Joshua

Where do Kelvin’s feature in the big picture? I like the look of them, they sound right and I believe they have a good long marine history but I noticed they haven’t featured yet. What’s wrong with them? I suppose in wanting a vintage engine I am looking for something like my partner, a companion that likes to be told how much she is loved and that behaves badly when neglected, that goes about her work with a sweet sing song not a nagging grumble. That is not too expensive to maintain and is powerful enough to deal with strong river currents without too much fuss (I don’t think my partner can do that last thing). I hadn’t thought about vibrations, can this be dealt with by proper tuning and installation or are some engines just rough, come what may? Cheers, Joshua

I am going to buy a boat with a vintage engine so have been doing some research, I had a look at the vintage engine section of this forum and note that the Lister group is far and away the most active. Is this because: the Lister is most popular? the most unreliable? or is this forum not representative of the ‘real world’? Cheers, Joshua

As a matter of interest, have there been any studies and are there any statistics on the relative causes of canal water losses? Joshua

I empathise with what I interpret was the OP’s point, namely that; an apparently increasing use of life jackets by canal boat users might suggest a trend towards blind faith in safety equipment than personal responsibility and common sense. The fact that a person wearing a life jacket has a greater chance of survival than someone not wearing one, does not address that issue. Speaking as someone old enough to have lived at a time when childhood was about learning from the adventures one was allowed to get into and therefore, from the mistakes one was allowed to make, my gut reaction would be like the OP’s, these trends tend to end in restrictive practices and compulsion, the fear is that one day, I wont have the free choice that those wearing life jackets currently (and rightly so) have, but instead will be obliged to wear one. As the OP says, high visibility vests are now compulsory (at our expense) in many circumstances, often with doubtful benefits. The demise of school adventure holidays is a perfect example of the absurdity that can result from blindly pursuing every safety measure available. I am of the school that believes the world presents and always will, situations where we can harm or kill ourselves and that it is therefore better to develop awareness and common sense than to keep introducing new rules in a never ending attempt to protect people from themselves, one step behind each new accident. Of course, seeing an individual boater wearing a life jacket doesn’t indicate that the end of the world is nigh, but I think the OP was suggesting that the practice was becoming commonplace, irrespective of the conditions that might warrant it, a slippery slope perhaps? (sorry!) Joshua

Appreciate this thread is nothing to do with boating (I didn’t start it) but it is about something very close to my heart and I am (after my last experience) in self imposed exile on boating issues. Over the years I have, to my utter dismay and despite precaution, killed many slow worms, snakes, lizards and frogs, with the strimmer. The grim reapers scythe for a lot of wildlife, the only sure way to avoid this terrible destruction is not to use the strimmer at all. I have minimised the slaughter by keeping a flock of sheep rather than mowing and a goat helps keep the inter-land under control. As far as the strimmer is concerned I have learnt that if you take a bit of care and strim a few inches above the ground rather than aggressively low, you will kill far less life. As a matter of interest and to steer the subject back towards canal life, many times I have ‘hacked’ back the wilderness of areas of my land with reservation, fearing for the fortunes of its wildlife, only to find, after my clearance, the wildlife thriving as never before. In particular, I have badger, red squirrel, deer and owls now thriving in areas that I have ‘cultivated’ and where previously they did not. I have read a number of scientific reports studying the wildlife of canals before and after their renovation and it seems clear to me that generally the canal life is far healthier when the canals are kept navigable and with an active boating community than when stagnated and overgrown. So, it seems, you can’t win! Joshua

That’s the trouble with the internet, just a simple, single key to press, please feel free to delete what I just posted, I beg you. Joshua

