IanD
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Posts posted by IanD
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Just now, DShK said:
Yes, this is my thinking exactly. Sterling are pushing against me, and have no offered to warranty them. Just telling me "it's normal". They've said they will take a look at them for me, but I'm not hopeful that will result in a favourable outcome if they come at it from a "that's normal" angle from the start.
Interesting, I was not aware I could control the B2B like that. I was going to use a big relay, but if I can turn it off from the shunt, perfect!
Passive only, and it seems useless. Can't get to the cells to balance - batteries are sealed. I did suggest to sterling they could top balance them for me.
The problem is that to top balance you either need active balancing which can move substantial currents around between cells, or to be able to disconnect the series cells and connect them all in parallel and have them sit until they eventually equalise -- which can take a long time, several days or even weeks.
If they're sealed with an internal BMS with passive balancing there's no way to do either of these, so Sterling can't do anything to fix this.
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13 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:
I designed and fitted wheel steering to Innisfree, a 60' cruiser stern with semi-trad type of side 'wings, I later replaced the wheel with a own desigm crank handle which turned out to be ideal for me, 2.5 turns lock to lock so the right feel and no need for a helm indicator, combined with a quick folding hood for bridges and tunnels it provided dry cruising in the rain and shade in the sun, hand on heart I couldn't improve it.
With imagination and patience, wheel (or rather 'crank') steering is very practical, it is unusual so not to most people's taste.
If I was younger and in good health my next narrowboat would be electric steerable pods at each end complete with special cruiser sterns, no more winding and total control of boat position in windy weather (crabbing sideways into wind!)
You could make it reversible and double-ended like some of the old day boats (but steered from the middle?), no need to wind ever again 🙂
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2 minutes ago, DShK said:
3.75V, it can be changed in the Daly with the password. My concern is going lower than this, the imbalance means the other cells are not charged. With a 0.3V+ imbalance, to me it looks like they could be nowhere near fully charged if max charge is set to something more sensible like 3.65V.
Your problem is cell imbalance, there's no way you should have one cell at 3.75V and others at 3.45V. You need to top balance the cells somehow to stop this -- do your batteries have active balancing?
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5 minutes ago, Tony1 said:
I always have an emergency rope cutter tool in my back pocket on a day when I'm going to be doing locks. The real question is whether I'd have the presence of mind to remember it was there, if the worst actually happened.
I wish I'd had one a few years back, going up a staircase lock a CRT workman advised my daughter's BF (it was his first canal holiday) to drop two turns of centreline rope round the bollard instead of one (as he had been doing) so he wouldn't need to pull on the rope so hard. As the boat rose above the bollard the rope tightened and locked one turn over the other, boat started to tilt -- I was at the other end of the second lock and couldn't get there fast enough, by the time I did it was locked solid -- both paddles were open so I couldn't drop them fast enough. Luckily the workman saw what was happening and ran over and cut the rope with his saw (they were putting up new railings), boat rocked violently from side to side, cue crashing noises and swearing from inside. We lost a bottle of gin *and* a bottle of chilli sauce, and a mixture of both these and broken glass is good for nothing... 😞
Apart from wishing I had a rope cutter in my pocket, this also shows that just because somebody works for CRT doesn't necessarily mean they know what they're talking about when giving advice to boaters... 😉
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34 minutes ago, blackrose said:
I'm not on the northern canals 😉 but if I ever get up North on my boat and I'm in those particular locks then I might refuse the offer of help and stay on the bank. However, I can't help thinking that I've still got more control of my boat at the helm.
It's a six of one/half a dozen of the other problem. If you stay on the boat you have more control of it and are less likely to get into trouble at either end of the lock -- but if something does go wrong unexpectedly you can't get to the paddles quickly if whoever is on the bank doesn't...
16 minutes ago, David Mack said:Unhook from the bollard or tee stud, coil up and store on the cabin roof or rear slide, where it will be to hand when next needed.
That's certainly what trad boaters with no railing did. So long as the rope is secure on the hooks so it can't fall or get kicked over the stern I don't see a problem with this solution on a cruiser stern rail, which trads don't have.
Especially for less experienced boaters who when in a hurry might well forgot that the rope isn't attached to the boat with your "trad" solution, and throw the whole thing off the boat. No it wasn't me, but I did find it funny... 🙂
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4 minutes ago, blackrose said:
I do. I'd rather be at the helm then on the bank. But my boat is only 57ft long so there's no need for the bow or stern to be anywhere near the gates.
Except on some Northern canals where that's the maximum length or close to it... 😉
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38 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:
Just back from a cruise and i'm sorry to say i let a good handful of boats overtake us.
