nicknorman
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Posts posted by nicknorman
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Just now, dmr said:
Yes, and I assume it comes on when the ignition comes on and goes out when the engine starts (alternator starts), just like a standard ignition light, but also flashes error codes. I could try to create an error code tomorrow.
Just maybe my "diode trio" supply is upsetting it but thats unlikely.
The feature-in is purple, the lamp output is purple with a pink trace, maybe there is a harness building error?
Is the light staying on or off?
My reg chip has a few error codes that are reported back to the micro, one being "mechanical failure" ie the thing is not going round (fast enough) and one for overtemp (of the reg chip) and one for electrical failure (which I think is a disconnect in the field circuit). But I just used the "mechanical failure" one to switch on the warning light. The Zeus probably follows a similar logic.
If I may say so, just like when one switches from LA to Li, it is hard to shed the LA mindset and switch to the Li mindset, when you switch from a 9 diode internally regulated alternator, to a 6 diode externally regulated alternator (which is what you have done) there is some mindset shedding and switching to be done! Think 6 diode!
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You should just set the "Feature out" to "Warning Lamp" which I think is the default anyway.
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4 minutes ago, cheesegas said:
Have you changed where the other side of the lamp connects to? A standard alternator install will have one side of the lamp connected to positive and the other goes to the alternator which acts as a current sink when the engine is off. However, the Zeus is a current source, not sink; you'll need to connect one side of the lamp to negative and the other to the Zeus.
That is not my reading of the manual. It says
The feature output lamp that can be configured in the app. This
output acts like a switch between your load (light or fan) and the internal ground in the Smart
Regulator. It can switch uo to 48V at 1 Amo.So I read that it's a switch to 0v. Other side of light should be to +12v, probably the IGN switch so it is off then the IGN is off.
9 minutes ago, dmr said:Ive already connected the Zeus output1 to the old Adverc light which is functionally identical to the ignition light (same positive feed). This is not currently working and I can't work out why not, but thats a separate issue. There are software options as to what the light does but I've tried the two obvious choices.
Maybe it is not working just because the reg isn't wired up correctly at the moment?
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57 minutes ago, blackrose said:
I don't know why anyone would start a genny for toast, that was my point. But I don't have a gas grill on my boat, just separate oven and hob, so without an inverter I'd have to start the generator for toast.
Anyway, you mentioned using a generator to run power tools, so assuming the particular tool is corded and you just needed to use it for a minute, without an inverter you'd have to start the genny for that, so it's the same thing.
As a couple of people said earlier, nobody is forced to use their inverter, but it's better to have one than not to.
This comment was posted in reply to my post, but I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't aimed at me otherwise you would be making yourself look very foolish.
I've lived aboard for 22 years on two different boats including 3 years of CCing, so I have experienced a few winters onboard. 😌
But with a reasonable system of solar and batteries and especially in the summer, there is no reason not to use a toaster. They are typically 800w which will take about 80A. But only for about 2 or 3 minutes. If we say 3 minutes, that is 4Ah. Not exactly going to break the bank!
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While you are at it, connect the panel warning light wire that was on D+, to the Zeus "Output 1". Then the alternator warning light will work as normal, plus some fault code blinking.
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29 minutes ago, dmr said:
In N mode the Zeus takes the field wire from the bottom brush and "connects" it to ground via its internal (lower) transistor, it has no means to supply current to the top brush so this must come from the diode trio or ignition light?
In P mode the Zeus uses its (top) transistor to supply the top brush, with the bottom brush grounded and so the Zeus has full control over the current?????
Ahh I see what you are saying....in an N install, and unlike the Adverc, I should connect the top brush directly to the main supply, in effect joining B+ to D.
I don't like that idea but not sure why not, I think going for a P scheme is better.
I’m going to go upstairs and check on the big screen computer, but this sounds wrong to me. I would expect the field circuit to be: from B+ direct to the brush. From the other brush via the regulator to ground. The D+ and field diodes are not used. It becomes a 6 diode machine. The alternator warning light would be operated by the regulator.
Just now, dmr said:I think you are correct that Arco intend the N system to have a live feed added to the top brush, this will explain why they suggest putting a fuse in the field wire, I have been puzzling over that. However unless some physical layout of the alternator internals makes a P install difficult I can see no advantage at all in an N install with a live feed to the rotor, and the P arrangement becomes the obvious way to go.
I certainly have a P type circuit on my setup, the other brush connected to ground. But I would still fuse the wire from the B+ to the regulator.I don’t think it makes much odds whether you use P or N. In my case, the reg chip was P only and one brush was already connected to case so it was a no-brainer.
