IanD
Patron
-
Posts
11,379 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
89
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Gallery
Blogs
Store
Posts posted by IanD
-
-
13 hours ago, system 4-50 said:
It may not be relevant to this accident but can we design a better tiller? One that disconnects when it encounters a kick?
It doesn't need to disconnect, what would be better is something like the torque limiting mechanism you get in a torque wrench -- doesn't move normally but slips under an unusually high torque, set to higher than you'd ever get in normal rudder operation.
This wouldn't then need anything like a link replacing afterwards, just jam the rudder with a piece of wood and push the tiller arm back round into alignment.
Could even be made as a sealed unit to bolt between the top rudder bearing and the stock, a bit like a flexible prop coupling.
-
2 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:
Which is what I’d have expected, only sensible thing to do.Best to put this little sub-plot aside as this is a horrible subject. I’ll be passing Autherley tomorrow. Currently at Wolves top.
It is a horrible subject, but one that has to be faced up to if it means reducing the chance of it happening to somebody else in the future.
From what @churchward implied it seems likely that the boat was going astern and the tiller swept the steerer overboard, possibly with the assistance of seats but this isn't clear.
If this is the case then it just reinforces the oft-quoted advice about where to stand when steering (and where not to), and possibly the inadvisability of seats in the wrong place -- and either way it wouldn't the first time this has happened.
-
12 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:
Probably worth a reminder that the original point I made was just to further your knowledge that the practice of placing the stern line in a coil on the slide is a contemporary technique taught to all boaters and not some old fashioned nonsense.My boating experience from 1977 to 2015 was pretty much all on hire boats and back in the early days they were all cruiser sterns.
My little trad is indeed lovely but being only 35’ long with decent length swims and being configured with a large propellor and rudder relative to its size, coupled with a quite shallow draught, it really does not like sitting happily in the middle of the channel and requires some force to keep straight.
Actually some historic boats are exceptionally heavy to steer on account of the size of the prop and rudder when in forward gear, but you can reverse them hard and they stay arrow straight in the channel. If I do that on Vulpes I will go round in circles.
Forward of the tiller does not mean facing forwards, just standing clear in the direction of the bow. On Vulpes I stand sideways in the hatch and steer with my right arm at my side and my hand quite close to my hip. I turn my head to face forward often enough to be able to navigate. I think that’s pretty normal for steering a trad. Steering a semi-trad is similar but perhaps not at 90 degrees because there’s generally nowhere comfortable to rest your arse. In that sense a semi-trad is more like a cruiser stern. A cruiser doesn’t force you to stand forward but I still think it’s a wise method to teach. I steer lots of different boats on a regular basis, something you seem to be overlooking, and I will stand forward of the tiller. I think it’s natural but it’s also how I was trained.
Where do you think you’ll stand to steer your semi-trad?I didn't mean to imply it was "old-fashioned nonsense", just that it's what trad boaters did in the good old days -- along with all the other things they did which are frowned on nowadays but got them from A to B faster 😉
Nothing wrong with it, but it does have disadvantages for newbies -- not you or me, obviously -- for the reasons I pointed out.
To answer your final question -- I'll either stand forward of the tiller or sit on the raised seat/bike locker just inside the semi-trad section -- always assuming the tiller is nicely balanced and doesn't pull to one side... 😉
-
Just now, booke23 said:
Nothing. And I can see where you're coming from.
But humans will be humans and without an override, some will just disconnected or cut the spring rendering the safety benefits useless.
On that principle there's no point taking any safety precautions which can be hacked to disable them -- meaning, almost any of them.
If a few idiots want to disable safety precautions then it's their problem if they get killed or injured as a result. For everyone else who isn't that impatient or stupid, lives will be saved.
-
1
-
-
2 minutes ago, DShK said:
I'm not sure, when it goes out of balance it's the "cell volt high" that triggers. I imagine the cell imbalance would trigger otherwise.
Yeah, that's what I thought. I would reject them, but as the thread linked by rusty shows, they come up with these excuses a lot. I want to try and play the being nice card rather than a disgruntled customer, until it gets to that point. If they decide they don't want to warranty, I guess my only option is small claims court? But then how do I argue my word over theirs? I can't exactly quote forums as a source of reputable info.
No idea what the cells are. Yeah, I saw this thread previously, which is why I was unsurprised about their response, sadly. You only find these things when you've had the same issues, unfortunately.
