Tony1

At the risk of turning into your personal narrowboat-shopper (well ok, I already have), here is a almost brand new boat for just 60k: The thing that attracts me to this sort of purchase is that if you go down in price by only about 5k, the boats you are looking at are all at least 5 years old, with all the wear-and-tear that means on the boat systems. https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/pat-buckle-60-cruiser-stern/578249

Just another thought, in case you haven't yet considered it- how about a brand new 57 footer with a 'Sailaway plus extras' type of spec? The cheapest I could find was Lymm Marina Boat Sales, and they have a decent reputation from what I've seen here. The website is lmbs.co.uk I think. I went through their 'extras' price list and tried to price up everything I thought was a must-have for a new boat- the idea being to have at least the key domestic systems installed and working, and leaving only some interior decoration and wood treatment to be done, pipework to be boxed in, some free standing furniture to buy, and some finishing jobs- the biggest of which would be the coach painting, which I would be prepared to tackle myself, rather than hand over 5k or more for it to be done by a pro. From what I could see and based on my own requirements, I think you would be looking at paying a bit over 60k for a boat with all the important systems installed and running. It would be blacked and primed but not coach painted, it would have water tanks installed and plumbed in, all windows, doors and locks fitted, hot water and all the electrics running (including 3 batteries, 1000w inverter, and associated wiring), bathroom fully installed and working, diesel central heating plus radiators, a cooker and gas supply installed, basic kitchen units (or you might consider doing that yourself), fridge installed. Etc, etc.. You get the idea. So for maybe 5k more than the 40ft Beetle (which I saw advertised at 57k), you might get a 50-60ft boat with a basic but fully functional fitout. I don't know enough about the details of narrowboat systems to be confident in my guesstimate of 60k-ish, but its certainly worth a look if you are attracted to the idea of a new boat but don't have the 85-90k to pay for a fully-completed vessel. My own conclusion was that a 5-10 year old boat was probably still my best bet at around 50k, partly because I didnt want to pay the 60k for the bare functional boat and then end up spending another 20k on decorating, furnishing and finishing it,- but if my budget expands in the next 2 years I may well go back to the LMBS options when the time comes to purchase.

I looked at the larger Beetles because I quite fancied a brand new boat and thought my budget might just be made to stretch, and I emailed the company to ask if a minor layout change was possible on the 40ft boat (at extra cost). The reply was that no alterations are possible on these boats. Keeping the costs low was one of the reasons I think they mentioned. I want to do extended cruises off grid for a few weeks at a time, and the 40ft Beetle (with its small water tank, among other things) didn't look like it would do that job at all easily. The other problem for me is that it has no real comfortable 'lounging' area- just a compact L dinette next to the galley. I think I could live in a 40ft boat, but not one with the Beetle's layout. So on balance I had to forgo the big plus points of a shiny new boat (new engine, lots of stuff protected by long warranties, etc). My feeling is that a larger 5-8 year old boat might be found for around the price of a brand new beetle. So you'll get more living space, and all the expensive systems will still be in very good condition (plumbing, electrics, engine still with low hours, etc), plus the hull should still be 100% sound (although it can apparently deteriorate quite quickly). If they could knock out a 40ft Beetle with the existing on board systems but with my preferred interior layout at under £60k, I would be thinking very long and very hard over the next 2 years - but thankfully I'm spared that decision, because they just don't.

