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Scholar Gypsy

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Posts posted by Scholar Gypsy

  1. 25 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:


    Yes they do, fairly regularly up the Severn, over the Wash and across the Mersey, possibly on the Thames too. 

    Hence my question and I can’t see anyone has answered either way. As I pointed out perhaps not the wisest alone unfamiliar with the boat but with a pilot is by far the cheapest and easiest lock wise. There are good boat engineers who could ensure the engine was in good shape. 

    I know @Scholar Gypsy has been up to Hull/Beverley, but I don’t think he had a pilot. Perhaps he knows if a Pilot would do it and is available. It’s probably a better  job than navigating the oil tankers up the Humber to Immingham. 


    TBH doing the Rochdale or Huddersfield as a first trip is not exactly a great idea either. 


     

     


    Here's some stuff about the trip to Hull. We didn't have a pilot but the skipper in charge had spoken to some knowledgeable locals.

    https://scholargypsy.org.uk/2021/06/17/rivers-trent-humber-and-hull-1-keadby-to-old-harbour/

    As noted earlier the Trentlink group is now offering some advice on this, and can point you to some local guides/pilots. I think I read on the Trentlink Facebook group that CRT are planning to organise some sort of escorted convoy around Trent Falls.

    • Greenie 1
  2. There has been some discussion about extending the Gold licence to cover MLC waterways in 2024. I can now offer you three answers to this question.
     

    The first two come from a recent CRT  document  https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/document/zdk_NUte4QiM2pDqr6NwrQ/Kfb8qgg0sBW1XUtFEDSrML23fOmR200w59ehZl0-99k/aHR0cHM6Ly9jcnRwcm9kY21zdWtzMDEuYmxvYi5jb3JlLndpbmRvd3MubmV0L2RvY3VtZW50Lw/018c8bd8-b872-7368-9554-edb5960fb204.pdf

     

    1. It says the licence covers only EA and CRT waterways (at the top)
       
    2. But it has the ML on the list of waterways at the end. (I know the licencing system has allowed you to declare a home mooring on the MLC for  a while now.)

     

    But the third comes from the  MLC    https://middlelevel.gov.uk/navigation/licensing/   

     

     3.   This says “If you hold a CRT Gold Licence you will either need an Anglian Pass or Middle Level visitor licence to visit our waterways. The Gold Licence arrangements are a partnership between the CRT and the Environment Agency and it has been concluded that there is insufficient demand to justify changes in IT systems and legal agreements to include the Middle Level Commissioners within the formal arrangements. However, we are awaiting (as of March 2024) a formal offer from the Environment Agency to provide income from those CRT Gold Licence holders who have their home mooring as ‘Middle Levels’ within their CRT online account details. We can then invest this income within the Middle Level system alongside other licencing income.  In anticipation of this offer from the Environment Agency, if you are a CRT Gold Licence holder and the Middle Level is your home mooring then you need to ensure your details within the CRT system are correct to be considered as licenced on our waterways. We will need to review the situation if the Environment Agency’s offer does not materialise by the end of the 2024 boating season.”

     

    Rather confusing!  I think I believe the third statement. That means visitors will need either an Anglian Pass or visitor licences to cross the Middle Level.  (This is of course impossible at the moment due to stoppages and flooding on the Nene, and a large lump of silt at Salters Lode).  

    Another plug for the more general guidance here: https://goba.org.uk/a-guide-for-visitors-to-the-east/

    • Greenie 1
  3.  

    19 minutes ago, bizzard said:

    What colours do colour blind folk see red and green as?


    As a red-green (slightly) colour blind person, I am not sure this is a logically sensible question. I can distinguish proper nav lights in the dark very easily. On the other hand grimy buoys at a distance on a murky day are much harder, so I rely on the shape.

  4. Yes, that's the one. The headline gives the impression there was a tanker pumping sewage into the lock.  Rather sounds like the EA forgot to open the sluices at both ends on a regular basis, to flush it downriver.  Or it may be because the smaller lock (on the left in the photo) is closed for maintenance at the moment.

