Tasemu
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Posts posted by Tasemu
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Just now, IanD said:
If you're looking to install new Victron gear and you want to be able to use both shoreline and generator AC, is there a reason (cost? size?) you didn't consider a Quattro rather than a Multiplus?
I got the multiplus for a decent price and its been sitting there for a year while I worked out how to get a clean 230v from my diesel genny.
Just now, IanD said:You can set the Multiplus to be charger only.
I would like to be able to use the inverter too though
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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:
Are you sure? I thought they had a setting that did just that, but it may have a name that does not make what it does obvious. However, using that might disable the inverter augmenting the shore line input or high currents.
I was under the impression that it can swap between charging and inverting automatically, however because the ac output loops back into the selector switch and then back into the AC input of the victron, i had thought it would detect it as a charging current.
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Hi all, i have created a couple of flow charts below which encompass 3 setups i'm playing around with in my head. The current setup is how i have it now. It has a separate inverter and charger, i manually set the selector switch and the charger switch when i want to swap from inverting to charging. I have a victron multiplus I want to install and in the short term to avoid a large rewiring situation in my engine bay I was considering the Temp Setup for minimal wire chaging. It should just be a matter of swapping the sterling charger for the victron and swapping the inverter cable to the AC out on the multiplus. It would appear to me from this setup that i would still need to manually swap between inverting and charging to avoid the multiplus charging off itself. I have two main questions I was hoping to get advice one for this.
1: Is there a better approach to the temp setup that would not require rewiring my generator output?2: Does the New Setup actually make sense as an appropriate way to configure this?
Thanks in advance for any and all advice!
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2 hours ago, BEngo said:
Next thing is to check the regulation.
You need to increase the load in steps, to near full power, checking and adjusting the output voltage and frequency at each step. A fan heater is a good tool because they usually have various heat settings. Best thing I'd to just run through, measuring, and then decide what output power you want to set it up at, with some idea then where it will be at no load and full load.
You may expect to find that at full output the voltage is at the low end of the range and at low output it is in the high end of the range. The official UK ac power supply limits are something like 236 to 254 V. AC
The regulated speed of the Beta will depend on how it has been set up. I would certainly expect more than 49 Hz to be available at no/low load. The speed regulation will inevitably have some droop, so if you can't get 50+ Hz at no load you will be looking at ~45 Hz or less at full load.
N
Hrmm. the only way i know to adjust the engine speed was from this bolt that pushes the adjuster on the engine. I've had to push this the whole way in, you might hear the engine sounding quite fast on the video. Perhaps i'm adjusting the speed from the wrong control?
EDIT: The bolt in question is the steel un-painted one which moves the larger red leaver under the shorter red one.
3 hours ago, BEngo said:Next thing is to check the regulation.
You need to increase the load in steps, to near full power, checking and adjusting the output voltage and frequency at each step. A fan heater is a good tool because they usually have various heat settings. Best thing I'd to just run through, measuring, and then decide what output power you want to set it up at, with some idea then where it will be at no load and full load.
You may expect to find that at full output the voltage is at the low end of the range and at low output it is in the high end of the range. The official UK ac power supply limits are something like 236 to 254 V. AC
The regulated speed of the Beta will depend on how it has been set up. I would certainly expect more than 49 Hz to be available at no/low load. The speed regulation will inevitably have some droop, so if you can't get 50+ Hz at no load you will be looking at ~45 Hz or less at full load.
N
No idea why, but when running with a ~2kw load the voltage climbed from 230v to 236v... The hz went down to 48.7hz. But clueless on that. Currently using the air fryer to heat some chicken wings to see if the engine overheats with the current rpm required to get 50hz.
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Hi all, i promised i'd be back with results so here I am! I found this schematic (attached to post) online for a very similar markon generator head and figured that if I disconnected and isolated Z3 and Z2 from the rectifier then it should no longer be supplying the slip rings with a voltage. After doing this I installed the F1 and F2 cables from the slip rings to the old AVR and connected them to the new SX-460, i also used wago connectors to tee off the live and neutral from one of the generator outlets to supply the SX-460 with power and voltage sensing.