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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:
It won't have 12V on it if unless the cable is disconnected and the voltage measured at the end of the cable, not the D+ terminal.
With the cable still connected the bulb/LED + resistor form a voltage divider with the rotor with the rotor having far less resistance, so the voltage at the CONNECTED D+ terminal will be far lower then 12V, but I have never measured it - easier to dab the cable to negative and watch the bulb.
My point is that if there is +12v on the D+ terminal, it means there is no circuit through the rotor, typically because the brushes are not connecting. If everything is working then the voltage would be around 1v, but then the light would be on. Which it isn’t.
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Yes surely the device becomes a “6 diode machine” with the field current supplied from the B+ terminal, ie direct from the battery until the alternator is spinning and making its own juice.
I would definitely have the w connected, otherwise the controller doesn’t know the speed. You want it to know the speed so you can have reduced max field current at low rpm, but allow max field current at high rpm (reduced if it gets too hot, of course).
Are you sure you have wired it correctly?
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58 minutes ago, MtB said:
Fried beef and Yorkshire pudding. DELICIOUS!
Hmmm, you have never used an air fryer, have you?! -
4 minutes ago, MtB said:
How on earth will you cook a Sunday roast with all the trimmings, with no oven?!!
Air fryer.
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20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
Watch out, @nicknorman will be along to call you a Luddite because you don't need, or want, all the fripperies of a floating cottage. I agree with you. Especially the implication of getting solar before an inverter.
Luddite!
Just joking, but I think one should perhaps bear in mind the question being asked "which model of inverter do I need" rather than a different question "do I need an inverter at all". The answer to the latter question is of course no. We spent 20 years borrowing a friend's boat to go boating for a 2 week holiday every year. It didn't have an inverter.
But, these days lots of people do have an inverter. Times move on! And if you have an inverter, there is of course no complusion to turn it on! It is helpful to answer the question asked rather than answering a question not asked.
On Mike (Blackrose's) point, having a good inverter and a mains fridge is a perfectly valid alternative to a 12v fridge. The 12v fridges around at the moment seem to be very low budget (and hence low efficiency) mains fridges that have had a 12v compressor added. So if you look at the overall efficiency of a 24/7 quality inverter and a modern high efficiency mains fridge, vs a 12v fridge, there is not much in it and with the former you have the advantage of always-on mains power in the boat.
22 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:I'm not saying Nick's wrong, it's just that I think a newish boater would do better by going down the simple route. Nick's set up is, I'm sure very impressive, but it's also complex and requires considerable understanding to use it in the best way. It's also very expensive, and I'm not sure a cost-benefit analysis would support the necessary investment.
Well yes but we had an always-on inverter right from the start, when we had ordinary Lead Acid batteries.
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The Beta 43 at least, has a relay behind the panel. The ignition switch etc is powered from the starter battery. When it is turned on, it energises the relay which connects the leisure battery + to the alternator D+, via the warning light (and a resistor in parallel). So as a first step I would check that the relay is working properly and connecting the leisure battery + to the warning light when the ign is switched on. If not check the other side of the relay. If no +12v, could be an issue with the multi-way plug because the leisure battery + connection is via the domestic alternator B+ and up through the multi-way connector to the panel.
Presumably the leisure battery isolator switch is on and working properly?
Other causes for this issue is basically something else in the circuit from the leisure battery + to the alternator D+ via the relay, the bulb and resistor, the multiway connector and the D+ terminal, or a faulty alternator
For fault finding I would start with the easiest things to reach. Having checked for 12v on the warning light, you could move to the D+ terminal on the alternator - if it has +12v on it when the ign is on, the alternator is faulty (brushes worn out etc) but if it is 0v then it is likely the mutli-way connector in the wiring loom.
So just to clarify (because the above is a bit waffly!) and summarise your question "how is the alternator charge circuit arranged":
There is a thinish green/yellow stripe wire from domestic alternator B+ on the engine, via the wiring loom and multiway connector, to a relay behind the panel, to the warning light, back down the wiring loom via the multiway connector as a blue/yellow stripe wire, to the domestic alternator D+. The relay is activated by current from the starter battery when the ignition is switched on.
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22 minutes ago, Annie cariad said:
Big thanks to the Hatton Vlockies for their assistance today as we climbed the flight in the rain .Good start to our 8month summer cruise.
Didn't anyone tell you it's not summer yet?
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Blimey the luddites have got in first while I wasn't looking! I would get a Victron inverter, they seem to be the best bet at the moment. In terms of what size, you need to look at the most powerful device you plan to use. For example a toaster is probably under 1000 watts, whereas an electric kettle is more likely 2000 to 3000 watts. If you are looking at something with a motor, be aware that the initial surge of power required to start the motor, can be a lot more than the continuous power consumption. Sometimes as much as 5 or 10 times as much!
