Tony1

Good point Alan, thanks, and I hope Kez pays attention to that. My proposition to my daughter and her partner will not involve any negative financial impact, at least not as things stand. Venetian marina is a lovely place, but its Cheshire, and even leisure moorings are expensive there (by northern standards). I dread to think what they would charge for residential moorings. Kez, in terms of buying a boat, dont restrict yourself to the Northwest, it is too limiting. Look at the website Apolloduck , you will see more choice and some better prices. If you have to buy a boat down south and then move it up to Shropshire, that could be a lot better in the long term than buying a boat that you dont really like because there are so few options locally. Although, at this time of year some canals close for maintenance, so the journey north has to be checked out for that issue. In terms of what boat will suit your needs, maybe you could start a new thread to ask about that. It's probably a whole universe of questions in itself.

I'm happy to help, and I will confess partly from the selfish motivation that if I am ever in a real jam with a massive boat problem, I will need the people here who have the knowledge and experience to guide me towards a solution. I posted a question on the canaline owners facebook group and didnt get answer until 12 months later. This is where its at kids. Lets keep it going. Oh dear, this is awkward. They said they'd tell you in advance that you'd been fired, and that I was the new Emperor of Mods. They used the word Emperor specifically. I'm sorry you had to find out this way. Seal team 6 will be in touch shortly to proffer your resignation papers. Best not make a fuss old chap.

Kez, you must bear in mind that it will be a LOT cheaper (and I mean a lot) to moor your boat in a marina if you do not officially declare that it is your place of residence. Also it will be much, much easier to find a place, and quicker too. There are lots of boaters who've been living aboard full time on this kind of unofficial basis for years, and most marinas (but not all, bear that in mind) will turn a blind eye to boaters who live on their boats almost all of the time, as long as you dont cause them any headaches. For the marina, what matters is that you are not officially living on your boat, and the marina is not your home address. You have the status of a leisure boater, no matter how many years you have clearly been living on your boat 100 yards from the marina office. If you really do have to use a marina as your permanent and official residential address, it is going to be a lot more expensive. I would look harder at the idea of friends of family members. Is it possible to offer a friend or family member a financial reward to let you use their address, if only for the dvla and insurance? The cost of a residential mooring is so high in some places that you could probably afford to pay a friend £500 a year (probably twice that, really)- and you would still be saving money compared to an official residential mooring.

Until the last year or two I believe that DVLA would accept fake/proxy addresses that were supplied to boaters by a firm called Expost (and possibly others). This service was invaluable to many full time vanlifers and boaters, who did not have a true home address that they could offer to DVLA. A boating friend I met last year had been using Expost for about 18 months. As a potential user myself, I was keenly interested in how the user experience worked out for him, and told me he used it for his DVLA and driving license address. And I think his banking as well. But one day a snag occurred. His road tax had run out a few days earlier without him realising, and his nearly new Mercedes estate was towed away from the the spot where he'd left it (and it cost him a good few bob to get it released). But more of a headache was that in his communications with DVLA about this issue, it transpired somehow that his Expost address was no longer acceptable to them. His solution was to to ask his daughter if he could use her address, but for the DVLA only (I think the other services were still OK with it). Its a pretty big ask, for someone to let you use their address - it could go wrong in a number of ways that could be unpleasant for the person living at the real address. But if, as expected, I buy a motorhome in about 5 years from now, in order to travel southern Europe during the winters, I will be in exactly the same position myself. I can understand why the businesses and the official bodies are wary about the use of proxy addresses. But with houses increasingly unaffordable for young people, and many more young and old people being forced into some form of van or boat as accommodation, one would think that there would be a formally recognised way of dealing with the 'no fixed address' situation. They do that for the traveller community, right? So the facility does exist within our banks and official bodies to deal with people living a mobile lifestyle.