Apologies for kind of stating the obvious, but rather than ruling out any specific things like diesel or petrol outboards, it might be worth drawing up a sort of scoresheet for each of the important factors in your decision, bearing in mind how you want to use the boat- so at least you have all the deciding factors laid out on a single page in front of you. Eg petrol has the big problem of not being readily available in marinas and canalside locations, but there are plenty of boat owners who seem to run petrol generators quite often, if only for an hour or two. So its clearly not impossible to get hold of petrol (there are plenty of petrol stations on roads near to canals)- but its just another hassle factor that you don't have to face with diesel. On the plus side, petrol outboards are quieter, and they seem a lot cheaper than diesel- maybe half the price- and on a cruiser of 20 years old or more, the engine might need major (ie expensive) work not too long into your tenure- and its a tempting thought (for me) that £2.5k might solve that problem at a (four) stroke by getting you a newish 20hp petrol outboard that could be trouble-free for years. But there is another problem- where to store your 'reserve' petrol supply? The tanks on outboards are very ungenerous, and if you plan to do a fair bit of cruising you may need a petrol reserve tank (which will have to be carried to the boat from whatever garage you can find near the canal). If you go diesel, the fuel points are on the canal bank, so no carrying jerrycans of petrol along muddy towpaths- the only thing you lift is the fuel nozzle. On the outboard vs inboard question, the idea of being able to just lift up the whole engine to get rubbish off the prop (which you might have to do every day or two) seems very appealing compared to trying to reach down and under the back of the boat to clear the prop on an inboard engine. But I also read once here that outboards have been stolen when boats have been left unattended for a few days, although to be fair theft doesn't sound like a frequent/major problem. The other big negative with outboards pointed out above is that they don't give any kind of useful charge to the engine, meaning that (esp in Winter) you are relying mostly on a generator to charge your batteries. On the other hand, if you only move once every 10 days in Winter, you'll have to run your engine anyway to do some charging regardless of what boat you're on, so maybe a petrol outboard-plus-gennie 'combo' does'tn look so wasteful for that kind of cruising lifestyle. One of the frequent pieces of advice that been given here is to go look at some boats in person before making any kind of final decisions. It could just be that you fall in love with (and get a great deal on) a cruiser that has a petrol outboard, and its just possible that if there enough positive scores in other areas, the drawbacks of the petrol outboard might be outweighed. One thing I must do is stop reading this damn forum though. Every time I think I know what I want, I see a thread that starts me thinking again.... If they catch me on vulnerable day I can see myself ending up buying an ex-ship's lifeboat in bright orange with a pedalo to drive it.

Thanks Mr Snatcher, I do like the look of the Highbridge 32, and it does seem to have the key bases covered in terms of home comforts. What I really like is that they seem to start at 15k or under. At the moment my budget looks like it could stretch to about 45 or 50k for a really good/suitable used boat, so I'm now hoping I can afford to buy something with a bit more living space than a 30-ish feet cruiser. I even briefly considered going mad and stretching to a brand new viking 32cc at £54k- until I saw the size of the water tank, and the cost of replacing the canvas cockpit covers every few years, and the cost of running a generator more often to do the battery charging job that wont be done by the outboard motor, and a few other things. You never know of course, and if my budget becomes tighter than I'm expecting, I certainly think the Highbridge would be a better liveaboard option than any other 30 foot narrow beam cruiser I've seen so far. But because I want to be able to moor in more rural locations for a week or two, I'm thinking I would need another 50 gallons over the standard tank, so there would to be storage space for that.