When starting the engine nothing exploded and i was getting around 120v @ 42hz. I slowly increased the speed of the engine until the speed bolt (pictured) topped out at about 49.6hz. I then slowly raised the voltage potentiometer on the SX-460 until I got a clean 230vac from the outlet at no load.
I have included a video of the results, and this appears a success at first glance but i'd appreciate a sanity check on my methods, and also one question. Is it normal that my little beta engine for the generator only reaches a top speed of ~50hz? The bolt wouldn't go any further.Thanks so much for all the help so far and any answers to my above 2 questions!
Results Video:
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So after looking at this video, i think it might be possible. He's putting a sx460 on a Markon SC21G (mine is a Markon SL105), and he seems to have a bridge rectifier like mine and a choke like mine, only difference being the resistor method over my old avr. He's disconnected all that stuff and the sx460 seems to be working. As it looks like i have no option but to suck it and see.. I guess i'll come back with the results once i work up the courage? Cheers!
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12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
Be aware I am spouting assumptions based on theory.
Think of the rotor permanent magnet having north at one and south at the other. Now put a winding around the rotor with the winding north and south the opposite way round. If you now put sufficient currant through the rotor so it produces the same strength of magnet as the permanent magnet and the two field cancel each other out. This is how RCDs work. No effective magnetic field, so no output. In this scenario, the rotor winding is used to reduce the effect of the permanent magnet.
I think i understand yeah, assuming i have no loads connected to the generator. Do you think this would be something worth testing? Or would you say there would be a significant risk of damaging my generator?
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5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
Be careful, I have a suspicion that a perm ant magnet rotor may be involved to make it self-exiting, and if so I doubt that what you propose will work.
In fact, the actual rotor winding MIGHT be acting in opposition to such permanent magnets, so if you regulate them you might get an even higher voltage.
If the rotor magnets were permanent, then wouldn't it not require a field winding voltage at all? I'm still new to a lot of the theory of all this.
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I think i may have a shot at disconnecting the rectifier completely from the rotor windings, as the SX460 takes the 230v output from the generator and uses that to supply a dc regulated field winding voltage. I feel in my gut that it would work... I am terrified about damaging my generator though
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Yeah i have a link to a digital copy if needed. Any help would be appreciated highly, I have a new victron multiplus sitting there collecting dust for months now as i can't use it with the current avr so I need to sort something out 😅
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This might be crazy, but if i disconnected the rectifier from the slip rings... could i not use the sx460? As it connects to the slip rings through the brushes? In my mind it would work as the field winding would no longer be powered from the auxillery coil, but instead powered from the sx460 through the brushes?
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15 minutes ago, Tonka said:
Does the attached help
markon application guidance note.pdf 671.98 kB · 2 downloads
Cheers, i think it does explain why i'm getting voltage after disconnecting the old AVR.. Though i'm still puzzled how i'm supposed to install this SX460 if the slip rings are getting power directly from the full bridge rectifier...
Just now, BEngo said:There are two stator windings. One is the output. The other provides the field current, and this à is permanently connected to the field winding. The rotor is designed to produce too much field current. If there is no load and no AVR there should be enough field for the output to reach 300V. The basics of the generator thus seems to be working as designed.
The AVR is supposed to divert some of the field current elsewhere when the voltage is higher than the set point. I guess this will be by switching a resistor in and out of parallel with the field windings. The (new) AVR either does not work like this or is not working.
N
Yeah it looks like the SX460 actually supplies a voltage to the slip rings rather than siphons it off from there. So i'm guessing its incompatible
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So i'm totally stumped... I set the generator to 50hz and it was outputting 280v with the old AVR. I then installed the SX460 and its still outputting 280v with the voltage trimmer down to minimum. Then i even disconnected the wires to the brushes.. which as far as i know should be powering the rotor windings through the slip rings and its still outputting 280v! Its almost like the generator is totally ignoring the AVR's and getting power to the slip rings from somewhere else... I'm so confused. For now i've set the Hz back to 42 and its dropped the voltage back to 230v. Can anyone offer any advice on what might be going on here?
I managed to find this online... i'm guessing that this kind of AVR reduces the power to the rotors, but it will work without an avr but at a higher voltage... So i'm guessing that the SX460 wont work with it... I'm honestly not sure.