Let a hire boat by on the approach to Brownsover, who we then found and passed trying to stop at the waterpoint there (we assume) and then once through the bridge we had to let him by again (he promised he wasn't stopping again) 🙄
Next day we saw a cruiser overtake a boat behind us, so decided we'd let it by as well, combined with a bit of wind we then grounded as he went by, no good deed goes unpunished
Same principle as on the road -- no point overtaking a dawdler if you know you're going to be stopping or turning off soon...
But that's down to the boat behind, it still doesn't give the dawdler reason to block them from overtaking safely where space permits. Also the same principle as on the road... 😉
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21 minutes ago, Tacet said:
Drawing the paddles of the next higher lock is about the best hope. But it is not a great solution as it raises the level of the pound but not necessarily of the lock. With the boat grounded on the cill and a tight fit widthways, there is not much of a passage to replenish the water being lost from the lock.
It's a horrible situation.
...but it wouldn't have worked, because with the boat acting as a bung in the lock entrance you can't get enough water past it to stop the level inside the lock dropping rapidly, and can't raise the upper pound level fast enough to float the bows off.
Even once we'd reversed off the cill and into the lock, it took quite a long time (maybe 10-15 minutes?) of running water down to raise the level enough to get out safely, and all the time water was p*ssing through the bottom gates... 😞
It was indeed horrible, and the only reason we didn't sink was having seen the description of the sinking incident here on CWDF -- so a heartfelt thank-you to whoever it was that posted that 🙂
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8 minutes ago, DShK said:
So I read a bunch more of Nordkyn design you'll be happy to know @MtB. I thought I had a read a bunch of it but I wasn't aware that there were multiple articles. I read the charging one and found it very interesting.
My understanding now is that charge should be terminated based on a "tail" current which depends on what the ""absorption"" voltage is set to. I also understand that these batteries will continue to charge even if at a "float" voltage. I knew they didn't like to be kept at 100% but I wasn't aware of this overcharging.
I also am aware of the "memory effect" but I get the feeling this is a bit contentious.
I have engaged sterling and they are repeatedly telling me that regardless of what I think, their batteries last years with the Daly high voltage disconnecting. I have told them that hitting 15V on a cell, potentially every day, is not good. And if I set the charge voltage low enough to avoid this (13.8-13.9V) I will get very slow charge times. They also think that there are "multiple schools of thought" on proper lithium charging and safety.
They have offered to take them back to look at them, I am hoping they will do something (replace a cell, top charge them, replace them altogether) but I am not hopeful considering their insistence that the batteries will last the warranty (I want more than 5 years out of them...). Not sure how I will keep my DC electrics going without the batteries, I guess I could wire them to the starter and leave it on a shoreline.
On the plus side, I have set up a raspberry pi as a venus device to get my victron units talking, and get access to node-red. This system allows the solar charge controller to get the battery voltage from the shunt (rather than it's own reading) so it will compensate for voltage drop! Very useful. I will be looking to use node-red to terminate charge when the batteries hit 100% (as measured by the shunt, which can calibrate with tail current - I am not sure how I would reliably terminate based on current readings, given all the variables in play).
There is also a lot of of good information on the marinehowto website, for example:
https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/
https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/
https://marinehowto.com/li-ion-be-careful-what-you-read-believe/
https://marinehowto.com/automotive-alternators-vs-deep-cycle-batteries/
5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:This may not be true because I am not heavily into lithiums, but my understanding is that tail current is not as indicative of being fully charged as t is on lead acids. Please double-check that your understanding is correct. I happily await being told that I'm wrong.
Voltage and SoC (from an appropriate BMS) are more appropriate than tail current -- the key is to *stop charging* when the cells hit the upper voltage limit, typically 3.45V/cell, and not keep pushing any more current in which will cause the voltage to rise rapidly.
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30 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:
There is now a water level warning indicator above the top gate of that lock - an upside down version of the indicators below river locks, with green at the top.
Indeed, I spotted that the next time we went though a few years later. But it wasn't there when we nearly got caught only a few weeks after the boat sank there... 😞
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11 hours ago, M_JG said:
Oh I just knew you would chip in trying to cause an argument for the sake of it.
Do you not realise how hypocritical your post is too?
Unbelievable.
I rest my case. Bye bye, again... 🙂
11 hours ago, 1st ade said:Could members please cease the endless 'sniping' and attempted point scoring (my spell checker tried to put 'pint scoring' which might be nearer the mark..)
Gladly 🙂
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1 hour ago, matty40s said:
Beta are back to normal delivery now. The electric boats are being brought in as the government is stopping direct diesel drive engine boats in the near future.....or Hope's to.
The other reason is that series hybrids are overall more efficient (less diesel/HVO used) if you have to use the engine/generator for charging, and are usually even quieter than a parallel hybrid in electric mode -- assuming a low-speed direct-drive electric motor as opposed to a high-speed belt-drive one which the Beta hybrids use, though at least they've now switched from the air-cooled brushed Lynch motors to water-cooled brushless PMAC ones.