Just wanted to say thanks again folks for giving your thoughts on this knotty problem. And those widebeams do look like great living spaces compared to the 7 footers. But stupidly, I hadn't really thought through the implications of my plan to take on ad hoc work post retirement, until I posted this question. So I hadn't fleshed out any thoughts on the important question of which rural areas a widebeam could cruise and still remain a 2 hour drive from my work in Merseyside/Lancashire (and I only want to stay near towns for as long as it takes to get supplies, fuel, or whatever). When I stopped to think about the work thing, I could see the benefits of having the T+M and Shropshire Union (among others) available to cruise with a narrowbeam, and I realised the drawback of being based mostly on the L+L if I had a widebeam. Dont get me wrong, there are some beautiful sections on the L+L (esp. around Skipton), but I feel it would be great to have more cruising options, because my 'operating radius' will not be that great. So given that the first 3-5 years of living aboard will be influenced by my need to stay within a shortish drive of Merseyside for work reasons, so I think I have to look first at narrowboats. Gareth's cunning idea of using a towed tender to carry a decent store of coal, diesel and water could be made to work, and would maximise the interior space of a 30ft cruiser. But it seems awfully vulnerable to theft, and anyway I'm still not convinced for comfort reasons. To fit a solid fuel stove, a decent inboard diesel engine, and improve the general layout and the other domestic 'services' to a good 'liveable' level could cost anywhere between 10,000 to 15,000, and then the narrow GRP cruisers stop looking like such a cost effective liveaboard option. I'll be giving up the ad hoc work within 3 to 5 years at most, in order to just do some proper cruising, and I think at that time I will look at a 35ft widebeam GRP cruiser, or maybe at 40-ish foot steel widebeam, if I'm finding the narrowboat a bit of a squeeze. What I dont see myself doing is trying to get a 60x12 foot boat around the canals- from what I've read here, it just looks like a bit too much hassle and stress for me personally. I just want to blend in and cruise around without causing any irritation or obstruction to other boaters. Proximity to any particular area wont matter once I've packed in even the part time work, so I can consider changing to a shortish widebeam for the space and comfort aspects, and still have a good choice of cruising areas. One of my more hare-brained future schemes will be to have my boat transported to the Irish waterways. They look absolutely stunning, and they appear to be significantly less populated than the English waterways seem to be, so for me they sound like a great place to spend a year or two cruising. But that's a different discussion entirely.

Cal, can I ask how you manage in terms of water supply? I'm guessing you don't liveaboard at the moment, but is the water tank size a nuisance at all? Also, I must apologise- I did not explain that for a few years after formal retirement I will probably be travelling to the Merseyside and Lancashire area every couple of weeks to do ad hoc work, and I can see that the Shropshire Union and T+M canals both have lots of lovely rural locations but are still within 90 mins drive of where I would need to be- and both are (I think) narrow canals. If I go wide beam, I will need to stay on the L+L, whereas if I'm narrow I can also use a few other canals within driving distance of my proposed 'ad hoc' work. So I'm starting to think narrowboat might be the best way, at least for the first few years- as you pointed out Mr Smelly, if the boat is half decent it will sell fairly easily anyway if I want to change things.

Thanks all for these very informative replies. The more I hear, the less positively I feel towards a 30ft narrow cruiser, so that at least is some progress in my thinking. But unexpectedly, this has got me thinking about wide beam GRP cruisers again. It is a very personal thing, this balance of the need for space against a desire for a wider cruising range. But hearing these ideas and opinions has helped me to better understand the real life issues I will have to face with each of the two boat options, and that really helps in making the right decision.

Thanks Cal, I have looked at the various canal network maps and thought long and hard about how restrictive the wide beam might be in reality (because wide beams do have an awful lot of 'space' appeal) and of course it's hard to know anything for sure until I get try it out for myself at the end of 2020. The other thing is that a 30-odd foot GRP widebeam might not be too expensive to get transported onto the southern part of the network, and thus increase the cruising areas. I read somewhere that in theory there is an overland journey of less than 20 miles between the north and southern wide beam canal systems, at their nearest points. So you would think a couple of thousand might be enough for that? On the other hand I did love the narrow canals I tried in the Midlands, and that wider cruising range is also very appealing. I am starting to suspect that my options might lie between a 50-odd ft narrow boat and a 30-odd ft widebeam GRP cruiser.

Thanks Zenataomm- I'm still planning and the truth is with the best part of 3 years still to go my feelings about narrow beams could change, or I could find out something I really don't like, so it's still possible I could go wide beam. But there seem to be so many lovely and quiet canals in the Midlands that I don't really see me changing on that. I holidayed on a narrow boat on the Coventry and the Ashby, and it would be a real shame to not be able to cruise those areas. I hadnt realised GRP was so demanding to keep clean and in good shape- that's sadly yet another negative tick, although at least not a very costly one, perhaps. I think I could live with the bobbing around bit, but as you say, a lot of them have petrol outboards, which come with a further details of issues to consider... GRP was always going to be a long shot for me (even given the little I know about matters nautical), but being so cheap it seemed at least worth looking at...