Info:
The SL105 The SL 105 range have two stator windings. The main winding is used to provide the alternator’s output power and therefore, will be connected to the load. It typically consists of two 120V windings, brought out to terminals by four leads identified as U1 – U2 and U5 – U6. Connecting these windings in series [link U2 to U5] will provide the most commonly required 240V output between terminals U1 and U6. The output leads of the auxiliary winding are marked Z1 and Z2 and this winding provides power for the excitation system. The output of this winding is connected, via a series connected choke, to the ac input terminals of a single phase full wave bridge rectifier, which is the 4-terminal solid state device mounted near the choke. The dc output of the bridge rectifier is connected to the rotor windings via the slip-rings. The positive (+ve) lead is identified by the marking F1 [X on old alternators] and this is connected to the slip-ring closest to the alternator bearing. The negative (-ve) lead being marked F2 [XX on old alternators]. AGN 102 ISSUE B/13/21 This excitation system is designed to generate slightly more excitation than is really needed for any condition between No-load and Full-load. Excess excitation is diverted away from the rotor [field] windings by a solid state Automatic Voltage Regulator [AVR]. The AVR is designed to momentarily short-out the excitation voltage being supplied to the slip-rings and by so doing, it reduces the effective level of excitation available to ‘flow’ through the rotor winding. The alternator’s output voltage is controlled by the level of excitation current flowing through the rotor winding. The AVR senses the voltage of the main winding and compares this voltage level with the ‘set’ voltage level and maintains a constant output voltage under load conditions by constantly adjusting the level of the excitation being applied to rotor winding. As explained above, the alternator actually generates more than required excitation and this is reduced by the action of the diverter type AVR. This means that the alternator will operate without an AVR, but will generate higher than nominal output voltage. Without the AVR being connected, the output voltage will be some 300V under a No-Load condition. If load is applied to the alternator, then this 300V will reduce in proportion to the level of load applied such that at rated load the output voltage will be some 250V. In emergency conditions, where the alternator must be operated without an AVR, the output voltage can be reduced to acceptable levels if the engine speed is reduced. -
On 16/12/2023 at 11:44, Tonka said:
has yours got the box on it with the connections in it ? cant see why that box couldnt be replaced with a bigger box with the AVR in
Yeah mine has a box on top of the alternator part of the genset, its quite large and only contains the brakers for it... perhaps i could mount in there 🤔
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Potentially stupid question, but if i replace the MD1C markon avr with the SC460, could i use some wire extensions to mount the avr outside the generator for easier access in the future? Pulling the whole damn thing apart is a nightmare.
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Just now, Tonka said:
Do you have a manual for Markon. I can send you a softcover of one if you have not.
I have recently replaced a Markon SL105 with a Mecallte Es16f-150 on a Beta BD3
Cheers, i do have digital copies so should be fine but thanks for the offer.
I'm hoping replacing the the AVR will sort the issue rather than the alternator side of the genny. Mostly for money and the pain of the job in a confined space on the boat. Hence why this SX460 avr looks tempting at only ~£20. -
Hi all, a few might remember my old post a while ago regarding my diesel generator outputting around 270v @ 50hz and how I was going to replace the AVR. Long story short I still haven't had the guts to tear the generator open again but am finally getting ready to take the dive. I was looking online and a lot of people appear to be recommending the SX460 as a decent and cheap AVR for generators. I'm wondering if it would be a like for like replacement for my old AVR that is very difficult to find nowadays... The mounting holes seems different but... Zip tie magic?
Cheers for any advice!
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Just now, sigsegv said:
Cheers mate, installed. The log photo screen renders the spinning wheel for a couple seconds then I just have a blank page. V1.0.0, app has the necessary permissions (see second image), running Android 13
Its highly likely that none of the pictures you have are geotagged, only geotagged pictures are usable for logging location. Its a setting on your phone you will need to turn on in order to start geotagging the photo's you take.
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V1.0 has been approved by the google play store and is available here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.driftdiary.app&pcampaignid=web_share
Please post any feedback or issues you have with using the app here, its still early days. 👍
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Just send you an invite on the face space and followed you on github 👍
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HAHA! This is flipping uncanny timing. The app looks amazing mate and i'll download it today to check it out.