     

    Someone asked at the meeting why the output from the STW could not be sent straight down the pipes to east london.  That's not allowed, apparently - would need another treatment process (after the tertiary one at Mogden that is already part of the plan) - there has to be an environmental buffer between STW outlet and water treatment inlet.  I should add that the storm water overflow from Mogden will continue as now to go into the tideway, and will not go down the new pipe to Teddington. 

  5. 7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

     

     

    A 1000 litres per second is not a small amount.

    or .....

    3.6 million litres per hour

    86.4 million litres per day


    For most rivers it would be pretty small compared with the normal flow - but I agree that on the Cam water is very short in the summer, and a good proportion of the flow in the summer is from the STW.  

     

    I went to an interesting presentation  last week (at a PLA open meeting) on a scheme to increase drinking water supply in London, via an abstraction point just above Teddington.  https://thames-wrmp.co.uk/tdra/ Involves tertiary treated output from the Mogden STW (not storm overflow) being added to the river at Teddington.

    Mogden-to-Teddington-illustration.png

  6. 41 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

    Don't harbours off tidal waters have an obligation to provide "safe haven"  if required 


    This question has been investigated some time ago - not by me, but by someone I trust - and the legal answer is "No". 

    Oh and on the licence question, it will be possible to book by calling the Customer Contact Centre. It's just not encouraged!

     

    Here's a more compact version of my spreadsheet, with HWLB (adjusted for BST) and an indication of which slots should be available at Limehouse.

    booklet.xlsx

    • Greenie 1
  7. 1 minute ago, magnetman said:

    That would be good. 

     

     

    Maybe entry and exit could be confused with the simple act of going in and out of the lock. 


    Yes, you have reminded me!  When I explain our passage plan at the briefing before a SPCC tideway cruise, I explain that when it says "Limehouse 0800" that is the time when you exit the lock and go under the Narrow St bridge. Not when you enter the lock. Not when you cast off from your mooring. Not when you put your coffee down and look for that last lifejacket. 

    I will flag this with CRT's developer, I am just checking that the wording is easy to change later on, it's getting the underlying logic right that is the tricky bit.

  8. 1 hour ago, magnetman said:

     

     

    I think using the terms inbound and outbound to describe the lock transit itself could cause some confusion. 

     

    On the tideway the terms inward bound and outward bound are used to describe direction of travel. Upstream and downstream don't work because the steam could be going either way. Inward bound you are going into the land away from the sea regardless of stream direction. If one were to use the word 'upstream' someone is liable to follow the direction of the water. 

     

     

    I would use entry and exit to describe the lock transit. 

     

    Most inland boaters think of upstream and downstream so its alright to use those but I personally think using inbound and outbound adds a bit of confusion..

     

     

     

     


    Thanks, that is helpful. I'm obviously getting a bit too close to this!  I decided against entry/exit, for some reason I now cannot remember,

    An alternative is to follow the approach used at Thames Lock Brentford , which offers four options: to/from Teddington, and to/from Limehouse.  So that would make six options. This works for most users I think: someone going to say Chiswick Pier, or to Gravesend, will need to use common sense. A narrowboater going from L to B would need to select "To Brentford" when booking at Limehouse and "From Limehouse" at Brentford.
     

    A To Brentford/Teddington (early)

    B To Brentford/Teddington (late)

    C1 HW to Estuary

    C2 HW from Estuary

    D From Teddington/Brentford (early)

    E  From Teddington/Brentford (late)

    • Greenie 1
  9. 5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

    What are the opening hours? And will there be shorter slots if the listed time windows fall partly within and partly outside opening hours?


    Opening hours are 0700-1900 most of the year, and 0800-1600 November 1st to March 1st. Yes, the slots will be truncated.  I have just upgraded my spreadsheet to cope with five slots.  This is at least a start for those who want to do some passage planning.... Available for download here....

