MoominPapa

Even though the gears are in constant mesh, there's a clutch somewhere in the drive-line too. (That's why moving the gear-lever into "drive" doesn't make nasty noises.) On most boat gearbox designs, there are in fact two clutches, one for ahead and one for astern. My understanding is that these clutches are designed to slip under overload, to protect the rest of the system in the sort of event that you have experienced. Modern hydraulic boxes might even have clever bits in the hydraulic system to disengage the clutch if the output shaft stops, thus avoiding the possibility of burning out a clutch which is slipping under overload. That's a guess on my part, I've never taken one to bits.

The survey carries the name of the person who commissioned and paid for it. If you pay for the survey, you have a contract with the surveyor and if he misses something, you have some come-back. If you give or sell the survey to someone else, they have the information in the survey, but if that information turns out to be wrong, they _don't_ have any come-back against the surveyor. The relevant condition in the survey I have says: " This report, ... is intended for your sole use, or that of your advisers. Liability is not extended to any third party or subsequent holder. "

I don't know all the possibilities, but I can tell you what what happened when I had a survey done this week. You are right that the buyer pays for both the survey and the craning. The contract I signed with the broker has provisions for the vendor to pay my costs only in the case that the vendor withdraws; if I withdraw (because of the survey results or any other reason) I still have to pay, in fact I paid the surveyor direct. I'm expecting an invoice from the boatyard for the craning. Craning out (and putting back, same day) a 60ft boat will be about £280 which is probably expensive, as these things go. I had no real choice as I couldn't take the boat elsewhere. I had quotes from surveyors in the range £500-£600 for a full survey. I believe you can get just the hull surveyed. I was there whilst the survey was done, and about half the time was spent on the hull and half on the rest, (engine, electrics, gas etc) so I'd guess a hull-only survey would be very roughly half that figure. As to how to go about stuff, I took the long list of surveyors that the brokerage had, and called people until I found someone who charged a reasonable price, was available on the day the crane was due, and who I thought I could work with. Part of that was someone who didn't mind if I was there during the survey and was perpared to point stuff out to me "in the flesh". Once chosen, I told the brokers who I was using and they did the rest. I got a report by email the day after the survey, and a paper copy by post the day after that. The surveyor answered a couple of extra questions I had by email within an hour. I guess the only other wisdom I can give is to do as much homework as possible before getting a surveyor in, and agree a price for the boat. Don't expect to knock the vendors price down for small stuff after the survey, by the time you're £500-£1000 in, you have much less leverage to get the price down by threatening to walk away. On the other hand, if the surveyor points out several thousand pounds worth of work that needs doing, a report is a good bargaining tool (assuming you want to do that work, and not walk away.) Good Luck Simon.

OK, experts. Armed with all your good infomation, I went to see the boat today and have a test out. The "story" of the engine rings true to me. It appears to have been well looked after by an competant owner who knows what he's doing, or at least has learnt. I saw the engine start, from cold, on almost the first compression stoke straight to a slow idle. That's good. We did a few miles along the GU and a couple of locks, so I got to try the handling and see how the engine performed under load (very well, just a hint of black smoke from the exhaust, no misfire, a wonderful exhaust note). Oil pressure stayed steady at 32 PSI 'till hot idle, when it dropped to about 20. Inevitably the visit has raised some more questions so I hope I can get some more advice here. The owner said that when he rebuilt the heads, he had repaired the compression change-over valves, but after a year or so, they, had started to leak again, so they had been plugged permanently on the high compression setting. Is that legit, or is the engine beating itself to pieces running high compression all the time? The idle speed hunted a bit, much more so when cold, but a bit even when hot. Is that anything to worry about? One of the injection pumps was visibly leaking diesel. Performance wasn't affected, as far as I could see, but should I worry about oil dilution? The engine has a dry sump and huge oil tank, so there was a lot of lube oil to dilute. The Lister-Blackstone manual box was a bit noisy astern. Gear whine, not unhappy bearing noises. Is that reasonable? Neutral was difficult to find: small movements of the gear lever in either direction started the prop moving slowly. Is that sinister, or to be expected? Oh, and thanks, Mike, for the offer of a copy of the FR book, but the boat comes with a full set, so if I buy, I'll have all the information. Cheers, Simon.

Nah, it's the tail that does it. They see a tail dragging along behind, and suddenly they don't want to talk to you anymore.... That sounds more realistic. For interest, what's the role of the "compression change-over levers" show here? Are they a starting aid, like a decompressor, or something much more mysterious?

Thanks for the replies. To answer magnetman and Keeping Up, I'm not completely sure yet, since I'm just going from the brokerage details, but the photo of the engine clearly shows what can only be hand-start gear at cylinder-head height. Does that make it an FR2M for sure? I can just make out the nose of a pre-engaged starter by the side of the flywheel, so I'm fairly confident it has electric start. The installation is skin cooled, but the engine is a lot older than the boat so that says nothing about how the engine was cooled earlier in its life. Are most brokerages happy to let punters take a boat for a run? That's not been my experience so far, but maybe I looked too much like a tyre-kicker. Looks like it's time to arrange a visit......

Hello all. I've had great fun and learned lots reading the archives of this wonderful forum. Now have a question of my own. I'm currently in the market for a narrowboat and a candidate has come up which is a good fit for all the "must haves" and the "must not haves". The only thing is, it has a Lister FR2, in an engine room, with a manual gearbox and speed wheel. The existence of the engine room is fine: it's useful space, I like the idea of easy, warm, dry access to the motor and the rest of the layout is good. I'm just not sure about the lump. My experience is limited to hireboats with BMCs and PRM gearboxes. Is 18HP enough power for a 60ft boat on a river? Am I going to able to the thing in reverse quickly in an emergency? Will it stop once I do? Will MoominMama be able to get it in and out of gear? Then there's repairs and maintenance. How difficult are these engines to work on? Can I still get spares? At fifty years old there's been enough time to completely wear out even the most bullet-proof engineering, so how do I asses its current state? Will any surveyor be able to tell me sensible things about it, or should I look for a specialist? This may be a great buy, or it may be a disaster, I don't have the experience to judge. Can anyone help?