Got a link to the repo? I'd love to have a squiz at the code.
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14 minutes ago, Goliath said:
I like to have a sneaky over stay here and there so why would I want to prove I’ve been overstaying ?
Why would I want to use the app and send the details to CRT?
Just don't upload that picture, will still work fine 😉
3 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:Are you a CCer?
Sure am mate 👏
Also might be worth reminding that this app sends nothing to nobody, but if CRT ever asked you to prove it. You press the PDF export button and have a brewski. I ain't trying to change nothing major here.
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1 hour ago, IanD said:
And yet again we have the "you haven't been on the canals as much as me..." response... 😞
I've been on them regularly -- yes mostly on hire boats, so what? -- for about 40 years, in that time I reckon I've travelled something like 4000 miles over a large part of the system (mostly more than once) and been through maybe 2000 locks, and I've seen the year-on-year changes in the canals and especially the deterioration since the millennium -- and I see the boats moored (and occasionally moving...) along the stretch near me several times a week. How about you?
If you don't understand how this app might improve things by making it easier to sort law-abiding boaters from law-flouting ones, you haven't been reading my posts. Or you have but have been deliberately misunderstanding/ignoring what I wrote... 😞
I bet @Tasemu is getting really p*ssed off with people bitching about his app and bickering when all he seems to be trying to do is make something which could be genuinely useful to boaters... 😞
Not at all mate, i got tough skin. I genuinely think all these arguments can be used to change/improve it. Free feedback mate.
48 minutes ago, IanD said:The last time I was on the canal was last year. And the year before that, and the year before that, and so on for many years going back to the 1980s. Typically doing maybe 100 miles and 50 locks each time, so seeing a fair part of the canals, and how they've been getting worse each year for quite some time. How about you?
(and just to be clear I'm not making a big deal about it, there are lots of people with far more extensive experience than me stretching back further and for longer periods -- but I suspect not you, and you're the one who started the willy-waving not me...)
Yes I do think that because checkers walking round the canals are inaccurate, ineffective, and the money spent on them could be better spent on maintenance. Do you disagree with any of this?
Why should CART spend a fortune issuing a tracker to everyone's boat, if an app can do the same job at far lower cost? Again, more money for maintenance...
Your last comment shows you still don't get it -- yes right now you don't need such an app, but you would (or an equivalent) if in order to get your license renewed you had to "satisfy the board", not rely on trackers. No satisfaction, no license. Won't fix the problem of boaters with unlicensed unlabelled "stealth" boats, but should significantly help with the CMers.
Absolutely -- but of course it only works if you've already been using the app, you can't wait until being challenged and then install it. Think of it as an insurance policy, at least for the moment.
If CART did get rid of (most of the) checkers then it or an alternative would become essential to renew your license rather than an insurance policy. But this concept seems anathema to some people, even if it might make things better for law-abiding boaters... 😞
Actually, as long as you have taken pictures of your boat then you can install the app and import them, it should work as expected. In the current build anyway... Once i switch it up as you suggested this may be less viable. 🤔
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1 hour ago, Ewan123 said:
CRT have made mistakes for boaters who are genuinely CCing which can have a significant effect on that boater (e.g. I'm pretty sure I read that a CRT mooring would be denied to anyone previously on a 6-month licence).
I know we are way over the minimum CC requirements but I would be happy to have this data in reserve for when the CRT computer fails to calculate my cruising range due to (for instance) inaccurate spotting data.
I keep a written log of our travels but that doesn't include photos. I'd quite like this app just for recreational value, with the backup of data to dispute any erroneous CRT conclusions. At the end of the day, CRT can claim I fail to CC properly even if they have spotting data that shows otherwise. It's me that will suffer for their mistake and it's my duty to satisfy The Board of my movements and prove them wrong if necessary.This is the exact reason why i made it yeah. I have run into this issue myself and was able to sort it easily, but i like having the data ready if I ever need it.
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Replacing current inverter and charger with Victron Multiplus
in Boat Equipment
Posted
Yeah absolutely, i'm so used to this setup of manually switching that I'm honestly not worried about forgetting. Basically just can't get down into the bilge to rewire my generator until the weekend and i've uninstalled my old inverter already haha.
Like so?