    Book1.xlsx

    • Greenie 1
  10. After further discussion, CRT will be modifying/upgrading the website to offer the following slots around each HW (subject to the opening hours)
     

    A – “outbound upstream (early)”                         HW-4 to HW-2.5 hours

    B -  “outbound upstream (late)”                           HW-2.5 to HW – 1 hours

    C1 – “HW outbound”                                HW-1 to HW+1

    C2 – “ HW inbound”                                   HW-1 to HW+1

    D  - “inbound from upstream (early)”                  HW+1 to HW+2.5

    E – “inbound from upstream (late)”                     HW+2.5 to HW+4

     

    So if I was going from L to T, I would book slot A, to Brentford I might take B, and to or from South Dock C. Coming downriver from T or B I would book slot E unless on a speedy boat!
     

    The Trust are also keen to add some words to the website to help boaters with preparation and passage planning. I have started to think about that - bullet points (not paragraphs of prose please!) would be welcome.

    • Greenie 1
  11. 3 hours ago, magnetman said:

    By all day I meant turning left first. 

     

    My Boat isn't a canal Boat although nor is it fast at 6 knots. 

     

    I'll try altering it to the afternoon and see what the website says. 

    ETA I have done the passage before in a variety of different Boats but not with this new tinpot booking system. Back in the day one just went in the lock orifice and got details into their book. 

     

    They even used pens and paper !!

     

     

    ETA changed it to the afternoon tide and it is now saying 1818. 

     

    Their computer is calculating the exit time as HWLB rather than HWLB -3.5hrs. 

     

    There does not appear to be an option to choose exit time. 

     

    All that needs to be done is the computer needs to be set to the beginning of the opening window for exit inward bound. 

     

     

    There is no specific detail about whether one is inward bound or outward bound. 

     

    It just says out onto Thames or In off Thames. 

     

    Whoever devised this does not understand how this system is supposed to operate. 

     

    Virtually all vessels with CRT licence leaving LH will be moving inward bound for BFD or TEDD.

     

    If this basic factor is not understood then there will be problems. 

     

    Am I missing something ? 

     

     

     


    I agree. CRT accept that the slots currently offered on the website are not workable.  My current proposal to them (as set out in my spreadsheet posted above on an earlier comment) is that the website should offer up to four slots on any give high tide (they may not all be available, or they may be truncated, eg at start or end of the day when the 0700-1900 operating window will get in the way). As at Brentford, the lock operator should be there throughout the slot, until all the booked boats have been sorted.

     

    A: HW-4 to HW-90 mins, departing Limehouse for a trip upriver. Most people will (like you) want to depart towards the start of the window

    B1: HW-90 mins to HW+90 mins: departing Limehouse, probably for a trip downriver to the Estuary

    B2: HW-90 to HE+90: arriving Limehouse, probably from the Estuary

    C ;  HW+90 mins to HW+40 hours, arriving Limehouse, from upriver. 

  12. 3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

    I'm going to Teddington and don't particularly mind taking all day. 

     

    I did think it was an error just wondering if they are that clueless that they would let Boats out at completely the wrong time. 

     

    If that is the case then a representation needs to be made to the PLA about it. 

     

     

     

     

    Is this a concerted effort to put people off using Limehouse or is it just incompetence? 

     

    I always look for patterns. Coming the other way I can see the rather uncomfortable waiting pontoons becoming popular. 

     

    If I change to the afternoon tide I don't think they will give me 1500. I believe their system is geared to offer HWLB as the exit time which everyone knows is wrong.

     

     

    I think you may end up going backwards at Blackfriars. Anyway there is no chance of anyone being there at 0600 to  operate the lock!

    In the afternoon the website currently offers you 1418-1818, which is correct. Departing 1430-1500 would be fine.

    I have been discussing the issue with the PLA, most recently at their open meeting in Putney on Monday.  