You do have to be careful about how much power you take out of the batteries, and all the power you take out has to be put back, but as well as looking at the power consumption you also should look at the duration that device will be on. So for example a toaster, although using a fair bit of power, is only on for a couple of minutes, so the amphours taken from the battery is not that much. Same for the kettle, although the amphours will be more because it takes twice as much power and is probably on for longer. One solution to this is to only use these "thirsty" devices when the engine is running (and running a bit above idle). So it is fine to use the kettle while you are cruising, not a good idea to use the kettle in the evening when you are moored.
The other thing is that with all this ability to use lots of power, it becomes more important to keep track of the state of charge of the batteries and to make sure they get fully charged regularly, otherwise you can kill them in a few months. I would recommend getting some sort of battery monitor fitted eg a BMV712 or a Smartgauge.
Once you have the inverter and it is wired to the batteries with short fat cables, you will need to work out how to connect it to your boat's mains sockets etc. The rules are that you must not be able to have the inverter and the shore power connected at the same time, and the short socket must not be live when the inverter is on. So you need a mains changeover switch that is "break before make" ie when you move the switch, it disconnects the one source before connecting the other source.
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8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:
We were weighed before flying out to Offshore platforms as was all baggage
And then you were weighed before flying back home again just to check how much weight you had put on whilst offshore!
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10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:
I did wonder, but I have never seen a drawing and that was the best I could find while googling 6 diode alternator
The 6 diode machine just has the 6 main rectifier diodes. There is no internal supply for the field current, which is derived from the B+ terminal either from the battery (before and during start) or from the rectified alternator output (during normal running). All controlled by some electronics that switch off the field current completely and sends the circuitry to sleep when the IGN doesn’t have 12v. And when it does have 12v (ignition on) it sends field current and grounds the warning light circuit. Once the alternator is spinning fast enough it extinguishes the warning light. Voltage regulation depends on the voltage at B+ modified a bit by voltage on the IGN wire - hence the battery sensed bit.
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19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
Fair enough, I have never seen am internal circuit diagram for a six diode machine. Sir N was not very forthcoming when I asked him about it. Whatever happens it needs the Ign feed to allow it to excite.
My presumption is based on the description in the manual - leisure (9 diode) alternator is described as “machine sensed” whereas the engine alternator (6 diode) is described as “battery sensed”. Battery sensed via the IGN wire. So if the rather thin IGN a wire is to be used to measure battery voltage, you certainly wouldn’t want 4A or so of field current running from engine battery via ignition switch via fuse via thin wire back down to the engine. You would want the current in that wire to be minimal so there wasn’t any voltage drop. -
1 hour ago, dave mackie said:
Both alternators are basic stand alone systems. There's no relays. One lower amperage for starter battery and a higher amperage for the domestic batteries. The domestic side is working perfectly so I'm sure there's no relays used between the starting and domestic charging systems . I'll get the alternator removed and checked and while it's removed it will give me better access to the distribution block wiring for the charging/starter motor .
Actually there is a small relay within the instrument panel. It is activated when the ignition is turned on, and connects the leisure battery + to the leisure alternator D+. But this is not relevant to your problem.
4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:Sorry, not if it is a six diode machine as Nn suggested, but true for a 9 diode machine.
For a six diode alternator. There is an extra Ign terminal that is fed from the ignition on position on the ignition switch. There is a warning lamp terminal that seems to be similar to the D+ on a 9 diode machine except it is "earthed" by an electronic switch in the alternator. This switch is on when there is voltage eon the IGN terminal. As far as I can see it is the Ign terminal that excites the alternator.
No I don’t think the field current doesn’t come from the IGN terminal, I’m pretty sure it comes from the B+. The IGN is just a “logic input”. I think! -
46 minutes ago, dmr said:
Haven't been on a bus for years....except for a quick trip from Stourport to Bewdley in the summer, the bus driver was having a bad day and scared the life out of me, its safer to travel by boat.
Its very tempting just to buy a 500+ Ah lithium with CANbus and drop it into the batterey box but it does not use the space well....though the wasted space could take some 56lb weights to restore the trim. However if I made my own system from EVE cells or similar (plus BMS) I could just about squash in 1200Ah 😀and configure it as two batteries to get some redundancy. I am thinking about this, its not urgent, but if I do go the DIY route will be seeking advice from you.
It’s a sign of the times that you can get 1200ah of Li cells from the same place I got mine, for the same price as I paid for 600Ah 2 or 3 years ago - around £1600. But 1200 Ah - that will take a lot of charging! Why not though!