I'm one of the many people who are approaching retirement (early, but still 3 years away in my case), and who are considering spending at least a few years living on the inland waterways. In my case it would be as a continuous cruiser, mostly in the North and Midlands. It's become clear that there are many pitfalls and issues for the would-be liveaboard to consider, and from what I can see they have all been discussed heatedly and at some length on this forum: postal addresses, toilets, auxiliary transport, toilets, heating, toilets, blacking, toilets, engine maintenance, toilets. And toilets. I can only apologise if I'm repeating a recent question, but I haven't so far found a discussion on a question that I have been pondering, which is this: What are the compromises that you have to make to live aboard on a 30ft-ish GRP cruiser (something like a Viking 32cc), when compared to living aboard a 50-60ft narrowboat? I'm talking specifically about the narrow beam cruisers that will travel everywhere (almost), not the 12ft-wide Broads cruisers. The wide beam cruisers are lovely things, to be sure- so much more comfortable and spacious, but at the moment I wonder if a 12ft-ish beam might restrict my cruising a bit too much... The reason I'm even considering living with the compromises of a GRP cruiser instead of doing the decent, civilised thing a buying a 60ft narrowboat is that I'll probably be living on it alone, so space might be less of an issue than living with a partner. In the unlikely event that I am able to convince someone of the female persuasion to get on board with the idea (i.e. the idea of me primarily, and canal living secondarily), I do realise that all GRP-based bets are effectively off. Things like hair dryers, washing machines, big inverters, and lots of luxurious electricity- in short, all of the essentials of a decent civilised life for a woman- are simply not to be found on a 32ft cruiser (which I'm starting to get the feeling is about as comfortable as living in an upturned 747. After it's crashed into the side of a mountain.) But if, as is most likely, it is just me living aboard the good ship Plastic, I could accept a less than luxurious lifestyle. Up to a point: in an ideal world I would want to avoid some of the domestic lifestyle compromises made by Grizzly Adams. But I'm struggling to get an idea of just where the compromises are, and how serious they are. I would be particularly interested in hearing the experiences of people who have actually lived aboard cruisers like this for a few months or more, or who have garnered the opinions of GRP boat owners. There are a few things that spring immediately to mind- the water tanks are vanishingly small. Viking, for example, proudly boast of the immense 50 litre water capacity of their canal flagship (which from researching these forums would probably last no longer than a shower and a cup of tea). Plastic boats last essentially forever (or at least from the 70s till now, which as far as my children are concerned is actually longer than forever. They never need blacking, and when you do haul them out its cheaper because they are shorter and lighter. Transporting them by road is significantly cheaper (e.g. to Scotland or Ireland), and the CC license (and insurance) is cheaper for shorter boats. So the running costs seem to be a fair bit lower. But clearly so are the comfort levels. So they seem to be cheaper to buy and to run, but what, specifically, are the compromises compared to a narrowboat? And just as importantly, are there workarounds that make life more comfortable? I have a feeling that 30 feet of GRP may be a step too far even for me- in terms of compromises- but I wanted to at least ask the question, and see whether people who live aboard these boats will be kind enough to share their experiences.

If you google 'wall bed' you'll find some examples, including both the bare bedframes, and the ones that fold into big cupboards- and there are some on ebay. But what they seemed to have in common was they were too long, when laying flat. Most narrowboats boat wouldn't be wide enough to fit most of the ones I saw. I still like the fold-down idea, so I decided that my approach would be too shorten the wall bed by a few inches (there'd have to a bit of welding involved, but for me it was worth it). I think it will be a bit of a challenge to find a wall bed that is short enough to fit across a narrowboat when laying flat. But yes, I love the idea- personally I always feel that narrowboats are a restrictive living space, and if during the day a feeling of greater space can be created, then for me that is worth the hassle of taking five seconds to pull down a bed. I thought that instead of a permanent dinette thingy, I could perhaps have a foldaway table/chairs that could then be erected in the bed space as needed, during the day/evening. I was thinking of maybe managing with a boat of 50ft or less, but even if we go for 57ft, saving ten feet or so by not having a permanent bed seemed a good idea.