Is it possible that CRT might have a detailed discussion with the relevant govt departments, and convince them that it is simply impossible to keep every canal fully maintained for navigation with their current finances? Could they persuade the govt to agree on a 'temporary' closure plan for certain lock flights etc, on the basis that at least the structures will get no worse while mothballed? And as long as the channels and banks were maintained, then in future they will be ready to be navigated again, once the locks are reopened. And if it does need an Act of Parliament even for a temporary mothballing of canals, that would not be an impediment if the govt agreed on the plan and supported it. The govt might look favourably on such a plan as a way of preserving some lock flights against further damage- especially if continued public access and usage of the towpaths was guaranteed. The reason I keep wondering about this is because I am increasingly getting a feeling that it is just not going to be possible to properly maintain all the waterways as the budget gets tighter. Something has to give, right? I read a story a few weeks ago about Pennine Cruises stopping the hire of boats until future notice, because their customers' cruises were being disrupted so often. I appreciate CRT giving the statement about commitment to boaters, but if its a plan that they dont have the money to deliver on, then where will things end up?

One of the ways to close the gap (that has been discussed here before) is to reduce the number of miles of 'operational' waterways, based on accepting that it is no longer possible to properly maintain the full network with the budget they have, no matter how efficient they get. They might identify canals that are less often used by boaters, but have a higher than average cost (per mile or overall?) to maintain. So maybe those with large numbers of locks or other structures needing maintenance. Another target criteria might be if a given canal has a navigable alternative route? I would be amazed if there wasn't at least an outline plan or paper somewhere, looking at canal closures as a future strategy. The general public are their priority, not boaters. So they just need the waterways to look nice, have mostly walkable towpaths, and be deep enough for kayaks etc. I suppose their approach would be to close lock flights on the target waterways, perhaps until funding is available again in the future. Boats could still cruise up and down within certain stretches, but would not be able to navigate onto the wider network, which itself would be a skeleton version of what it is now. The major holiday routes, four counties and other rings would probably be left open, but the HNC might be vulnerable perhaps. I guess it would be the canal equivalent of the Beeching report that closed lots of railways. But the waterways will look completely different in 20 years anyway. With the expected disappearance of IC engines (and presumably IC engined generators), the focus might be on much smaller and lighter boats- so I would expect lots of 25-35 foot GRPs with electric motors, covered in solar panels. Things like the Wilderness trailerable boats might be more popular, enabling the owners to easily move their boats from one navigable stretch to another. During the winters, without enough solar to drive even a small boat, it is difficult to see who if anyone will ever move their boats, because there is zero chance that CRT will have the money or the resources to put a charging network in place in the next two decades. If they dont make an exception to allow IC driven canal boats, I dont see how the current number of big steel narrowboats can continue to cruise the canals in 25 years from now, and my worry is that at some point the entire market will collapse and they will effectively become scrap, perhaps apart from a few hundred historic showboats.

I would suggest that once you have a few potential names in mind, ask here and maybe on facebook, to see if anyone has experience of dealing with them. You can ask people to PM you with replies, so that you dont get into the business of publicly naming and shaming a company or tradesperson. You'll already know that there are many canal 'professionals' who are little more than inept cowboys, and the world of electrics is certainly no exception. MtB's suggestion seems sensible to me too - obviously you can ask the potential installers, and see how soon they could attend to do the install if the job is agreed- but the odds are that it will be at least a week or two before they can attend, and if they have to wait for batteries from overseas suppliers, it could be even longer. In case there are new BSS rules coming in the next few years about lithiums, I would ask for a clear invoice/documentation of the install. It seems that one of the potential new requirements might be that lithiums should be installed by a qualified professional (and we have discussed what that really means, and what limited value it has) - some evidence of the install might come in handy. What this forum can certainly do is advise you on what size battery you might need, if you can detail your cruising/mooring patterns (how many hours cruising per week etc), whether you have hookup, what your engine is, how big the alternator(s) are, whether they have poly V belts, whether you have solar, how much power you use each day, what your budget is for the whole thing, etc etc. With the information we can give you, you can at least discuss it with a professional knowing a bit about what you really need, and what your options are. If you have some basic electrical knowledge, I would suggest that there might be a fairly simple and quick 'bargain basement' option, which is 1. A Fogstar battery of say 400-600Ah at maybe £800-1000 (delivery time on my friend's was 6 weeks, another last year was 3 months, but they might well have what you need on the shelf) 2. A 50 amp Victron DC to DC charger at £250-300, 3. All the required battery cable, lugs, fuses, etc. . Lithiums are becoming more popular, and there may be a local boater who has a B2B lithium setup already and has some understanding of these installs, who might be willing to advise you, or least supervise you doing the job. That would be a bit more risky, with no documentation or invoice, but it would be very cheap and get the job done fast. But if you are having serious and urgent power issues now, my personal choice would be Mike's suggestion, to get a few cheap lead acids as an interim, and plan the lithium install properly, rather than rush it. ETA - obviously dont just just install new lead acids without first checking that the charging system works properly and its the batteries that are the problem, or the new ones will be damaged in turn.

