B2019
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Posts posted by B2019
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10 minutes ago, nicknorman said:
If it knocks against the side, you are either not using fenders or they are not placed correctly. We use ropes (lines) at around 45 degrees and generally that is quite adequate provided they are tight. If you want to go the whole hog and minimise any boat movement then yes, use 2 lines at roughly 90 degrees and 2 further lines (springs) at a flat angle to the boat. Can be done with just 2 stakes if the springs come back towards the boat.
I see. Yeah I don't use any fenders.
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My boat seems to move a lot when moored up especially when some boats go by too fast and it sometimes knocks against the side. I use two ropes at a 45 degree angle with mooring pins. Any ideas on how to reduce movement? Is using springs good idea?
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Hi boaters,
I've had a look at my shower and bilge pump and seen I've got no non return valve on the pipes. My bilge pump outlet is quite close to the water ( 8 inches) and just want to be on the safe side. Any recommendations of return valves to use and where to place them on the outlet pipes?
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3 hours ago, Tonka said:
What is the boat. I have done Limehouse to Teddington on the tidal Thames with only a 6.6 hp engine but it was only a 16ft grp cruiser
35 foot low stern narrowboat. Sabb GG engine.
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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:
It is not just HP, it depends on torque, prop size etc.
Lots of old working boat had small diesel engines and before that just "one-horse" power.
You have to learn to read the water, look at, and learn about tides, and 'boat' at the correct time for the conditions.
If you are really concerned (you needn't be) you could always do the "Day Skipper Tidal Waters" course.
Yeah this boat won't do tidal rivers. Not even going to attempt it. Had a little bit of wind the other day. Was on full speed to get it out of the uphill bit.
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Hi boaters,
Just had a couple of questions:
1. I've been looking at the canal map by CRT and the Open Canal map app. Are the little blue rivers on Open Canal mean they are navigable as they are not shown on the CRT map?
2. I've been told by many boaters and engineers not to take my boat on tidal rivers as the engine won't kick out enough hp ( 10bhp). I'm a bit nervous about suddenly coming across a tidal river. Any helps or tips on how to avoid them?
Thanks
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Hopefully we can remove this good awful directive once we leave the European Union? 126 pages ?. You could it up in a 10 page document max...
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20 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:
The point being, the OP has made several false and misleading statements about the scope of the RCD (about which the OP may not care) but this is a public forum and other people read it, and tend to believe incorrect assertions unless someone challenges them.
The statements by the B2019 that the RCD lasts only a year, and that the RCD says nothing about complying with BS EN ISO 10239:2008 - Small craft - Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) system have been demonstrated by Alan to be wrong, so to anyone reading this thread it is best to disregard any comments by B2019 about RCD.
I agree, however I've spoken to two surveyors who stated the RCD only applies to the boats first year on the water then the BSS is needed after that. I can only go by what they have said
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2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:
And if the boat is not covered by the RCD?
Well all my insurance states:
...... is constructed of fibreglass, aluminium or steel and does not exceed 80ft in length.
• The permanent home mooring of ......is in the United Kingdom.
• ...Will be maintained in a proper state of repair and seaworthiness, and in the case of trailers, roadworthiness, and will exercise due care anddiligence in safeguarding your boat and property.
• You possess a current Canal & River Trust or Environment Agency Licence, or the equivalent Licence from the local Navigation Authority as appropriate, and a current Boat Safety Certificate. In addition, if ........ is over 30 years old and over 23ft in length, you have in your possession a survey report not more than five years old from a qualified surveyor, with all recommendations complied with.It states nothing about an RCD or RCD compliance within the terms so it doesn't matter.
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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
It is your boat so anything you want goes.
If your gas -fitter signs it off to say it complies with the RCD requirements then obviously that condition is met and it will still be compliant.
(For information the relevant ISO standard that it will need signing off to is ISO 10239 "Small Craft Liquified Petroleum Gas Systems")
This is all the RCD says about gas systems:
5.5. Gas system
Gas systems for domestic use shall be of the vapour-withdrawal type and shall be designed and installed so as to avoid leaks and the risk of explosion and becapable of being tested for
leaks. Materials and components shall be suitable for the specific gas used to withstand the stresses and exposures found in the marine environment.
Each gas appliance intended by the manufacturer for the application for which it is used shall be so installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. Each gas-consuming
appliance must be supplied by a separate branch of the distributionsystem, and each appliance must be controlled by a separate closing device. Adequate ventilation must be
provided to prevent hazards from leaks and products of combustion.
All watercraft with a permanently installed gas system shall be fitted with an enclosure to contain all gas cylinders. The enclosure shall be separated from the living quarters, accessible only from the outside and ventilated to the outside so that any escaping gas drains overboard. In particular, any permanently installed gas system shall be tested after installation. -
3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
That is not correct.