Thanks your Ladyship, that all sounds like good advice to me. I must admit, I hadn't expected 'the enemy within' (within the boating community, that is), but as you say, in very hard times some people will be driven to extremes, even at the cost of hurting others. Why should the canals be any different? Can I ask- are your doors a special one-off design, or do boat doors fit very flush as standard? I like the sound of doors that can't easily be jemmied. Or is it jimmied? One never knows. It seems that for a few extra quid (i.e. using portholes instead of windows, and flush steel doors) you can make your boat almost impossible for a regular thief to break into. Also- I had assumed a top quality padlock was the best door security option when leaving the boat alone- did you use some sort of high-security lock? I presume you can get them from specialist security firms? God, now I'm getting paranoid- I knew I shouldn't have started this thread! lol

I suspect this will be an issue for CCers more than those who live in marinas, but I'm interested in hearing of any issues/experiences regardless. It struck me that when CCing, it's possible that sometimes you'll end up arriving late in an unfamiliar location (due to an unforeseen problem maybe), and you'll have to moor up somewhere that you might not feel totally secure- and so I wondered whether CCers felt security was a big issue for them? Everyone talks about what a lovely environment the canals are, and of course they're right, but they do skirt or go through numerous towns and cities, and they can be very isolated, and in towns they are recognised hotspots for some types of crime- and I wondered what people felt about the risks from gangs of youths, thieves, or just drunks wandering home via the towpath, or whatever. I wondered also what measures people have taken to address any concerns they might have. For example, I thought of getting steel doors on our boat (if it doesn't have them to start with), and if we go for a sailaway, to have porthole windows instead of the larger ones, so that entry is impossible via the windows. But it's easy to get too paranoid about security, and from what little I've seen so far, there are few places where you will be really isolated- and even those are more rural anyway, and perhaps less risky. I've not read a single story about a boat that has been broken into with people on board asleep, or of any violence against liveaboards following a break-in, so I suspect there might not be too much of a problem to worry about.

Thanks Ange It's very interesting to see that some folks start off with a car then give it up, whilst others eventually turn to a car for things like trips into towns/places of interest, and lots of other don't have any motorised transport and still manage quite happily. Everything seems to depend on the individual's preference, as I should have expected- there is no 'best' overall solution. Personally I like cycling, and thought a couple of fold up bikes might be good to nip into local towns, but there is no way I'm paying 800 quid for any folding pushbike, Brompton or otherwise, unless they start gold-plating them. Earlier this year I bought an aluminium framed folder- a Raleigh boardwalk- for £370, and I reckon it'll last just as long, and it's a bit lighter too. Bromptons are brilliant things, no doubt about it, but you can get a bloody good folder for less than half the price. However, her indoors isn't so keen on biking, and would prefer to have motorised transport available if that's feasible. In an ideal world (which might not transpire) we'd be able to afford a motorhome too, for some European, Irish and Scottish touring, but I really wouldn't want to leave a motorhome parked up alone near a canal for more than a few days. But the idea of having a car to accompany the boat as we go CCing, plus an expensive motorhome parked up with a relative for winter tours of Europe, is just not a goer- I think the purchase costs and insurance etc would get silly. That's when I started thinking about using a motorbike as our day to day transport- it would fit on a platform on the bow, and come on and off via a ramp. But who knows- everything depends on what kind of cash is available, and we won't know for sure about the financial situation until nearer the time. Buts its really helpful to get ideas from folks who have so much experience.