Yep....
If you have the means to do it, you could charge the batteries up to what the BMS says is "100% SoC", then discharge them down to what the BMS says is (for example) "0% SoC", and measure the Ah used (or you could go down to a higher percentage like 10% or 20% SoC" and scale the result). With that amount of cell imbalance it's unlikely that 2 or 3 of the cells are fully charged at "100% SoC", so you should find the battery Ah capacity is lower than the specification. If it is, this gives you grounds to reject them ("not as described").
-
11 minutes ago, Paul C said:
The "blocking of the car going over the speed limit" is an interesting topic. For example, if I'm on a dual carriageway (with 2 running lanes) and there's a bunch of HGVs, I'm entitled to sit in the outer lane in a van doing 60mph and overtake them, while they're doing 56mph. Just as they're entitled to sit in the outer lane (unless signed) going 56mph, overtaking another doing 55.9mph.
The 70+mph car has no right to 'demand' the van, or HGV, give up its overtaking manoeuvre for the sake of his, even though he's -10mph in the process. The only requirement is to not pull out in front of the car causing it to have to slow abruptly. But slow it will once it catches up with the slower overtaker.
Its the same scenario as when you see cars coming up to the backside of others on the motorway, right up their tailgate, only to see the brake lights illuminate and a period of tailgating, before they drop back and realise they aren't getting past in a hurry. A much better technique is to gradually approach in a smooth fashion, reaching the correct distance behind to do the overtake, exactly at the point in time that overtake is now possible.
And to pre-empt the "caravan" angle - the difference is the HGV or van is undoubtedly using the road for a commercial reason, they're making progress as fast as the law allows, in a responsible manner. They are doing it for a living/profession, unlike the leisure user.
I don't think the "blocking" comments was aimed at drivers who are genuinely overtaking another vehicle, even if they're going slower than the car behind wants to -- it was aimed at the drivers who sit in lane 2 (on a dual carriageway) at 70mph (or what they think is 70mph) when there's no vehicle in lane 1 for hundreds of yards ahead of them, and don't pull over when a faster car comes up behind them because "it's the limit, innit?".
What also isn't excusable is tailgaters trying to bully cars out of their way, when those cars are overtaking slower traffic on a busy motorway.
In Germany both these types of behaviour -- especially tailgating -- can result in big fines, and I'm sure this is one reason the standard of driving on motorways is better than here -- as well as the fact that a Porsche might perfectly legally come up behind you at 200+kph... 😉
-
3 minutes ago, Tonka said:
I have reported this post to hopefully get it locked as none of you were there apart from @churchward. Your speculation and bickering is probably not helping the family of the bereaved and will not be helping Churchward
Apart from the bickering -- hopefully stopped now -- there has been quite a lot of genuine discussion about boat safety on the canals, some of which may well be new to some people and help them boat more safely.
That seems to me like a good reason to keep the thread open, not close it down.
Or if this is distressing to Churchward, move the safety-related posts to another thread.
-
2
-
-
1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:
I give in
Huh? I was simply pointing out that a motorbike undertaking a car (alright, overtaking on the left of you want to be pedantic) is dangerous (and illegal?), just like overtaking a car which is overtaking a bike with traffic coming the other way on a single carriageway -- if anything more so because car drivers don't expect motorbikes to pass them on the wrong side.
Many car drivers nowadays -- not me or you, obviously -- barely seem to be able to cope with being overtaken on the right side even when its safe, or somebody doing the same to an approaching car even when there's plenty of room to do it safely -- cue lots of flashing and hooting and handwaving. Given all that, a motorbike passing a car on the wrong side is more than a bit risky, especially given who is going to come off the worst if the car pulls in.
-
1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:
OK here goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the most effective safety device would be for morse controls to be spring biased to neutral when reverse is selected, that is it must be held in reverse against a spring, when the handle is released it will return to neutral, superior to kill switches etc as it requires no precautions by the steerer.
Until it's adopted people will continue to be violently injured or killed.
A very good idea, the downside is that it might make reversing any distance more difficult -- but this seems a small price to pay if it saves lives, as it undoubtedly would.
-
1
-
-
5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:
If I am passing a cyclist then there would be room for the motorbike to come through on the inside, I don't normally run them over, also I only have a cheep old Peugeot so its fitted with indicators which I activate before pulling out to pass the cyclist after looking in my mirror.
