Froggy
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Posts posted by Froggy
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6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:
There was no hour counter on the boat when I bought ours out of a hire fleet and it bothered me not one jot. What would have bothered me is if it did not start well from cold, leaked or burned oil, smoked excessively or banged when running. It did not and now some 17 years plater I am still not worried.
5 hours ago, chubby said:all the above advice is very correct especially with regards to how you go forward from here and the fact that if funds are low then you may not be able to fix the problem ( percieved or actual ) anyway .
Regardless of the engine hours , you and engine are where you are & if the engine seems to be performing ok then thats all well and good . As you can see in the photo above there IS a decimal point before the last number - yours will be the same .
I would humbly suggest you now move on , & try to stop worrying ( if infact you are ... ) . Say that from now on the engine will be serviced according to the service intervals recommended in the manual ( 250 hours ?) by yourself or by paying someone else . This will bring peace of mind that during your ownership , regardless of what happened previously , the engine was maintained as required .
Thats pretty much all you can do & all you need to do . Things will still go wrong with it from time to time , but thats boat ownership innit ?
cheers
3 hours ago, WotEver said:WotEver didn't have an hour counter either. It started easily, didn't smoke and (once the rubber mounts were replaced) it ran smoothly. The boat went fwd and backwards so it all seemed good to me.
Thanks foe all the great advice and reassurance guys, much appreciated.
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1 hour ago, David Mack said:
Thanks, that was an interesting read.
43 minutes ago, WotEver said:Because of the requirement to wash off Fertan and the fact that 1) this introduces water into exactly the place you don't want it and 2) if you don't do a thorough job of washing it off the paint won't stick... I much prefer Vactan.
Tony
I wish i'd known this before i bought the Fertan!! How much is Vactan for a can?
EDIT: i've had a look at this product on what is presumably the official website, http://www.paco-systems.co.uk Are you recommending this on the basis of personal experience, and are you saying that it doesn't create any dust and can therefore be painted straight over with primer? Is this product considered as effective at neutralising rust as Fertan, which is what i was recommended and sold by a reputable boatyard? The product doesn't seem to be available from either Amazon or eBay so i might have problems obtaining it, otherwise i'd seriously consider using it for this job.
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22 minutes ago, X Alan W said:
In my last post as it seemed to be going nowhere I said I would bow out However I cannot resist asking a final question Mr Froggy you state you cash is in short supply,which I well understand. Your over riding worry is, is your engine a "Good un" as your funds will not allow replacement. My observations #1,your engine is in the condition it is no matter if you can/not afford to repair/replace it #2 Knowing if it's run 1 or 40,000 hrs will have no effect on it's condition, & whats the point in knowing/ worrying if it's Knackered if you have no way cash wise of rectifying faults if they exist. It appears you require it to run 2 or so hrs per day for batteries to be up to the task Again it's a no go if the engine will not go, so your batts will go flat quite soon & you have no funds It appears the unit is starting running & generally doing as it should with no problems if all is as you say run it like you stole it & it will do what ever is dictated by the condition worrying about how many hrs it's run will have no effect on it"s present condition so it's run 40,000 hrs & it's knackered,WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? you have no funds to renew/build it,you cannot charge your batts.Knowing or not Knowing will make no difference if you knew it had run a lot of hrs what difference would it make You would know it was a problem BUT WHAT WOULD /COULD YOU DO ABOUT IT re cash problems My advice although you will probably ignore /disregard it is RUN IT UNTIL SOMETHING GOES WRONG You never know it might more than likely run for a number of years with no problems other than requiring servicing.& start worring thinking problems if it goes "BANG"
Alan, i completely accept your logic here. That's not going to stop me looking to see whether or not there is a decimal point on the display next time it becomes visible though! I'm sure you would have asked questions about the engine before you bought your boat and would have walked away from it, or negotiated a significant reduction in price, for one that didn't come up to your expectations. We couldn't read the display when we bought the boat, so took a chance as per the earlier posts in the thread, but that didn't mean that my curiosity stopped there. Maybe i'm a bit of a worrier, but you are wrong if you think i spend my whole time worrying. I have had countless moments of pleasure on the boat in the short time since we bought it in November. Some of those moments have come from sailing it, and many more have been spent when moored up, watching the wildlife and the scenery, exploring the surrounding countryside, or just sat with with one of my other half's excellent cooked meals, a bottle of Old Tom or something similar, and watching tv or a good dvd.
