Derek R.
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Posts posted by Derek R.
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Damn my dixslexia! 'Enquires' Doh!
Roger
Double damn - Dyslexia, though not curable by use of a dictionary
I too suffer from finger trouble, but use the software to catch most mistakes.
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Tell me that ISN'T Charlie Atkins on Mendip?
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With regard to hatches, I recently had a reply from a Rodney Clapson. I asked if I could paste his comments here, but have not yet received a reply, but do so anyway and ask if he reads this to accept my apologies for being an impatient bugger!
"Dear Sir, Your e-mail about the design of hatches on keels and sloops has done the rounds and finally
landed on my computer. I had 60 years working in and then running a shipyard at Barton on Humber
where sloops and keels were built (before me) and where we carried out repairs.
There were, as you say, two types of hatches. The rounded ones, called "carlin hatches" had wood,
then later, metal T-bar carlins bent to shape and covered with wood boards. These were very often,
but not always,used on sloops. I expect that they were stronger than flat hatches when sailing at sea,
though having said that I think that all Thames barges had flat hatches. When carlin hatches were
fitted it meant that the area of opened hatchway could be varied depending on the cargo and the weather.
The flat hatches, called "lighter hatches" were flat boards laid from the coaming to a strong wood beam
called a fore-and-after. Again, these hatches could be partly removed easily to open up that hatchway.
The for-and-afters (usually about 3 in number, but obviously depending on the length of the hold) sat in
turn on loose beams across the hatchway, and these were removed to give full access to the hold.
The lighter hatches got their name as they were always used on lighters (vessels with the same design
hull as sloops and keels, but without mast and sails, towed with a motor vessel - steam tug or packet)
There was no hard and fast rule about which hatch was used on sloops or keels. For example I have many
photographs of sloops (including new launches) where a sloop has lighter hatches and of keels which
have carlin hatches. Generally though, looking through my photographs there were many more sloops and
keels with carlin hatches than with lighter hatches. The only thing that you can definitely say is that
lighter hatches were always used on lighters.
Daybreak now has a steel top over the hatchway, but the shape of the headledges at the fore and aft
end of the hold show that she had carlin hatches originally. She was built as a keel for Hanleys of Doncaster
and was never rigged as anything other than a keel. I have been down to Daybreak often, sailing with
Tony and Sally, I've been upstream as far as Oxford and downstream as far as Faversham. It's good sailing
down there, without the fast-running tides that we get up here on the Humber, although my own boat
(a 25ft Dutch-built steel sloop - 1961 vintage) stays over in Holland on the Veersemeer so I have no
worry with tides there!
I find it very interesting finding many ex-Humber vessels on the Thames,converted into houseboats although
nowadays as you will know, there are many more Tjalks and Klippers on the Thames than Humber keels and sloops.
I hope this has answered your questions, if anything else crops up,
don't hesitate to get back to me."
Rodney Clapson
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Town Class boats dwarf nearly everything, except Royalty.
Some had a wooden chine plank, as well as bottoms.
Like Usk it's not what height they should be but what height looks best. By copying another 5 planker, I think I got it right.
This one looks terrible and woud be better as a cabin conversion, considering it's tiny gunwale height..
You mean size matters?
'Rooster' - looks like something's sitting high on a fence. The workmanship might be good, but a designer 'slot' to live in? Rather be in a shoe box than a letter box. Sorry if it hurts someone, but there are some folk who should just stay away from boats. Imaginative? Creative? How about stupid waste of time and skill.
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The legging or the double posting?
The legging, we decided Gosty Hill was an ideal opportunity to try legging without delaying or otherwise incurring the wroth of other users/officialdom. What other narrow tunnels are that and infrequented? I'll add them to my list of things to do on a wet afternoon.....
The double post cold have been sleep deprivation, look at the time it/they were posted.....
I did notice the time! Hope you had a good evening, and the required amount of beverage!
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IIRC I heard the same. I seem to remember you can tell the brickwork is newer in the high bit.
Last visit we legged Union Canal Carriers 'Great Britain' through for the hell of it.....
IIRC I heard the same. I seem to remember you can tell the brickwork is newer in the high bit.
Last visit we legged Union Canal Carriers 'Great Britain' through for the hell of it.....
Was that one glass or two Neil?
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Did you know croda hydrocarbons in Knottingley? Not far from John Harkers. When I was little, whenever Harkers launched a boat, my primary school would be taken to watch the launch from the opposite bank. We'd invariably get soaked through.
Sounds like a fifties education program - sadism. Did the teachers stand back on higher ground? Mine would have.