I am amazed that I am even thinking of making this post, I hope it will be a valuable contribution, but on the other hand, it might equally be the horrible consequence of consuming too much wine. I can’t, but probably should, stop now. The popcorn thing is all very amusing but being serious for a minute, I came to the conclusion some time ago that these never-ending arguments are more often an inevitable and un-resolvable consequence of participants arguing about different issues rather than from different sides of a single issue and that’s why they keep regurgitating. With a view to trying to make sense of the ‘popcorn’ thread about mooring abuses and find a simple way for posters to identify where they are ‘coming from’, I had a go at trying to simplify the issues (all-be-it after drinking a bottle of wine). The first thing that popped into my mind (no pun intended) was a division between: [1] How one owns and regulates ones ownership of a boat. [2] How one uses the inland waterways. Take issue [1] first, I can identify just 6 ways of owning a boat: [A] Live aboard with legal ‘Residential Mooring’ Live aboard with ‘Leisure Mooring’ [C] Live aboard with ‘No Mooring’ [D] Continuous Cruiser [E] Leisure owner with ‘Leisure Mooring’ [F] Leisure owner with ‘No Mooring’ I can identify (from what I read on this forum) just 7 different points of view. [1] No one should live on the waterways but everyone should have and pay for a mooring. [2] No one should live on the waterways but don’t care whether or not one has a mooring. [3] It is OK to live on the waterways provided one has a legal Residential mooring or CC. [4] It is OK to live on the waterways provided one has a legal Residential mooring. [5] It is OK to live on the waterways provided one has a mooring of any type or CC. [6] It is OK to live on the waterways provided one has a mooring of any type. [7] If you can get away with it anything goes. The only possible, (reasonable) combinations of these as I see it are: A3, A4, A5, A6 & A7 B5, B6, & B7 C7 D3,D5 & D7 E1, E2, E3, E4, E5, E6 & E7 F2 & F7 From this ( by observing how few people one pisses off) I conclude that: A’s only annoy those who think no one should live on the waterways. B’s in addition annoy those who think live-aboards should have a proper legal residential mooring. D’s in addition annoy those who think that CCing should not be an exception. E’s can’t lose, they don’t annoy anyone. F’s are on thin ice. C’s are in deep trouble. That just leaves the second of the two main issues, namely how one uses the waterways and that surely, doesn’t matter who you are, everyone can abuse visitor moorings, I doubt anyone would argue its OK to do so (except in special, reasonable circumstances) so on this issue at least, everyone is no doubt in agreement? Joshua ( Prospective D3 )

It must touch a primeval funny bone because there seems to be something inherently hilarious, watching some one ‘sailing’ off into the distance blissfully unaware that they are going in completely the wrong direction For 20 years I have been teaching people to fly and navigation by map reading is an important requirement of a pilots abilities. When I first started, it quickly became apparent that students were divided between those who map read with the map always ‘upright’ (North at the top) and those who tried to keep orientating the map to align with the track they thought they were on. There are advantages in not having to keep turning the map, so at first, I tried to force my students to keep the map ‘upright’. None of these students were able to adapt so, rather than make them go on suffering, I contacted the Royal Institute of Navigation to find out if they had a particular view about the subject. In a nut shell (it was 20 years ago), they said, people were naturally divided between those who had the good spacial awareness necessary to map read without turning the map and those who didn’t and the former may well have inherited it from a family naval tradition, bearing in mind that at sea, without any land marks, there would be nothing to orientate the map with. From that day on I let my students do what they were most comfortable with and they can thank the RIN for that! One other interesting thing I have learnt from my experiences as a flying instructor, is how easily people read from the map what they want it to show, rather than what it actually shows. The anecdote above about the lads immediately assuming their map was wrong because it only showed 4 locks when in fact they were faced with 5, reminds me of this. Thanks for the laugh! Joshua

An aside on another thread about ‘navigation errors’ sparked a curious thought ( 3 days of icy weather in front of a log fire, with too much wine and a successful experiment mixing Ovaltine with whisky, does that to you) and I wondered, is it actually possible to get lost on the inland waterways and if so has anyone managed it? As an aviator I can confirm that it is very easy to get ‘lost’ when moving at an unstoppable 100mph in unbounded 3 dimensional space but surely not when crawling along in a confined narrow channel? Aviators, by the way, never actually get lost, merely ‘temporarily unsure of their position’. Joshua

Having spent the second half of my childhood (late 60’s) ‘growing up’ near Bristol and having worked and lived in Bristol, I recall how the Avon and Kennet was, together with Concord and the SS Great Britain, things that ‘belonged to us’, things that locally, we were proud of. It was regular walks with my dogs along the developing canal in those days that first sparked a personal dream to one day live on the canal system. Ironically, it was the lack of availability of legal residential moorings that derailed those plans, as a solicitor I couldn’t afford to be seen to be flouting the law. Now, finally, too many years later, I can fulfil my dreams within the current legal structure of the system by CCing. This thread, therefore, is of great interest to me for lots of reasons. I suspect (from everything else you have said) that you may have meant to say that it shouldn’t be about money rather than it isn’t about money. I am weary of seeing over demand problems like this solved by financially squeezing the demand until it fits the supply. I once lived in Tunbridge Wells where the council, to solve a lack of town parking spaces simply kept putting the parking fees up until the demand matched the supply, it worked fine, if you were one of those who could afford it. Then they used all that money to build a nice big shopping centre and completely killed off the interesting ‘living breathing ’ heart of the town. I don’t think an argument based on who brings in the most revenue, is in this case, in the long term interests of the waterways. Given that it was wealthy capitalists who founded the waterways, poor working class people who worked them, capitalists who tried to kill them off (the canals ) and a bunch of enthusiastic radicals who saved them, I don’t think anyone has a morally better right to use them than anyone else. It would be nice to think that an alternative solution could be found, not just the easiest. Actually, given that we are talking about West country folk, I know there wont be an easy solution. Long ago I worked as a litigation solicitor in Bristol ( I sharpened my advocacy skills defending Glastonbury festival urchins ) and it is my experience that the locals don’t like to be told how to live and think, one could, for example, always guarantee an acquittal from a Bristol jury whenever a ‘hanging’ judge tried to tell them they really had no option but to find the defendant guilty! Joshua