Bit of a long shot, but the marina (or other premises in the area) might have a security camera near the entrance or covering a gate to the towpath, and you might get enough of a sight of passing boats to identify them. If the theft was at night, there will be hardly any boats moving, so any boat identified moving in that area at night will be a major suspect. I said this above, but dog walkers from the marina will probably have passed the scene several times, and they will be aware of something unusual like a boat breasted up on yours, unless it was done in the middle of the night. I would inquire at the marina, and ask if you can put a notice up in their office asking for info. The trick is to offer the police enough info or evidence that you can spark them into investigating properly, which ordinarily they wont have the resources to do. These scum need catching asap.

So sorry to hear of your awful experience. Ripping all that stuff out would have taken a while, and there would probably have been a number of regular dog walkers, cyclists etc passing the boat during the theft. I wonder if it would be worth putting up some notices along the towpath, asking if anyone saw anything? Someone might even remember a boat name, especially as its not usual to have boats breasted up together outside a marina, They might have noticed the boat name, a paint colour pattern, or the guys appearance. Usually these scumbags give off a nasty vibe, and that might jog people's memories. What I find especially dispiriting about it is that it drives home the point that when a boater is doing the theft, your boat is not safe anywhere. I'm very careful near towns, but I do tend to get a bit lackadaisical when I'm out in more rural areas, with maybe just villages nearby. But a boater could be travelling through all these rural places, so you are not safe anywhere. The really angering thing is that the thieves are gaining just a couple of hundred quid (if they are stealing to sell the used stove plus used flue and chimney gear), but their small gain is forcing you to raise maybe £1000 or more to buy and fit the replacement stove and gear needed. On a related note, I keep half a dozen bags of coal on the roof during the winter months, and a week or so ago I was stood near the (open) stern door doing some minor task or other,. when I noticed a youngish chap coming down the towpath. I'm sure he was a boater- there were those little signs. Something about his demeanour got my attention, and I watched him pass. His head swivelled towards the coal on my roof as he passed, and at the same moment I heard him make a kind of 'hmmm' noise, as you do when you see something very interesting or appealing. I could only conclude that he fancied nicking some coal.

I think there is something about the boating life that is inherently debilitating to the human condition. Before I had a boat I was handsome, smartly dressed, intelligent, and charming - and as well-scrubbed as any normal civilian. But the last four years have reduced me to a shambling, unwashed, dull-witted zombie, whose only thoughts are concerned with battery charge, mud, and how far it is to Tesco. At least on the Thames you have civilised people around you. Here I am surrounded by brutish thugs, and elderly couples who I sense would cut my throat for a bag of coal. Or just if I annoy them. Desperate times.

Honestly. You two should get a room. In polite boating circles bragging about the size of your alternator is considered almost as bad as solar bragging. But not as bad as lithium bragging. Dont ask me how I know 🤣

Tbh I frequently spit on the 45 amp alternators myself 🤣 They are contemptible creatures, and if I ever change boats one of the absolute must-have criteria will be an engine that can drive a big alternator with no issues. But back in 2020 I didn't even know what an amp was. Alas, I was so young and impressionable and good-looking...