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5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:Froggy,
we have the same problem as you on our newly purchased 2002 nb. I was thinking of starting the same job this week but instead started on the rusty bits on the outside instead using Fertan. The instructions on the Fertan say wash off with water after 24 hrs and my experience is that that is needed to get rid of the black 'dust' that is formed from reaction of the fertan with the rust. Therefore I would insert this task in your list - but then you have to mop it out and dry it again before painting. I think I would also use a 'tolerant' primer - someone is bound to chip in with their recommendations. Given the amount of rust in ours, it must have been underwater for a lot of its life so a coating designed for water immersion would be best - so a 2 pack epoxy would be good - but again I am sure there will be some good recommendations given.
I have not had the experience with Fertan yet to say how much rust needs to be scraped off, but for best performance you should remove all loose stuff - ie any thing that comes off with a sharp scraper.
Ultrasonic thickness testing is usually quite accurate and your surveyor should have tested that area - but I seriously doubt a 20 year old boat with 10mm steel plate would have corroded through from the inside. Scrape it as best you can then treat it. That is what I will be doing.
Many thanks for your advice.
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20 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
The difference between a 20 year old steel boat and a 40 year one is:-
A) The level of maintenance
The thickness and quality of the steel
C) A regular survey
D) none of the above
E) Something else
F) 20 years
Don't phone in, it's just for fun.
Possibly F, dependent on A
But i'd still be interested in somebody confirming whether the steps in my top post are the correct ones, because i want to get stuck into this job on Monday.
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9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
Early 80's.Dry most of the year, paint could have been better (obviously)
That's a fair bit older than hours, which is 1997 build. Good luck with the results, if the formula 1mm of rust = .1mm of loss then hopefully you will have no serious issues. I've wondered (during my worrying moments
) how worthwhile the survey's ultrasonic measurments are, and how effectively they can differentiate sound metal from rust on the other side of the plate, i.e. the inside of the boat.....
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1 minute ago, rusty69 said:
Yes, engine room, counter floor. I will find out after the surveyor has been.
Please keep me posted. How old is your boat and did you have standing water on an unpainted surface like we have had?
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5 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
That's what I was doing a few weeks back. I'm now Sat under a crane waiting for a surveyor
That's worrying - and you know that i already have more than enough worries! ;-)
So what did you find? I'm aware that 1mm of rust is equivalent to only about a tenth of a mm of actual metal loss, but still don't want to weaken the structure unnecessarily by chipping away at partially rusted stuff. If the Fertan does what it claims it should prevent further rust advance in this anyway. I'm guessing you found some serious plate loss? Was it in your engine bilge?
19 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:Mine needs doing. To do it properly the first thing to do is remove the engine.
There's no way i'll be doing that! I will use rollers or spray cans to get to the drip tray under our engine, and also our now redundant mud box.
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49 minutes ago, Harpur Hill said:
Clap boat?
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Well, this job is overdue. We bought the boat in November with standing water in the engine bay, and although for some of this time it's been dry, with one application of Fertan applied, we now want to get the job over and done with. So, would i be correct in assuming that these are the requisite steps:
1. hoover out any loose debris
2. apply degreaser
3. remove degreaser with warm soapy water
4. liberally apply Fertan and allow to dry
5. hoover out any loose debris
6. one coat of primer
7. two coats of bilge paint with rust inhibitor additive
I've been advised to 'remove loose rust' by one boatyard. I'm reluctant to start chipping away at rust. Would i be doing the right thing to interpret this literally and just remove rust that is literally loose, i.e. flakes that have come away from the steel and can be brushed/hoovered out?