Thanks everyone for the info- seems I might have been over-thinking the transport issues a bit, and that there are almost no scenarios that can't be covered by a trolley, a mountain bike, and a bus/train. I'll probably keep the car for a few months and see how we go, though. Carl, it's a bit worrying that you had three cars vandalised after parking them in places that were handy for the canal. It suggests to me that it might be better for me to find parking places a bit further away from the canal and accept walking further. I've always tried when leaving the car for a few days in the past to find residential streets with a few cars already around, but I guess that's not always possible.

Sue, one of the possible complications is that one or both of us will probably continue working (based on the boat) for a few years after we move aboard, which will involve long-distance travel once or twice a week for meetings etc. So we might need to be able to reach the nearest railway station fairly quickly, and fairly early in the morning. Since we can't guarantee being able to moor up every night within a 20 minute walk of a bus or railway station, I'm thinking that some sort of bike or moped might be needed as a minimum. Eventually that will change to much less demanding transport situation, maybe just involving trips into local towns etc.

One of the more knotty problems that I've been pondering, as we draw within a year or two of the time when we'll move aboard, is that of transport. We don't want to be based in a marina for more than a few months of the year (maybe Dec-Feb), because we think we'd enjoy our time more if we cruised around and explored the network as CC'ers. So we'll be moving on every couple of weeks, probably cruising for a few days, then stopping again for a while to explore the area etc. But the challenges are numerous. If we keep a car, how do I get back to it after a few days of cruising, when we might by then be 30 or more miles away from it? One idea would be to buy one of those little folding mopeds for a little over £1000, and use that to reach the car, stick the moped into the car boot, then drive the car to a safe location within a mile or two of the boat's new position. But does that really work for people in practice? And what about short trips? What if both of you just want to pop into a nearby town, that's a couple of miles from where you're moored up? I'm thinking a couple of fold-up bikes might do for that sort of thing, using the car for longer trips. But another option might be to do my bike test and use a 250cc bike as my main transport- that way its always with the boat, and won't need fetching. I could keep it on the bows perhaps, with a platform/ramp of some sort to get it off. That could carry both of us, and even the dog in a bike trailer if necessary. What do people do if they need to carry something heavy to the boat from a few miles away, e.g. if you a coal/fuel emergency? Would you cycle there with a trailer, do it on foot, or use a little moped of some sort. I'd be really interested in hearing how people get around the challenges of moving themselves and bulky items to and from the boat, whether to visit an interesting town 15 miles from the canal (with your dog), pick up a visiting family member from a railway station, collect bottled gas from a supplier five miles away, go shopping in a nearby village, or any other transport problems you've encountered really.

I must admit I am a bit baffled by people actually wanting an older engine that needs tlc to keep it running properly, but then lots of people would be baffled by my interest in military history, so I guess it's whatever floats your boat- or rather moves your boat in this case. I recently spent a few days on a hire boat with an old Lister engine, and tbh although the company were great to deal with, the racket from that engine was awful. It seemed much louder than any others we encountered (apart from some other hire boats), and I would watch enviously as some near-silent or gently puttering boats ghosted past us as we were still moored up in the early morning. I personally like the idea of minimal noise when cruising, as you'll disturb far fewer people if you cruise early, or late at night. One solo liveaboard guy on the Ashby actually stuck his head of his bow doors as we passed him in midafternoon (at not much more than tickover), and shouted at us to 'pipe down'! I know loads of people love those engines and good luck to them, but to me it sounded like a bunch of people knocking hammers against a block of hardwood. The other nice thing about a quiet engine is you can have a conversation on the rear deck without shouting, and of course its easier to hear when someone shouts something at you from the front of the boat. I think our approaches are very different- me and the missus want as many household comforts as we can reasonably manage to get (she regards a washing machine as essential, for example), and plentiful electricity etc. But each to their own, as they say