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Our son, Tim Hutchinson, is a children's book illustrator. This is Sam the Narrowboatman attempting to start a Seffle. You'll note that Sam has adapted his blowlamp to run on gas. Also he finds it easier if he has help from a second pair of hands/paws to squirt diesel into the engine as the flywheel is being kicked over.
Excellent! Almost Simpson like - do tell us the book title(s).
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Here's a sweet one: http://tinyurl.com/9qvb8bI recognise the boatyard in the Oudehaven in Rotterdam in the video of removing an old engine on that url too.
What were you using to preheat the Blowlamp on that Seffle? It doesn't look like a meths flame, much too cool for a good preheat so no wonder it was difficult. I think most people remove the gas blowlamp at inspection time, but I never had the luxury of any gas on board so always had to use paraffin to warm up the Bolinder. Usually started OK, but almost never on first kick! It was possible to get it too hot though.
Lots of interesting engines on You Tube. Typical of the Dutch to heave out the old for something new, though almost contrarily, they have some excellent old vehicle/engine/boat meets. I don't know Koukouvagia (and he's not in Wikipedia
) but lighting Tilleys and Primuses (Primii ?) which I frequently do, I have no trouble if a correct sequence is followed. In an engine 'ole with both doors open (obviously for max light) draught is the enemy, along with some excess paraffin in the wrong place at the wrong time. Make good flame throwers do blow lamps. Most of the video clips seen lighting big continental semi-diesel engines in boats use gas. One Norwegian Rubb is pre-heated from a cylinder lain on the deck - reached through an open port to turn on. Needless to say, one has to be particular about fittings and working practices for safety. Also the names of fuels in different countries. Petrole in France and elsewhere in Europe is our Paraffin, elsewhere it's Kerosene. There's a good website with fuel names World wide here: http://fuel.papo-art.com/ The editors notes are worth reading. Now I'm rambling again . . . reaches for tablets . .
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I've just worked out how to transfer all my old videos to a digital format. This one was taken in 1997 before I fitted the Kelvin. The commentary, BTW, in the background is by LEO.
I'd forgotten just how much smoke it emitted. At the end of a day's boating there'd be white rings on my face where my glasses had been
Also I used to find lighting the blowlamp much more difficult than firing up the engine.
Here's a sweet one: http://tinyurl.com/9qvb8b
[/b]I Believe Parry II used to be Seffle powered.
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I've always been a bit puzzled by that one. What do you need large amounts of coal for at a sewage treatment works ? I can't remember other sewage treatment works having coal stockpiles, so was there something special about that one ?
Pumping power. Possibly by steam, or maybe they had a converter to produce coal gas for gas engines, but likely either power to operate pumps directly or produce their own electricity to do same. Haven't found anything definitive on the 'net so far. Interesting subject in itself.
Edit: There may be more value in Leo's reply.
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Ok looking for some advice and or knowledge on this one, Jason of Jasons trip which boat is she? Portugal or France or A.N.Other??
Anyone know?
Merry Xmas fellow anoraks
About France or Portugal ask Tim Higton, I believe he's had one or the other or 'it'. Seem to recall discussion on Jason's Trip boats a while back, I very much doubt the present trip boat under that name is 101yrs old, though the original if extant might be.
There are a few on here who have worked trip boats in London (not me).
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Well the hatch shape theory is blown away. A mail from the HKSPS secretary suggests this is not an indication of rig:
Dear Derek, I will check with others who may know more than me but I think the type of hatch covers were just the preference of the skipper or owner who had the Keel or Sloop built. The two types of hatch boards used, the curved boards on our Sloop "Amy Howson" are full width and need two men to move them whilst the smaller boards on the Keel "Comrade" can be moved by one man. The one thing that may throw water on Tony,s theory is that when "Amy Howson" was built in 1914 she was named "Sophia" and was rigged as a Keel until 1916. Seasons greetings from the misty Humber. Keith Sivertsen sec HKSPS
So that buries that one.
Best for Christmas - Derek
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My first viewing of your pics suggested that both vessels had curved hatch boards, looking again I see it's not so clear. Presumably then Reliance has or had ridge boards?
Tim
Yes Tim, they were flat, rising to meet at the ridge. I haven't found any other reference to one or other type being defined as a Keel or a Sloop as defined by their hatch arrangement so far, so it may be a case of Chinese whispers. I've mailed the Humber Keel & Sloop preservation soc. they may be able to say if it's coincidence, nonsense, or otherwise. It may be the generic term is Keel, but with fore and aft rig they become Sloops.