That’s smart, I have made a note, if I do end up having a boat built I will investigate the possibility of having oil lamp fittings and vents strategically planned. Joshua

This layout layout link (bedroom in the middle) seems to be a way of having your cake and eating it? So long as one provides good facilities to eat in the kitchen (avoid having to march up and down the boat between kitchen and eating area) this seems ideal, but I am guessing there is good reason why one doesnt see it more often? By the way, this boat has an obviously very low gunwale, what is the thinking/history behind this or it simply a styling preference of the builder? Joshua

Why exactly do paraffin lamps produce condensation, is it because certain fuels like gas and paraffin release inherent moisture into the air when burnt? Do candles behave the same? Joshua

Thank you for the link, they look great. My initial thoughts about gas/oil lighting was to limit the inconvenience of constant engine runs to charge batteries but like you, I also had a notion that the softness and movement of the light would enhance the ambience of life on board. My interest is whetted again, I wont discount it just yet. Joshua

Yes that sounds fine so long as you can still ‘use’ the top and still easily clean it. As a matter of fact does the cabin top ever get used for anything other than pot plants, painted buckets and mooring ropes? I am discounting the obvious use, by some I have seen, as a surrogate garage, i.e. to store bikes, firewood, prams etc. In a typical days cruising, is the top ever used for jumping onto from lock sides, off onto ‘things’ or walked down for convenience ? It would be very smart if the whole top could be built with one huge ‘implanted’ solar panel and covered with a hard wearing surface that one could walk on, is that possible? Joshua

Many thanks all, for your advice, it would appear the idea is a non starter, probably on BSS requirements alone. I will pursue the LED avenue, it looks increasingly likely that I will have a boat built rather than buy second hand and I imagine the boat builders are by now starting to fit LED lighting systems as standard. As to solar panels, I have to wait until I get the chance to see some boats with panels fitted. At the moment, I can’t imagine how they can be fitted to a narrow boat without seriously harming its aesthetics. On a modern house they can be sympathetically designed in to look as if they were meant to be there, but on a narrow boat, the peacock of the boating world, don’t they look completely out of place? Joshua

Thank you for that. Are the fragile mantles (I remember them well from my camping days) the only option? What was used in Victorian households and street lamps, before the advent of electricity? It wouldn’t, I suppose, be difficult to arrange special lighting just for reading but to be honest, I have got to the age where no artificial lighting, electric of otherwise, is much good for reading ! Do you find it a relatively economic way to illuminate the boat? Joshua

Sorry for the repetition of this question, I thought it might get overlooked tucked away in my enquiries about basic electrics. Does anyone have experience lighting a boat using either gas, paraffin or any other, none electrical, fuel? If so, what are the pro’s and cons? Joshua

Another thought ... If you are using desktop computers should you be thinking of giving them an Uninterruptible Power Supply in case you overload the boat system and the boat power trips? As far as I know a UPS would not contribute to your battery capacity, it would just allow a few minutes for an orderly shut down of the computers rather than a crash. Absolutely, it is already on my list but thank you for reminding me. I will rely on a single desktop to reduce my power needs, I will just have to learn to be patient or perhaps multi task, I could for instance learn to do ‘housework’ whilst waiting for the computer to finish its tasks! My thoughts about gas lighting were prompted by a notion to reduce the number of appliances competing for electricity, does anyone have experience of using this type of lighting or paraffin as suggested by mykaskin. I like the thought but have concerns about; any added condensation they might create; given the low head room, heat damage to the Deckhead; and perhaps noxious fumes in the relative confines of a NB? Joshua