All hybrids are still too expensive for most people though, largely because without a charging network you need an onboard diesel generator, and a decent new one is now over £15k installed. DAMHIK... 😞
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1 hour ago, Tony1 said:
Can I ask what the recommended procedure is, and whether it varies in any way for a singlehander?
I've not really given any thought to how I would respond to getting stuck in a lock (other than to adjust the paddles), and as a card-carrying klutz, I would rather not rely on my instinctive reactions, if the time ever comes.
This was one particularly unusual problem, not one normally encountered -- which was why knowing what had happened (and how to prevent a reoccurrence) was so valuable.
At the time one lock on the HNC Diggle flight had *very* leaky bottom gates, and also a very small pound above it which was therefore lower than normal. A boat going up was coming out of the lock but due to the low water level grounded on the bottom where the top gate closes, leaving the boat stuck part-way out grounded about a third of the way back from the bows -- trying to get out of the lock by going ahead just pushed the boat harder aground. The leaky gates then proceeded to empty the lock and lower the upper pound even further, water couldn't get past the boat fast enough to keep it full (the top paddles were in the gate so of no help) and the boat tipped backwards and sank in the lock.
The same happened to us, but having been warned by the posting on CWDF we were coming out of the lock very slowly -- as soon as the boat ran aground I knew what had happened, we immediately went hard astern to pull it backwards into the lock where it floated safely, I then ran up to the next lock to let some water down until the pound level had come up enough to get out of the lock safely.
This is a very unlikely combination of circumstances, I haven't heard of it happening elsewhere (and the leaky gates were fixed shortly afterwards) so I wouldn't worry about it too much. The most frequent cause of boats sinking in locks is getting the stern hung up on the top cill when going down, this happens maybe a couple of times every year, hence all the warnings about avoiding the cill. Less common are getting hung up when fenders jam the boat in the lock (which is why you should never go through narrow locks with them down), and occasionally getting hung up on a protruding stone or getting caught under a bottom gate walkway -- I've seen all these happen -- or getting a rope or rudder caught between the bottom gates.
In most cases all that's needed is to keep an eye on the boat and if anything starts to go wrong drop the paddles to stop things happening, and then refill the lock. The HNC case was a rare one in that this wasn't fixable by doing this... 😞
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56 minutes ago, M_JG said:
There you go again, sticking your oar in trying to cause an argument for the sake of it. The very thing you accused me of recently. Utterly pathetic hypocrisy.
I said where it is safe to so and on lots of A roads it's not possible to get up to the 60 mph limit any way with 40 or 50 (my limit when towing) being a safe max.
60 mph is a limit, not a target.
Oh and for the record I'm not saying somebody is not telling the truth I'm saying recollections differ.
So run along and go and try and cause an argument for the sake of it with somebody else.
Perhaps before accusing somebody else of spoiling for an argument, you should re-read the first and last paragraphs of what you just posted? 🙂
They read as if they were written to deliberately cause offence and provoke an argument, and then blame somebody else for it -- but I'm sure you'd never do that... 😉
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2 minutes ago, MtB said:
When a death is concerned, the MAIB usually publishes report on what and how happened, which can be very informative in understanding how the accident came about and how to avoid it happening again.
Dunno about this type of incident where the victim survives though.
Without joking or being provocative, I wonder what kind of stern setup the boat had, and whether this contributed to the accident?
There have been several discussions about the risks of things like seats and trip hazards and different types of stern...
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30 minutes ago, Hotspur said:
I chatted to them as they came through Watford Locks on Monday. They are indeed father and son and Dutch nationals. Interestingly, they are both commercial ship masters.So as I speculated, highly experienced with (centre?) wheel steering in open waters and presumably when mooring. Whether this experience makes up for the disadvantages of such a setup on narrow canals is an interesting question; maybe they're good enough helmsmen to get away with it. It does mean that it might be difficult to find a buyer similarly skilled if they ever want to sell it...
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6 minutes ago, magnetman said:
Sounds very nasty.
Hard reversing while standing in the arc of the tiller bar is a possible candidate. Tiller whips round and pushes you in while the prop continues turning and boat goes backwards.
Presumably if the person fell off the back and met the propeller it was most likely in astern gear and if it was an emergency stop type of thing it could have been turning very fast.
Terrible really but probably avoidable.
That's one possibility but right now only speculation, as is "probably avoidable" -- most accidents are avoidable if you have a crystal ball or with the benefit of hindsight, but they still happen...
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1 hour ago, churchward said:
I have not seen anything on local news as yet today but there was a nasty incident at Autherley Junction today. Other than the name of the boat which I don't want to say I do not know who exactly was involved but a man was Fairly badly injured with lacerations and broken arm when he fell off the back of a boat and got snagged by the prop which was still running. I do not know if they were trying to moor or just get around onto the shroppie but it happened just by the bridge. A person also jumped into the water to try and rescue him after the prop was stopped and got him out. I think he likely saved the man's life as he may well have drowned without assistance as I think he was unconscious in the water.