I can understand a reluctance to mess about with the starter charging setup that works very well, but if you are effectively going off grid, then some of my points above are more valid. I cant help thinking that at some point in the future your thoughts might turn to getting more charge from that starter alternator, perhaps involving a B2B or similar. But it depends - and how often you go cruising is a big factor. If you only cruise once every two weeks for say 3 hours, then yes, there's not a great deal to be gained from beefing up the engine charging, and its less attractive if there's a big cost involved in doing it. But if you cruise once per week for say 5 hours, that's a decent amount of potential power that you could be collecting into a bank of lithiums - and lithiums will store that power until you need it. As a sort of baseline, I think its sensible to assume each 70 amp alternator will be able to give about 35 amps on a steady basis at engine tickover, and maybe 40-45 amps if you're cruising (and thus revving up a bit). If the once-per-week cruising scenario above is nearer the mark, then each week your domestic alternator (using a victron B2B) will be delivering 40 amps of charge for 5 hours. So maybe 200Ah over the week's cruising, which is well over a day's electricity usage, even in winter. But if you also set up the starter alternator in the same way, there's another 200Ah you could be collecting on each cruise. So then you'd be getting 2 or 3 days' power from a single weekly cruise. Hence my suggestion about harnessing that potential charge from the starter alternator using a second B2B. Bear in mind that the starter battery isnt damaged by being part of a lithium/B2B charging setup. It still gets a good charge during a cruise. I've had the same starter battery since I got the boat in 2020. Its been connected to a B2B and charging my lithiums for three and half years, and it still seems to be in very good shape. Also bear mind, you can configure the B2Bs so that they stop taking charge when the starter battery drops below a given voltage, so you need never drain the starter too much. I'm not suggesting there is a big cost saving in putting the starter alternator to use in charging the domestic bank via a B2B, but if you cruise once per week the extra charge gained will save perhaps a few hours of genny running, I would guess. Its 200Ah of effectively free power each week you could be gaining each week (if you do a cruise), and living off grid that's not to be sniffed at. I wonder if it makes sense to install one B2B on the domestic alternator to start with (as has been suggested), and maybe consider a second B2B as a future upgrade.

As DMR says there are multiple options for setting up B2B systems, and the best for you depends on your circumstances and budget. I must apologise - because I am off grid 24/7, I mistakenly tend to assume that everyone needs the same as me- which is most powerful and fastest engine charging setup you can arrange with the main components you have. But your needs are very different, so you can ignore most of my suggestions, apart from checking that the alternator(s) stays cool when the new charging setup is installed. But you say you use a generator to do the charging when moored? I must have missed that in the posts. I was assuming you'd be doing some engine charging when moored. So what you want to do is to make better use of the engine charging capability, and at the same time to do a lithium install? I was concentrating on maximising the engine charging and B2Bs, but the engine will probably play a fairly small part in the overall picture really, which is something I was not clear about. You have a mains hookup in the marina during winter, and your panels do the bulk of charging in summer. When moored off grid in winter you have the genny to charge (which I'm assuming will be more efficient than the engine, so it will be the default choice). So all you want is to improve the engine charging when cruising? A 70 amp alternator will do that as Peter suggests, with a single B2B. But I dont think adding a B2B is going to make a vast difference to what you have now. You'll be able to charge at a steady 35-40 amps when cruising, and you're probably not too far off that now, doing say a 5 or 6 hour cruise and charging the lead acids. I think someone mentioned this above and I mentally glossed over it- but looking at what you need, and the fact that you're on hookup a lot of the time, and that you have a big solar array, I'm not sure I'd be thinking about lithiums. For me, that is the first question to ask - what clear benefits will lithiums offer you, given your current circumstances, and is it worth the cost? It partly depends how much time you spend cruising, and how many nights per month are you moored off grid during the winter? Its off grid where lithiums really seem to perform well.

The deal doesnt look that great at the moment really. My impression is that its the older conversion - the one that is not dual fuel. The guy selling used to do a bit of work on car engines so he's not a novice, and I raised my queries about running on petrol a few times. I think if it was possible to run this genny on petrol he would probably know that, and he had a few chances to mention it. My impression was that some change to the carb might be needed. but there were original parts with it to make it easy to change back to petrol. On the plus side, with it having previously run on LPG, there wont be any carb gumming issues. But I need to be very clear on what is needed to change it back to petrol, and I didnt feel like he was 100% clear about that. Anything that incurs more cost probably takes this genny out of play for me personally. Its a real shame, I bet its a cracking machine and not much needed to change it over, but I certainly cant do carb work myself.

