going downhill.

I don't understand any of that. There is no "danger" going uphill with a pound too low to get out of a lock, just the inconvenience of not being able to continue without running water down from the next pound above which ,if you're in luck will be a longish one, if not, and it's a short one, you'll probably be doing the same again at the next lock . . . and so on and so on to the next long pound.

Yes, it must be the explanation here, but what I am saying is if people could be educated into dropping this practice of keeping away from bottom gates when going downhill, then they're not going to hang up on the cill (not applicable to two shortish boats one behind the other of course). It occurs to me that maybe C&RT putting those stupid wood blocks between the top of the gate and the beam may also possibly be encouraging some people (particularly those with chained down fenders) to think that getting close up against the gates is not the right thing to do.

I have noticed that fenders won't float in midair . . . but what I'm saying is don't have chains underneath holding them down, then they can ride up harmlessly if caught on a bottom gate. Not having chains on the underside of stem fenders is something that worked well for the best part of two centuries.

Why mess about like that? Just don't have them chained down, as was invariably the case in working boat days. Completely irrelevant if the boat's far enough down the lock to the bottom gates