The police and ambulance crews were here quickly and a helicopter landed in a nearby field. The man was given urgent aid from the ambulance crew/paramedics by the canalside and taken off to the hospital. The person did regain consciousness at the canalside and I assume he was taken in the helicopter to the hospital as it did not look like he was taken by the ambulance crew who left without their lights flashing.
There was a bloody patch on the towpath as witness but I think this has been washed away now.
I hope he is OK and at least comfortable now in the hospital and on the road to recovery. A very disturbing afternoon indeed for all concerned.
I hope the casualty is OK, incidents like this can cause horrible injuries.
I wonder if it will be made public what caused the accident, assuming this can be established?
Not because of any ghoulish curiosity, but it might help prevent a similar incident in future.
Before anyone says "well that's not very likely", the report on CWDF of the sinking in the lock on the HNC a few years ago saved us from the same fate a couple of weeks later -- forewarned is forearmed, when we got stuck I knew what had happened and what to do -- not obvious! -- to avoid sinking.
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44 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:
Clue : four letters, rhymes with cat...
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15 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:
A version of the Pholosophical Donkey problem.
One point that seems to have beeb missed in the difference between overtaking and opposed passing is the length over which necessary conditions have to exist, eg width and depth. To pass, little more than the length of the boat is needed as shown in the traditional docey-do manoeuvre. Overtaking requires many boat lengths, depending the speed differential.
Not missed in the slightest, the distance needed for an overtake -- much more than an opposite-direction pass -- was pointed out ages ago, during the discussion about when/where it was safe to overtake.
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44 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:
Well of course, here we are not safe from your silly and sarcastic comments.
Anyway, I have something that you do not have. Can you guess?
You're the one who seems to hate modern technology so much that you refuse to use it and look down on those who do as somehow inferior, even when there's no reason not to and it might actually be helpful or informative... 😉
I've probably got lots of things you don't have, as have many other people, including a sense of humour. What's your point?
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19 minutes ago, pearley said:
And then there are rivers......
Yes there are, where you need *much* more power going upstream...
11 minutes ago, David Mack said:And what about water heating and the space heating for those chilly days in the boating 'season'?
I deliberately didn't mention that, because it makes the numbers look even worse...
Water heating can easily be done by having the generator connected to a calorifier heating coil -- if you have a high-yield coil (which is not standard, but is what I'm doing) then that 1 hour per day of generator running will also give all the hot water needed. Or if you're not moving there should be enough spare solar power to provide this via an immersion heater.
If you need boat heating -- not in summer, obviously -- and you haven't got spare solar power then you also need a heating system, and a diesel boiler is the usual way of doing this since you already need a diesel tank for the generator. Definitely not solar either... 😉
The numbers for "solar-only" just don't add up, except for the case of not much cruising, slowly, in summer. For anything else -- longer cruising days, several days in a row, "normal" speed cruising, rivers, autumn/winter -- there just isn't enough energy available from solar, and a generator is needed -- plus some other heating method when it gets colder. And in winter solar won't provide enough power even if you never move at all on an "all-electric" boat.
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1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:
So you say, can you prove it?
Well if you don't want to visit a YouTube webpage, what makes you think any webpage is safe? Including this one, or anything else you look at?
If you're wearing a tinfoil hat then you obviously can't see *any* videos... 😉
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2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:
Not all of use use or wish to use You Tube or Facebook.
You do know you can just go to YouTube on the web, you don't have to sign up and it won't infect you with any nasty spyware?
Batteries not charging as expected
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted · Edited by IanD
They're imbalanced and/or poorly matched. Even if cells are poorly matched for capacity, if you top balance them correctly at 100% SoC any imbalance will only really show up towards 0% SoC. But with grade A cells from the same batch -- which is what they should be using inside their batteries -- this shouldn't happen either.
If it's only one cell at 3.75V and all the others match (e.g. at 3.45V) than it could also be that you've got one dodgy cell... 😞
https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/
Parallel Step-Method Top Balance:
1- Wire the cells in parallel
2- Set the power supply to 3.400V and 80% or less of the rated amperage (80% to not burn it out)
3- Turn on power supply and charge cells to 3.400V
4- When current has dropped to 0.0A at 3.400V turn off the power supply & set it to 3.500V
5- Turn on power supply and charge cells to 3.500V
6- When current has dropped to 0.0A at 3.500V turn off the power supply & set to 3.600V
7- Allow current to drop to 0.0A (or very close) at 3.60V
8- Done, pack is balanced.
WARNING: Top each cell up, to a similar SoC level, prior to wiring them in parallel.