I think the Sterling BB1230 (30 amp) units are ok, but I had problems with the BB1260 (60 amp) units. As was said, the 60 amps refers to input current, and 10 amps is wasted in heat, so you actually get about 50amps from them in theory. In practice I got a bit less than that. But the biggest problem I had was that after 15 minutes of running, the unit would get quite hot and would reduce its output to less than 30 amps. After about 15 minutes of that it would switch back up to maybe 47 amps. This continued throughout the charge, meaning an average of maybe 35-40 amps over a two hour charge. I could not strongly recommend that unit, based on my own personal experience with two of them. That said, I used mine about 3 years ago and they've updated the 60 amp version since then, so I cant comment on the recent versions. They may have addressed the problems I saw. But the big plus with the victron unit is you can set the charging current precisely to match what your alternator can put out. With the Sterlings you have two options- full power at about 47-48 amps, and half power at about 25-27 amps.

I would advise the OP to do some research on customer service reviews before buying anything from Renogy. I'm not saying they're bad because I dont know for sure, but I've heard a few things that would make me double check before taking the plunge.

Its a widebeam so you'll have a decent sized engine- so fitting a big alternator shouldn't be a problem. But if you want to avoid the cost of a big alternator upgrade plus a controller like the wakespeed, then the B2Bs are probably the next best option, and the setup is simple enough that you could do it yourself. As DMR says, if they are bog standard 70amp alternators you'll be lucky if you get more than a steady 40-45 amps from them without them getting a bit hot (and as you'll know, lithiums will suck out a steady current throughout the charge). So you'll want to use both of them to get twice the charge, and thus run the engine for half the time. My 70 amp starter alternator got hot if it gave out more than 35 amps continuously, but you can squeeze out maybe another 5 or 10 amps of current if you rev up to say 1300rpm, as they will cool a bit better. The simplest method is probably to run both alternators to the starter lead acid battery, and then run in parallel from the starter battery to the B2Bs, and on to the batteries, with fuses etc. I tried that approach initially myself, but I ran into a problem. My alternators run at slightly different voltages, and when I ran them in parallel to a single lead acid battery (and then to the B2Bs), one of them produced less current than the other. The total current looked good, but one alternator was working harder and getting hotter. In the end I had to run each alternator into its own lead acid battery, and then into a B2B. When I did that, both alternators ran fine and produced the required current. It probably wont happen with yours as they are probably identical units, but its a simple fall back plan if you find the same issue as me. Once you've got them connected, I would use your clamp-meter to check the current output form each alternator is roughly the same, and of course use an infrared thermometer to monitor the temperature of each one every few minutes as you run them. They can heat up pretty quickly so keep a close eye on the temps. The great thing about those new victon units is you can set the charging current to within 0.1 amp. So you can set them to say 35 amps to start with and run the engine for about 15 minutes, checking that both alternators are giving the right amount of current, and both are staying around normal operating temp (which you can measure at the very start with the current setup, before you install anything). If they are both staying cool after 15 mins, you can up the charging current by say 5 amps and run for maybe 15 minutes, checking the temps (on the hottest part of the unit) every few minutes. With luck they'll both run cool enough at 40 amps, and you'll have a decent 80 amp charge rate. For research purposes, you can increase the current again by 5 amps and try another 15 minute run, but you'll probably find they start to get a bit hotter than normal after a few minutes. But if they stay cool enough, then great- confirm its ok by running for another half hour or so (checking the temp every 5 mins), and you can then charge at 90 amps instead. You can keep on increasing the current like that, and eventually you'll identify a level of charging current at which they start to get uncomfortably hot, and you can back off a bit and make smaller adjustments until you find the sweet spot where you maximise the charging current but dont heat up the alternators. (Its probably worth backing off a bit from the sweet spot, as a safety measure) If you rev up to 1300 rpm and repeat the test, you'll find the alternators can give out more charge before they get too hot. So if you are moored up and doing a static charge, you'll have the option of revving up, and increasing the charging current to the correct level, and charging even faster. You might consider seasonal adjustments to the charging current in summer to allow for the warmer air temps, but tbh I dont bother. Exactly how hot is too hot is a matter for debate. My alternators ran at 55 degrees or so originally, so I decided to keep them below 90 degrees as an operating limit. Some people will tell you they are ok running at 120 degrees, but thats well over twice their original operating temp, so I was a bit more conservative. Jen (she who wears Wellingtons) added a device (some kind of thermostat switch?) to her friends alternator, and that temporarily switches off the B2B (using its BMS input) when the alternator goes above a set temp, and switches it back on when its cools down a bit. Its something I've thought about, I must admit.