I guess if your lad is 21 now, it's possible he'll want to move out anyway within a few years (they have a habit of meeting young ladies and wanting to move in with them), so it might be wise to have half an eye on the longer term. And the long term might involve you re-adapting the boat for you and a partner, as a liveaboard couple. Although it might be simpler just to buy another boat when and if that happens, I guess. Interestingly, me and the missus are considering buying a liveaboard in a year or two, and we are thinking of the same sort of budget, i.e. around 40K. For that sort of money I've seen boats of around 5-7 years old, but there are usually some compromises, such as very limited electrical supply, having to run the engine to charge batteries or get hot water, low capacity water or fuel tanks, narrow fixed dinette-style sofas with straight high backs that are no good for lounging on (we all like a good lounge now and then), or whatever- there'll be something needs changing. So to make it truly comfortable for you, you may need to allow a few grand above the initial purchase price to spend on installing more batteries for when you go cruising, ripping out fixed sofas and buying your own, getting a decent generator, etc. One idea we had was to buy a 'sailaway with additions' (cheapest I've seen is lymm marina/lmbs). They sell 57 footers for 35K, which have all the basics except for a kitchen and stove, and then pay a fitter to put those things in, which we reckon could be done for about 5K. The exterior painting, flooring, curtains and other decoration you could do yourself, perhaps. You'd end up with a very basic and undecorated but nevertheless brand new boat for close to 40K, with lots of open space that would allow you more flexibility to divide the interior into suitable areas as needed. One idea we had was for the front of the boat to be a sleeping area but with a pull-down transverse bed (they stay made-up ready for use while upright, and can pull down in a couple of seconds). In your case that might allow for a fold-out table on the opposite wall that could perhaps act as a desk during the daytime/evenings. That 'bedsit' approach might allow the lad his own space for lots of the time, and having the bathroom and kitchen next to that area would mean he wouldn't have to pass by you in the lounge area too often. He might even prefer a sofa-bed instead of a wall bed, so he could entertain comfortably if he has a mate or two over. Your own bedsit/lounge area could be at the back of the boat, as you've suggested. If your area is lightly bigger, it can essentially be the 'common' lounge area for both of you, when he fancies spending a few hours in your company. And before going secondhand, take a look at Calcutt boats site- they seem to be selling a brand new model called the 'clipper' for a few grand over your budget, unless the price list is now out of date. And good luck!

Thanks for all the informative replies. Knowing that there is a 'last-moment' practice, I won't be quite so alarmed next time when someone seems to be heading straight for me with no apparent intention of giving way. The difference in this case was he actually didn't intend to move at the last moment, and he expressed annoyance that he had been forced to move at all- as it was he had to brush against the fringes of the overhanging branches. He was in a cruiser stern NB of about 50-60 feet, so I'm guessing he wouldn't have needed any more depth than anyone else. He may have thought I was going to move another foot at the last moment as some seem to do, but I knew from previous experience that another foot would be on the verge of grounding, whereas he had about 15 feet of clear water on his side, although with the overhanging branches. It was a case either of him going under the branches, or me probably going aground. My reasoning was he knew how shallow the canal was, could see my position, and would have been aware that I was close to grounding, but thought that was a risk he could take, rather than risk scratching his paintwork. I thought otherwise, and I had a very nervous few seconds with our bows pointing head-on at full speed, until he finally gave in a swerved. I think I had gained a somewhat rose-tinted view of boating folks from reading all sorts of things, and watching waterworld on TV, so it was a bit of shock to find there were a few selfish and aggressive boaters out there. I don't know why I was surprised though. One sees so many examples of utterly selfish and aggressive behaviour ojn the road that it has to expected to some extent on the waterways. People like that exist in every walk of life, so the canals could not possibly be totally excepted.