Any motorcyclist regularly undertaking cars is likely to need the attention of an undertaker sooner rather than later...
-
16 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:
Experience and training.So unlike your undoubtedly lovely and well-engineered trad boat, do you have much experience of steering cruiser stern hire boats where the rudder needs a continuous sideways pressure to keep it running straight? Because I have, on numerous occasions, and steering these by standing in front of the tiller facing forwards is unpleasant to start with and painful after a time, because having one arm cranked behind you applying this force is not easy. Or you can stand sideways on in front of the tiller which is mechanically much better for your arm, but results in a cricked neck -- especially in cold weather -- because you're perpetually staring over your left shoulder. So standing a bit off to one side but out of the arc of the tiller with a straighter arm is the best solution in this case -- not the ideal case that you have.
That's my experience, because not everyone's is the same as yours, as I was trying to point out.
And yes I've also steered trad boats which will track arrow-straight with no force on the tiller where standing as you describe is the best thing to do.
Not everybody is the same you -- or me... 😉
-
Just now, Captain Pegg said:
No Ian. I think they should should take more notice of organisations accredited to provide inland waterways training than of you.You stand in front of the tiller because you have the full 90 degrees of steering arc available from that position.
I'm sure you know better than me, I bow to your greater experience... 🙂
-
1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:
I pull close to the kerb when I have a bike come up behind me
Oh dear, thinking of other road users, that's reprehensible -- as a car driver "ME ME ME" should be your motto... 😉
Erratum : for "road/car", read "canal/boat"
-
4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
I agree, but it shows that CaRT bylaws are not the be all and end all of inland boating.
Or it shows that the insurance company wrongly misinterpreted which laws apply on the canals, not that COLREGs apply there -- which seems to be the case.
If they're one of the marine insurers that mainly deals with lumpy water boats with canal boats as a small sideline, they may have some excuse for making a genuine error -- though of course they should know which laws apply where because that's their job. If they're one of the few insurers which specialise in the inland waterways (are there any?) they have no excuse...
-
5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
Sorry to open this up again, but I think that within the last few years we had a request for help from a boater who had been T Boned at a junction and the insurance company denied responsivity on the grounds of COLREGS. The chap seemed to be having a hard time getting them to accept CaRT by-laws re sounding of horns and giving way at junctions etc.
Sounds like a case of an insurance company using spurious reasons to try and wriggle out of paying a claim. Of course we all know they *never* do that, don't we? 😉
-
5 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:
It’s not just a “trad” thing. It was part of the syllabus on my RYA helmsman course last year.The other point about it is that it puts the stern line in a position where it is ready to deploy on either rear dolly/stud. On a boat with a cruiser rail that’s more important than on a trad because those rails are a PITA for deployment of stern lines.
Also to add I’ve just had the tiller ripped out of hand by a solid object hitting the rudder. No problem as I was standing in the correct position, which is in front of the tiller no matter what type of stern you’re steering.
I'm sure it was on your RYA helmsman course, as demonstrated by the correct use of the word "deploy". However newbie boaters don't have your level of expertise or knowledge, and I've seen the entire rope thrown overboard more than once -- and for boaters like this it can be better to leave one end attached to the boat, and hooks on the stern rail (awkward access and all) seems like a good way to do this.
Surely the correct position is outside the arc of the tiller? Which in some boats (e.g. a small trad stern, like yours?) may well mean directly in front of it, but in others (e.g. a large cruiser stern) may be diagonally off to one side, which is easier to steer for most people because they can stand facing forwards with their arm out sideways. And yes, I've steered both types of stern, and had a cricked neck from a trad... 🙂
On both counts you seem to be assuming that everyone is -- or ought to be? -- like you, but they're clearly not... 😉
-
15 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:
I hate them all equally at the moment, Audi/BMW are usually driven recklessly with little to no care of other road users, but it's usually a Volvo or Merc that will pop into your lane without indicating and proceed to overtake another vehicle by doing 0.1mph more than they are.
Also, i think it's the law to wear driving gloves as well if sporting a trilby/panama hat
Phew I'm safe then -- I've had all those cars in the past but the last two have been Skodas, and I don't have either a trilby or a panama or a sharp suit or driving gloves. See avatar for hair colour though... 😉
-
16 minutes ago, haggis said:
I really feel for you and I can understand how it will be very difficult to stop thinking about it. My thoughts are with the boaters family.