I think its all pretty kosher - he said he's got some assorted stuff from an older boater who was on the permanent mooring next to him. The older guy had to leave his boat about a year ago apparently for medical reasons, and this guy I met is trying to sell off his gear for him. There's always a risk with buying second hand stuff, but he is residential locally (I wont say where)- so if its a lemon he knows I know where he lives! Not that I'm the scary type, but you know.

Thanks Jon, thats very encouraging. I'll insist on a demo before handing over any cash, so I should see it running on petrol.

Thanks - and the genny I'm thinking of has already been converted. But I would be running it on petrol most of the time, so I'd need to be sure it will do that with no further alterations or messing about. Thanks Alan, I've had a look but cant yet see a definitive answer on this, hopefully someone here will know the truth of the matter. I dont want to spend £500 on a 2 year old genny thats been sat unused for 8 months and might also need further work on the carb to make it usable for petrol. The guy selling it doesnt own it, and even he wasnt 100% sure about whether the carb needed any alterations to run on petrol.

I think the genny on offer is an EU20, so its actually 1.6kw and would cost £500, compared to the hyundai which costs £400 brand new, and puts out 2.2kw peak. I'm still tempted to buy the honda whilst I have the chance, and stash it somewhere until next winter though. But on the issue of gas, I dont have space for a dedicated bottle for the genny, so on a daily basis I'd be hoiking my spare bottle out of the stern locker (and it takes a bit of hoiking, I can tell you), and then hoiking it onto the towpath in sometimes very dubious (muddy and wet) conditions. Thats a lot of hoiking, although if my petrol ran out it would be a handy fall back, as the genny has been converted to run on gas. So can I check something- if an EU20 has been converted to gas, can you absolutely definitely, definitely run it on petrol with no messing about or alterations? If I get the conversion kit regulator thing with it, and all for £500, thats not so bad. To be honest, as the owner of a puny canaline 38 that cant run a big alternator, I would be absolutely ecstatic to have the 42 or the beta 43 instead. (I can only hope my engine isn't listening right now. Or rather, watching. But anyway) Re the overnight marina costs thing, I'm sure you're right, and indeed why not do that, and have the odd night in a marina with a long, hot civilian type shower? But that said, boat showers aren't bad, its more the water usage issue. Unless its mine which has the elbow room of a small coffin, and is about four and a half feet high. I think they converted mine from a medieval torture device.

I gave this a lot of thought back in 2021, and Ed Shiers strongly advised me to go down the route of an alternator upgrade and a controller. But two snags cropped up. One was that the canaline 38 cant drive a properly powerful alternator unless it has a crank upgrade, and the kit alone was a several hundred quid. Ed was so keen to see me get the best possible solution that he drastically cut his price to supply and fit the kit, to the point that he would have been doing most of the labour effectively for free. That's how ethical and fair the guy is. But by the time I consulted him it was a bit too late, and I had already invested over £800 in a setup involving three B2Bs, and I would've lost loads of cash in trying to sell all that stuff. Plus by then I had upgraded to 1400 watts of panels, so the whole engine charging issue had become a problem for only 3 months of the year. If only I'd had the sense to contact him at the start, I would have identified the best solution up front, and gotten myself a really good quality160 or 180 amp alternator, and thus resolved the whole thing in a much more elegant and efficient way. Once you can charge lithium batteries at a steady 150 amps or more, you've cracked it really. Maybe on my next boat...

I hadn't considered that events might unfold in that particular order David. But now you mention it, it is without doubt the more hazardous of the two scenarios! 🤣

Well thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts, ideas, concerns and general advice on this subject. After hearing all of these real-life experiences and gaining a wide variety of info, I have a much better feel for whether or not a genny is a good idea for me personally (given its various hassle factors)- and for me, the answer is yes. I wont get one right now, as I might have a couple of major expenses approaching. But if its not this winter, It will certainly be in time for next.