Hello all, and I have to firstly say thanks too- this site has an incredible amount of information on every conceivable aspect of canal boating, ranging from what length of boat is ideal, all the way to what colour dog is best suited to waterways life, and what brand of cheese lasts longest in narrowboat fridges. Reading these threads has given me so much helpful insight and direction on what we should be looking for in a boat, and I'm sure I won't be the only one who is very grateful for all the time and effort that goes into to posting replies on all the various topics. Me and t'missus are thinking about moving onto a NB in a year or two, depending on the timing of jobs/money/early retirement, and all the usual things. We tried our first NB holiday last week (yes, I was that dark handsome stranger on the Ashby canal), and among the many things that struck me, I noticed that there seemed to be a wide variation in how much room some boats would give each other when passing head-on. A few seemed almost reluctant to move aside, and seemed to want to hog the middle of the canal and force oncoming boats closer in to the bank, whilst others would politely give way as much as they could. 'Passing etiquette' is not something I've seen mentioned in any threads so far, so I just wondered whether it was me being new and missing something, or whether other people have noticed it. In one case a very polite guy moved his boat over to within a foot of the far bank when passing me, allowing me virtually the whole of the canal to flounder around in, and in most cases people would give way to each other about equally, but there were exceptions. In one memorable case a guy persisted in steering straight at me along the middle of the canal, although I was already only three feet from the right bank, and at risk of running aground (as I'd done several times that afternoon when giving way), whilst he had at least fifteen feet clear on his side, and was only at risk of running into some overhanging bushes. I felt like an American teenager 'playing chicken' with an oncoming car, and his grim determination to avoid disturbing his hairdo in the overhanging bushes came very close to causing a collision (since I had nowhere to go but aground), but he steered away at the last moment and said something vaguely rude about me cutting it too fine as he went past. Is this a common thing? Is it like a test of nerve, or an ego thing? Do some people play chicken when passing each other, or did I just encounter the one selfish git on the whole system? I will say that all of the hire boaters gave me a politely wide berth when passing, but that was probably because they were struggling not to hit every object in sight anyway, as I was.

Hi there My gf and I are looking at some ideas for improving the bed situation on a narrowboat- we want to live aboard in another year or two. Like you we found the standard 4ft bed to be too narrow, but I also found that if we both rolled over towards the port side, the resulting tilt of the boat made for a pretty poor night's sleep. Of course one can get used to most things after enough time with them, but one idea she had was to install a fold-up wall bed transversely, across the boat. There are plenty of firms making these things, including some that fit inside wooden cupboards when not in use, and king size ones. This is one example I found, but a google search on 'wall beds' will show loads more: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wall-bed-Murphy-bed-Pull-out-bed-Foldaway-bed-Hidden-bed-All-sizes-30-Off-/140718252604?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Bed_Accessories&var=&hash=item20c376223c#ht_2254wt_699 The great thing seems to be that they remain fully made up, and that they simply pull down very quickly and with a very light effort, and are fully ready to use in a couple of seconds, and you can use any mattress you want. There's no placing of boards, fitting of mattresses, or tucking in of sheets etc. There is a problem though- most of the ones I saw project over 2 metres from the wall when pulled down, and I don't think there is enough internal width for that in a narrowboat. But all may not be lost- some of them appear to be so constructed that you could reduce the length by cutting and welding. You'll spoil the look of it a bit, but compared to the benefit of a good night's sleep, it seems a small price to pay, if indeed it can be done. Failing that, I'd be prepared to look at bolting a steel bed frame onto heavy-duty folding brackets attached to the wall. Professional advice would be needed, but it has to be doable. We are a little put off by the limited feeling of space we get in narrowboats, so for us another big advantage is that folding away the bed will effectively extend the lounge space, because in our case the bedroom and lounge will in effect be a single open plan space, and the sleeping/bed area will be separated from the adjoining lounge not by a bulkhead, but maybe using a movable divider or a privacy curtain. During the daytime the curtain would be pulled clear and the feeling of open space inside the boat would thus be increased, but the bed would still be available at a moment's notice. At the moment these are not firm decisions but just ideas for consideration, although the wall bed does look like a winner to me. I might even think about trying to mount it so that it is truly horizontal, taking into account the general downward slope of the boat from bow to stern, so that there is no slope. Perhaps wooden chocks could even be used under one side of the frame to raise it slightly and get it back to horizontal, who knows? Anyway, just thought it might be worth sharing some thoughts we've had- and good luck with your chosen solution. Tony