    I do think skippers need to understand the tides, and do their own passage planning. 

    Finally, this page still needs some work (and CRT have asked for my help with it):  https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/where-we-work/london-and-south-east/boating-information/boating-facilities/locks-to-the-river-thames

  13. 14 minutes ago, magnetman said:

     

     

    I just went through the online booking process and was able to book 0600 on Sunday 31st March. Now I am not sure of the tides but at least it gives all day which helps.

     

    See what happens I imagine they may correct it. 

    That is an error.  High Water London Bridge is 0600 (BST) that day, so you would be punching the tide all the way to Teddington (Brentford would shut at 0900, and you won't get there in time).  The website offers a slot between 0200 and 0600 - which as I say is an error -  and you would want to leave at about 0300. 

    I would suggest using the afternoon tide, and leaving Limehouse at about 1500. HWLB is 1815. That should enable you to go to Brentford (shuts 1900) or Teddington (open 24/7).
     

  14. 1 minute ago, magnetman said:

    I am very interested in the PLA view on all this. I seem to recall a while back there were some rumours around that the PLA may look to ban canal Boats or perhaps require skippers of vessels entering the tideway to have a certificate of some sort. 

     

    It might be my imagination but I think they may find the presence of leisure narrow Boats a bit of a nuisance. 

     

    Risk assessments &c. 

     

     

     


    I've not heard any more on this in recent years.

    Personally I think the PLA harbourmasters work really hard to allow the smallest thing that will float, and the biggest container ships in the world, to safely co-exist. Supported by the Chief Executive who is (or was!) a tideway rower. I suspect SUPs are more of a nuisance than narrowboats.  (see the idiot in the link below)

     

    So for example they come down hard on anyone creating excessive wash.  For our part, proper preparation and equipment is key, which is why I always react quite volubly when I see people posting on social media saying "a mobile phone is fine, you don't need a VHF radio".  That sort of attitude will increase the risk of further regulatory action. It is fair to note that (following an unfortunate incident at Hammersmith a few years ago) the regulations for hire boats on the tideway  cannot realistically be complied with by narrowboats - so there aren't any any more.

    https://scholargypsy.org.uk/2023/07/13/sup-training/

    • Greenie 2
  15. Thanks for drawing this thread to my attention.  Three representatives (from SPCC, IWA and the DBA/Limehouse residents) had a useful meeting with CRT a few days ago.  They have accepted that the current slots offered on the website are not right, and in particular don't allow for the various options for arriving and departing. Watch this space! 

     

    A few other points I would add:

    • I strongly  agree with @Peugeot 106 that the skipper needs to do their own passage planning and understand the tides.  One certainly should not rely on a website to tell you when to depart. 
    • The winter hours (0800-1600) only apply from November to February inclusive. The other 8 months are 0700-1900.
    • We are still discussing these hours with CRT. It's not going to be easy to persuade them to change - this is a national policy and one that makes sense in many contexts (but the moon does not cooperate so far as tidal locks are concerned).
    • These new hours will mean there are quite a few days, even in summer, where Brentford to Limehouse (and vv) transits are not possible. And some days when Limehouse to/from Teddington is not possible (unless you fancy bashing against the tide) 
    • CRT have started training people to operate the lock (and the bridge, which is temperamental). I have volunteered myself. Ditto Brentford Thames lock (which is simpler). 
    • We have been trying to engage the PLA on all this, but no luck yet. I will have another go at their open meeting (they are normally excellent events) in Putney on Monday week.
    • Greenie 3
  16. 1 minute ago, MtB said:

     

    And yet... there are droplets of water visible on the yellow plastic sheet behind the fitting in your photo! 

     

     


    That was from when I removed the  previous fittings.  Most of the coolant had been drained into a bucket in the engine room, but not all....  The lagging is also a bit soggy.  Any leaks end up in the cabin bilge and are very easy to spot.

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