All little things sent to tease us.
A little aside; the hatch boards we had on the Dutchman could be stood on their edges along the top of the coming and connected with vertically mounted steel flanges that slotted over the coming edge, thus increasing the height of the coming by a good three feet. It took me ages of head scratching to discover what these strange lumps of metal in the lockers were!! Seems they may have been used when carrying light bulky cargo - big bales perhaps.
Derek
There was one difference related to the rigging, though it was of more importance on wooden boats. Keels had a removable knighthead whilst sloops just had an extended stem post to which the forestay for the mast was fixed. It is always difficult to find a definitive variation as keels were converted to sloops and vice versa. Knightheads were also fitted on some L&LC craft until around 1900, showing their origins from coastal sailing craft. Regarding hatches, Edward Paget-Tomlinson makes no distinction in his Keel book, only mentioning that flat hatches were generally used on lighters.Now that sounds far more likely an account. Thanks for that.
Derek
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Your pictures do rather seem to contradict that thesis
It's certainly one I'd never heard before
Tim
(former part-owner of the 'keel' Beecliffe, which definitely always had curved ('Carling') hatch boards)
Contradict? Support surely. But being no expert, I shall ask the horse - back later.
Derek
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Pedant alert, as Mr Fincher might say. Which is the Keel and which is the Sloop?
I know they're mostly called Keels once the sailing gear has been removed, and the difference is more than sail rig.
http://www.humberships.org.uk/index.html
Oh! - and love the CA dormobile! Wonderful colours.
Not a lot in it, but Tony Woodward, who for years lived aboard Daybreak on the Thames (and still might) confidently told me that Sloops always had curved hatch covers and the Keels, square rigged, had two sets of sloping covers like Turog.
Reading Waterways Festival 1981. Sloop Daybreak, with Keel Reliance alongside:
Swopped places:
A bridge too low. Brentford High Street.
After some contemplation, we flooded the foc'sle bilge and recruited a dozen souls from the boatyard who all crammed into the foc'sle to get the fore end down a bit:
Under - by that much!
Golden moments: (They always are when it's someone else's boat)
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It would be great fun to sail one of those monsters
Book a trip with the Humber Keel and Sloop Preservation Society
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I spent a pleasant afternoon wandering round Waddingtons, on the S&SYN, on Saturday.
This one is "Heritage".
This one is interesting because the front end was built to replace the badly damaged bows of another, rivetted, keel but, by the time it was finished, the original boat had been plated up to a satisfactory condition, so Waddingtons built the back end (welded) to graft onto the bows. She's the only keel to be built, at Waddingtons.
Sadly the future looks bleak for the dumb keel, Turog, and she is likely to be cut up. Her Backcabin is completely intact, though (only had my phone so the pictures are pretty bad).
Pedant alert, as Mr Fincher might say. Which is the Keel and which is the Sloop?
I know they're mostly called Keels once the sailing gear has been removed, and the difference is more than sail rig.
http://www.humberships.org.uk/index.html
Oh! - and love the CA dormobile! Wonderful colours.
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Thanks for that Derek - It is amazing how, because a history is recent, we devalue it. Brilliant pictures.
Yes! If only as a child and into my youth I had taken the lens to everyday events and familiar places, what a treasure trove that would now be. Thank heaven there are the Laurence Hoggs and John Huntleys of this world who have made and sought to collect such data. It's always the same - regular exposure to the commonplace breeds complacency and contempt, then along comes redevelopment, replacement of the 'obsolete' and suddenly no-one can remember exactly what was where or how things were. Some will say 'Who cares', but I think most people do. It happens every day.
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Edited to say, what's this tosh? You can't use a small unpowered boat, but then you can't use power in your boat??? this I do not understand. A bit academic really as my inflatable will be registered as powered with BW when i drag her out of her locker next spring
You Must
Make sure your craft passes the clearance gauge.
Switch off your engine
Switch on your headlight
Make sure everybody stays inside the boat
Extinguish all naked flames except pilot lights
Everybody must wear a life jacket
You Must Not
Smoke
Use cooking appliances
Use small unpowered craft
Use your engine under any circumstances
BW speak perhaps. i.e. vague and inaccurate.
I believe you will find that by 'Small unpowered craft' they mean canoes and rowed boats. And in the case of Dudley tunnel, engines are not to be used. Boats must be electric powered, or towed by an electric powered boat. Contact Dudley Tunnel Trust (?) for details of passage. That's not gospel, but I'm sure greater knowledge will be along soon.