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1 hour ago, dmr said:
No, we are a low tech sort of boat so no bus systems, though am likely to be going that way before too long. Currently have Trojans but plan is to get some sort of lithiums that can talk to the Zeus on CANbus. Another option is to use the Victron BMV or the Zeus amp-hour counter to control "allow to charge" but I think CANbus is the way to go.
I'm sure I saw you on a bus the other day?
Rather than buying some "closed source" "drop in" Li batteries, I suggest it might be better to get some bare cells and add a commercial BMS such as JBD or Overkill. Then you have full control. Depending on your usage it might be better not to use FET based switching in the "emergency disconnect" switch, you can use eg a bistable relay like the Tyco BDS-A which obviously has a better ability to cope with large current surges than a FET based system - if you can find a BMS that drives it correctly (pulse on, pulse off).
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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
Agree, but still can't see how jumping from the domestic bank allows it to energise and run. I await with interest to see how this develops.
Yes that bit is a puzzle. I’m not clear if this was a one off thing, or a routine finding. If the former, perhaps it was just that eg worn brushes decided they would connect with the slightly higher system voltage. But if it is repeatable then yes it is definitely a puzzle. But still, if the voltages present on the alternator terminals are correct, it should charge, and if it doesn’t that points to a faulty alternator. -
13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
On 9 diode machines, as I think the Beta alternators are, that would result in no charge and no warning lamp. In effect, the warning lamp earths through the brushes.
I don't know how it fits the symptoms, but if the circuit between engine battery positive and the warning light goes resistive, then the alternator will back feed the instruments via the warning amp which would be on, but the battery would be charging. I don't think this can be the case here, but I do think a voltage check before and after staring across the engine battery would be a good idea - and tell us the result.
If there is one warning lamp, or two warning lamps but no relay, then diagnosis in far more complicated.
The Beta 43 has been around for a while so it’s hard to be categoric, but for recent ones with twin alternators, the starter alternator is a 6 diode machine. It certainly is on our 2010 engine.So there is an “IGN” wire that wakes the alternator up when 12v is applied, and a separate warning light wire. The field current is initially obtained from the B+ wire.
So it with the warning light being on, this suggests that both that wire and the IGN wire and the B+ are all connected, pointing to an internal alternator fault (intermittent, eg worn brushed).
Before removing the alternator I would check voltages on the alternator terminals with ignition switched on, should be 12v on B+ (fat wire) and IGN (brown wire), and 0v on warning light wire (brown/yellow). If that is all satisfactory I can’t see another explanation other than a faulty alternator-
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31 minutes ago, dmr said:
I do need to work out where those amp-hours go. The fridge is 14 years old now so pobably not the best. The router is always on, as are a few LED fairy lights but thats all only milli-amps. My laptop is on most of the time but its efficient. I suspect my wifes very old Macbook is a factor but whenever I measure it I don't find a problem. We don't use the inverter much at all, the washing machine runs of the TravelPower when the engine runs.
I've only had the ability to count amp-hours for a few weeks so have not done a really good study yet.
A couple of years ago I noticed our (Shoreline compressor) fridge was running most of the time, even when the ambient temperature was average. I put an hour counter on it, discovered it was running about 70% of the time.
In the end I got a gas kit from Amazon and added some “compatible” gas though not the original gas. Net result it now doesn’t run most of the time. I guess more like 25% of the time. So that might be one option, I think it cost around £50. Which is a lot less than a new fridge!
Also we do have RGB LED tape running under the gunnels through the open plan saloon/dinette/galley which uses a surprising amount of juice, around 5A.
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I tried to send this by PM but I got the system response “IanD cannot receive messages”. Presumably there is an option to turn off receiving PMs which you have selected. So I’ll have to make it public. This is what I said in my PM:
On the one hand you seem quite intelligent and knowledgeable. But on the other hand, sometimes incredibly childish. “Pot, kettle etc” is just so playground along with a total inability to recognise your own behaviour.
I am going to stop interacting with you because you turn everything into an argument, even when we basically agree. Which is a shame because we both share a lot of knowledge and expertise and could have some interesting discussions. But I really can’t be bothered with the petty playground bickering. So you win, I’m out.
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Arco Zeus regulator - first impressions and a look inside
in Boat Equipment
Posted · Edited by nicknorman
It may need the W wire connecting to make everything work properly - otherwise it can’t know how fast the alternator is spinning - or if it’s spinning at all! Can’t remember if you have already connected it?
“Actually its correct....its assuming the field circuit is open circuit so not lighting up, just like a conventional alternator system.” NO NO NO!!! You are still thinking 9 diode machine. Wash your mouth out! Think 6 diodes!