The RCD is applicable for the full life of the boat.
If a boat is re-engine after (say) 20 years the engine must be RCD approved and the boat re-certified.
If the boat is (say) stripped out and re-fitted, which could affect the stability it must be re-certified.
I think you are getting confused with not needing to get a BSSC if you have an RCD.
There have been some changes for the rules applicable to craft that undergo a Major Craft Conversion, along with a better definition of what this actually means.
The definition of Major Craft Conversion:
‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this Directive.
The new responsibility in the Directive:
Article 19
3. Any person placing on the market or putting into service a propulsion engine or a watercraft after a major modification or conversion thereof, or any person changing the intended purpose of a watercraft not covered by this Directive in a way that it falls under its scope, shall apply the procedure referred to in Article 23 before placing the product on the market or putting it into service.
The Applicable conformity assessment procedure that must be carried out:
Article 23 - Post-construction assessment
Major Craft Conversion has now also been included in the scope of the directive:
Article 2- Scope
1. This Directive shall apply to the following products: (f) watercraft that are subject to major craft conversion.
What does this mean?
What this now means is that any CE marked vessel[1] that undergoes a Major Craft Conversion must undergo a post construction assessment before being placed back on the market or put into service (whichever is the earlier). The legal responsibility for this is placed on the person who is placing the vessel back on the market or putting it back into service after the works have been carried out.
Well I'm not actually changing anything that the previous owner had fitted at the point of sale. I'm just fixing things but making no major changes. At the point of sale it had an oven, gas bottle and connection so the I'm not legally liable if a new connection/ gas box is connected. The responsibility lies on the previous owner as long as I get the gas connection certified by a gas engineer. I've got loads of pictures of the boat on the day of sale to prove that I've not changed anything, just made it BSS compliant and as safe as possible.
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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:
Have to admit I don't know what FRP stands for, but I see it is an acceptable material to make or line a gas locker with, for BSS purposes.
It may not be RCD compliant though, if that matters to the OP.
The RCD is a really difficult area. When I bought the boat it was fitted with an old oven, gas bottle and container but it was not BSS compliant so it was removed. Now because it originally had a gas installation when I bought it would not constitute a major change and thus not effect the RCD. The RCD only applies to the first year the boat goes on water/ the first person whom puts the boat on the market. So with relevant BSS or gas engineer certificate all should be fine.
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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
There you go then.
Just make sure it is gas tight up to above valve level (and gas pipe level), AND, the overboard drain hole is of the correct size.
Perfect. I'm going to create the locker and get gas engineer to do fittings, I'm not touching that!
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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
If you read the BSS guidelines / rules it gives you chapter & verse about what they will accept (and won't accept)
It is section 7 you need to read - here is just a very small 'snippet' of the requirements
The sides of every cylinder locker must extend at least
up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher.
Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher, the bottom, sides, and seams of every cylinder
locker must be free of any:
• holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,
• cracks, splits or de‐laminations; or,
• missing or damaged welds at seams; or,
• other signs of damage or deterioration…
…. that can be determined by visual examination to
penetrate the locker to the interior of the vessel.
Cylinder locker bottoms, sides and seams covered by
this check must not rely upon glue or sealant to
prevent any leaked LPG from entering the interior of
the vessel.I see...
I've just looked at BSS guidelines.. I could create a wooden box with FRP lining. Wood will be drilled into but covered with FRP inside so you can't even see holes.
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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:
No.
Sounds a pretty cheap price to me for constructing a gas locker, assuming it includes making a hinged lid and installing the drain.
How about buying this:
Drilling it to the boat and adapting it( vent and outlet pipe etc)?
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Hi boaters,
My boat doesn't have a locker or oven in it. I've been quoted £500+ for welding a new box to the boat not including gas fitting. Any cheaper ways of doing it? Such as wooden box with metal inside lining and outlet pipe/vent?
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57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
And you suggest that 'folding sides meet those requirements ?
Read on :
The locker must not open into any engine, battery or electrical
equipment space.
The drain line material including connections must be complete
and in good condition.
NOTE ‐ these are identical storage arrangements for LPG cylinders the detail of which is to be found in
Part 7 sections 7.1–7.5.Which your locker as proposed will not comply..
We could go backwards and forwards all night, I have tried to make you aware of the requirements, It is up to you what you do,
I bet you borrow your mates car wheels to get your thru the MOT as well !!
Saves you buying some new tyres.
The difference here is that if you do have an accident, a can of petrol causes a big fire and affects anyone around your boat.
Have fun.