From what you have said, it brings to mind discussions which crop up here from time to time about the safety or otherwise of some seats on the stern of boats and where to stand when steering . Hopefully this terrible tragedy will help make boaters be more conscious of the risks.
haggis
There was such a discussion very recently in the last few pages of this, which as so often shed more heat than light on the subject...
-
3 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:
You seem to have spelt Volvo and Mercedes incorrectly?
Surely the Volvo/Mercedes is the dawdler in front (grey-haired driver with trilby) and the Audi/BMW is the tailgater behind (sharp-suited young salesman)? 😉
-
11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:
I was doing the speed limit, the biker was going a lot faster. But it’s not correct to be a vigilante and deliberately impede others because you feel entitled to enforce the speed limit. This is the argument that people use when they are driving in the outside lane at 70.00mph on their speedometers with a big queue behind. Apart from anything else, 70 on their speedometer is likely to be around 65 actual mph. My old Subaru had a full 10% error in the speedo. My current Skoda has about 5%.As to cars, obviously it depends on the width of the road but there are plenty of places where the road is plenty wide enough for 3 vehicles. By signalling left and pulling over a bit you allow others to get on their way without holding them up. Why wouldn’t you want to do that? Why take pleasure in holding other people up, it’s weird and not very nice.
Methinks you've answered your own question here... 😉
-
42 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
Same here.
I have been trying to find out what cells they use, but have had no luck. Does anyone know?
Similar issue here if you want some light afternoon reading:
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/bms-cut-off-one-unbalanced-cell.26987/
That sounds like exactly the same problem, with the same battery from the same supplier, and the same excuses... 😞
-
2 hours ago, churchward said:
It is good in a way that the Topic has spawned a discussion about boating safety.
It is with great sadness however that we have learnt this morning that the poor man died in the night in hospital from his injuries. His wife is being cared for.
I am truly upset today, there are images in my head that will take some time to fade and I am so sorry for his family and friends.
It's no consolation to his family, but if it turns out that the cause of the accident can be established, and it was something that boaters can be advised to avoid doing in future (and they take notice of this advice!), there's some small chance that it will save another family the same grief...
-
1
-
-
38 minutes ago, DShK said:
They told me it's just because of a different BMS "The LB range of batteries feature a different BMS and an overall more premium feel and display no status signs when at peak charge, but are also ~1.5x the price and as such most customers do not end up choosing them"
And when pushed on the "Daly Quirk" - "Regarding the cell quirks- general theory has been that they have had slightly different total capacities, leading to them reaching peak first."
They told me they have no interest in active balancing as it makes the batteries more costly (uncompetitive) and too much self discharge.
3.38V is significantly below 100% SoC for 2 of the cells. 3.75V is above the recommended 3.65V/cell maximum that LFP batteries should ever see for maximum lifetime -- it's the "emergency disconnect" threshold. 380mV cell imbalance is *huge*, way above what you should ever see which is at most a few 10s of mV.
I don't know what else to say. If they were mine I'd reject them...
-
1
-
-
1 minute ago, DShK said:
Now can you convince sterling that this is the case? 😄 It's just a "our opinion vs your opinion" situation with them at the moment. The sad thing is I bought sterling because I thought the customer service would be better if something was amiss, over say the cheaper fogstar batteries with the Overkill BMS...
Weird thing is both the batteries are the same for this behaviour. Which I guess is either there IS something weird about the Daly BMS (and this isn't the actual voltage) - Although they could provide no third party evidence of this when asked - Or all their batteries are just assembled with randomly mismatched cells.
They did say their more expensive batteries don't have this behaviour...
Maybe their more expensive batteries have a better BMS with active balancing, or better matched cells to start off with?
When the highest cell hits the 3.75V cutoff, what voltage are the other cells at?
Awful incident a Autherley Junction today.
in General Boating
Posted · Edited by IanD
Yes accidents will always happen, but that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile making people aware of hazards so they can choose whether to do anything to reduce the risk or not.
Hire boat companies already do this (tell people where not to stand at handover, boats are marked with signs or paint on the deck).
Boat owners -- like the one you mention -- can be more complacent or ignorant or think they know better or it won't happen to them -- which may explain why most of these incidents seem to happen to them... 😞