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These pictures are absolutely fascinating Tam & Di - thank you very much for sharing them.
The sequence of Anny which ends at Coxes Mill; where are the other shots taken. I usually recognise locations but cant quite get these. I am thinking the rail bridge might be the one just below Coxes Mill lock but it bears an uncanny resemblance to the bridge above Brentford Gauging locks. The top one is taken just below Shepperton Lock as you turn left heading for the Wey.
The Anny sequence are mine. You recognise that below Shepperton correctly, and the others are indeed just before Coxes Mill. The little Dutch bunker boat Gerarda Elizabeth is tied offside. This went on to become a service boat on the tidal Thames taking rubbish from the piers.
Derek
PS Shots taken 1981/2
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Pedant alert!
The "Midland Railway" has never gone anywhere near Euston!
I'll allow you "London Midland Region", "London Midland", "London Midland & Scottish Railway", or (arguably !), "Midland Region", depending on the era being discussed.
Amongst the pre-grouping railways that were amalgamated to form the London, Midland & Scottish Railway in 1923, the biggest were the "London and North Western Railway" which ran into Euston, and the "Midland Railway" that ran into St Pancras. These were competing operations up until that date.
People often get this wrong, but those who know anything about it know that the LNWR was by far the better railway, (it's one of those truths that my Dad taught me!).
Coh! Trust a train spotter! All of those titles contain the word Midland, and the bridge carries a railway, which goes through the Midland Shires, and Euston is but little more than a quarter of a mile from St Pancras which also sent trains off through the Midlands, so if it's a railway and it goes to the Midlands, it's a Midland railway - yah boo.
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Well, how interesting to see the finished video, albeit fifteen years after I saw it being filmed ! I was there at work in the London Waterbus Co office on the day that Bob Dylan and his entourage turned up at Camden Lock. I remember them walking over the roving bridge, and I thought they did some filming on the lock island, but since this isn't seen, perhaps they didn't after all.
I decided to try and get Dylan's autograph for a friend, so when they stopped filming I dashed out with a waterbus postcard and a biro in my hand. I had to run towards Camden High street as he had paid off the entourage and was now with just the film crew and heading down Camden High Street. They went into a cafe before I caught up and on the spur of the moment I carried on in and approached the man, now sitting at a table. I explained that my friend had grown up with his music and would be so pleased to have his autograph. I proffered the postcard and he duly signed it without a word. I thanked him and left. Wow, I thought, I've just met Bob Dylan !
There is an iterior shot in the video that appears to be taken inside the cafe, by a fireplace I think. The cafe was (is?) two shops made into one and would be 248 or 246 Camden High Street, ie next to Paddy Walker's Antique Shop as was.
As for the boat, well I think it may have been Dave Stewart's narrowboat, which he kept moored at Blomfield Road, near Maida Tunnel. I can't recall the name but it was certainly green and a rather boxy shape. One day we were operating the winter waterbus service with Water Buffalo when, approaching the tunnel, we were confronted by Dave Stewart on his boat right across the canal in front of us and apparently unable to move. It was clear to see from the propwash that his propeller was fouled so we tied up, I cleared the prop for him, and we both went on our way.
Steve
Excellent! He must be getting on a bit now - 65+? Dave Stewart I met (if you could call delivering him a package 'meeting') at his Church studio in Crouch Hill. Not much of a conversationalist, but then he was probably as busy as I was.
Derek
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Hi Derek,
Thought you might be interested in this thread.
http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...19078&st=10
Paul
Capricorn
COOL! Must have been in my late teens or early twenties when he hit the music world. I was never a great fan, only ever bought the Basement Tapes album and though little of it, but many others were great. I like 'Blood in my eyes' - hadn't heard that before.
I know that bit of Camden fairly well, it's all shot around a two hundred yard radius of Camden Lock. Some shots in a cafe (there are many) and on the boat - and lo - Tycho as well!! From the shots, it's clear that those from within the boat cabin are taken from the boat tied in front of Tycho. Nice bit of chequered oil cloth on the table. The bridge carries Oval Road across the cut to its terminus at the old interchange yard, and Pirates Castle is on the bridge. The bridge not quite visible beyond carries the Midland Railway in and out of Euston.
Nice one - thanks for that.
Best - Derek
PS I used to deliver to Jim Henson's in the old block beside where the boats are tied, and there's the chippie on the corner with Hawley Crescent.
Reality or Red Herring?
in History & Heritage
Posted
Is someone demonstrating the 'Thetford'?