I know what you mean. It's probably best for me to go to an engineer to fit a generator storage box. Takes away some liability on my part if anything happens.
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3 minutes ago, blackrose said:
This is what I do. I built it from aluminium angle and sheet. I'm not recommending it to others as it doesn't pass the BSS. The other side of the box is a solid sheet. so it has 3 fully vented sides. I wouldn't do this on a narrowboat as it's too close to the rest of the boat..
Your boat only has one air vent? Are you sure?
I might have two on the ceiling but no fan has been connected.
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1 minute ago, blackrose said:
This is what I do. I built it from aluminium angle and sheet. I'm not recommending it to others as it doesn't pass the BSS. The other side of the box is a solid sheet. so it has 3 fully vented sides. I wouldn't do this on a narrowboat as it's too close to the rest of the boat..
Looks good. I guess its just a case of removing it and putting it in your car every three years during the examination.
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11 minutes ago, blackrose said:
Don't run it in the box, it will overheat. I tried it with 2 sides of the box vented with 10" x 10" louvre vents and the lid of the box off but it overheated. So then I used the 12v output of the generator to run a 12 fan above the generator to try to cool it down but it still got too hot.
If you're running it inside anything it needs to be more of a cage than a box. More empty space than sides if you see what I mean.
You don't have vents in the stern doors? Petrol fumes from refueling are the other issue. They are heavier than air and behave in much the same way as lpg. What about petrol fumes that might go into the engine space?
Yes the door has no air vent. It only has one air vent in the boat.
9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:OK your boat, but read the BSS requirements for petrol storage as your proposal will not pass the BSS.
Read section 5:2:2 of the BSS 2015.
You realise that the perception will be that we are being negative to a new member and putting him off.
No thought that we are actually trying to not only help, but, keep him alive.
The BSS requirements- Portable petrol tanks which are not connected to the engine must be stored in the open where any leaked petrol would flowoverboard
unimpeded, or in a suitable locker.
Any locker used to store portable petrol tanks must be:
• drained to the outside of the hull from, at, or close to the bottom of
the locker; and,
• secure and constructed of a material of the required thickness, in
good condition; and,
• free from objectsthat could block the drain, damage the petrol tank
or cause petrol vapour to ignite; and,
• fuel‐tight to an equal or greater height that the top of the cap for the
petrol tank; and,
• self‐draining and the drain hole must have a minimum internal
diameter of 12mm (½in) and must not be blocked; and,
The locker must not open into any engine, battery or electrical
equipmentspace.
The drain line material including connections must be complete and inSo basically just a 12mm hole in the box that drains into the river....
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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Are you planning to run the genny 'in the box' ?
You will need to sort out air supply and more particularly exhaust gas removal. That's what killed the couple on Windermere - they had a DIY exhaust connecting the generator to the 'outside' and the guy that made it was a qualified gas fitter !!!
You will need to be able to lift it out onto the bank to refuel.
I'm going to create/adapt a metal box whereby two sides flip down meaning I don't needs to move it and just keep it locked in there. I am also going to put some seals on the stern door to make sure no fumes can enter the boat whilst running the generator.
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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Try Gumtree or preloved for a Kipor 2000.
Just askin - have you considered how you are going to :
1) Source petrol
2) Store petrol (maximum legal amount 30 litres)
3) Store the generator.
https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/petrol-safety/
Don't be tempted to run the generator on board - lift it off and ensure it is down wind of your boat.
A gas fitter has been given a two-year suspended jail sentence after his partner and her daughter died from carbon monoxide poisoning on a boat.
Kelly Webster and 10-year-old Lauren Thornton were overcome by fumes from the boat's generator on Windermere.
I'm going to buy a metal lockable container and drill in to the stern. I drive a lot so I will pop to the station every now and then and only store 5 litres at a time. I will make sure the box is able to hold the fuel container as well. Gas container will be at the bow. Where I will store it is separated from the rest of the boat. I will also invest in another carbon monoxide alarm as well to be on the safe side.
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I've had a look around and at other posts on CW and everyone is saying get a Honda EU 2.0i but they are on the expensive side.
I've got three batteries and two solar panels.
My power demands are : one water pump, one shower pump, lED lights, charge laptop and phone, run work printer and will eventually buy a 12 volt telly.
Any advice on a good cheap petrol generator? My budget is around £500 for a generator and multi charger controller ( as someone suggested earlier).
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Hi boaters,
I've got three batteries and two solar panels. Any advice on how to charge batteries by a generator ( how to wire up as well) and what generator to buy?
Mooring up and narrowboat ropes
in New to Boating?
Posted
I got two old pairs of tyre's from the back of old kwitfit today and tied them to either end of the boat. Problem solved. Works brilliantly. Many thanks.