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20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
Google a word comprising the loud noise heard during a storm plus what you have recently purchased. There is no moderation and you can say and discuss what you like. The result is that a lot of swearing and personal insults go on. Free to join, just like this place and some of us are members of both.
12 minutes ago, rusty69 said:Crack pipe?
Thundery Boat Full Of Worrying Problems?
I guess I'll pass on that forum, I spend far too much time lost in the Web as it is, and besides, you lot are a great, and a treasure trove of useful advice.
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44 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
I agree and am very pleased he did not ask in the other place. By now the comments would have been both ripe and forthright.
What's this other place you speak of, is it some esoteric society for the initiated? Do you have to have a certain amount of greenies to join?
I appreciate everyone's help and good wishes but have to make the point that my funds are very tight at the moment and if I could easily fund a replacement engine, should the case arise, my worries would be almost nonexistent.
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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:
Ok UPDATE:
I awarded Froggy three different emojies, cancelling each in order to award the next, and his reputation rose by one for each positive emojie, just like getting a greenie. The negative emojies made no change to his reputation.
Greenie awarded for being the subject of my experiment, and his 'noticfications' tab probably filling up!
Well geenie gratefully accepted Mike, my wallet is near empty and I'm already a third of the way through the single malt I got for my birthday.
It was a useful experiment actually, because maybe the neutral emojis are acceptable if they don't affect rep, although in the absence of negative emojis some people might award the neutral ones as a form of disapproval.
I'd have awarded you a greenie for the experiment, but they don't seem to work on the mobile site, at least on my Windows phone, Admin please note.
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1 hour ago, Eeyore said:
Odd that the Barrus header tank wasn't fitted when the engine was changed. Perhaps it was to big, which would explain the modification to the bmc tank.
Yeah, interesting indeed. Significant changes were made in the engine bay, since with the original engine the coolant was drawn in from the cut and we now have a redundant mud box etc Maybe there just wasn't room for the Barrus tank without significant bodging, or maybe it was just a case of the existing tank being perfectly serviceable way back in 2002 when the boat was only 5 years old. It was certainly a good bodge because there's no evidence of water seeping from the additional union.
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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:
The problem is that unless anyone knows the boat and its history how can you or anyone else tell if its been recondition. I would have thought there are far more important and pressing things to concern yourself about a boat that is new to you than worrying if an apparently perfectly serviceable engine has been reconditioned.
Don't worry about it - just enjoy using it and come back when (not if) it start to play up. Probably in over 10 years for the engine and a few months or years for the batteries.
Ok, point taken, I need to delve further into the philosophical teachings of Buddhism.
But nevertheless I'll be sure to let you all know if I spot that decimal point on the display! -
2 hours ago, Ray T said:
@Froggy, I took my life in my hands, donned life support systems and went into "the pit of doom" (otherwise known as the garage) and found this. I rarely throw anything away in case it may come in use! Looking at the picture of your header tank I think the pipe to the left of the central one may be a non standard addition. As before it is yours for P & P, it is of little use to me. PM me to sort out finer details.
Wow. That looks like our tank minus, as Richard notes, one outlet! You may well be right about the other outlet being an aftermarket addition; when i was applying some Araldite yesterday i wondered about the reason why one appears to have a washer and nut attached. I'm now curious to remove the pipe and see how it has been bodged, if in fact that is the case. I'm very interested in your tank Ray, it would save some hassle since you can see from my original photograph that there is minimal space between two of the isolator switches to fit something with even marginally larger dimensions, and re-siting would also be problematic. Let me see what the original fitters have to offer, assuming they reply to my email. If they have a brand new tank hanging about then obviously i would opt for that, but otherwise i would be happy to pay you a few quid for the one you have.
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13 minutes ago, Heffalump said:
Even better, get proper butter and don't keep it in the 'fridge!
(Our one 12v socket has proved very useful for recharging our phones though! We were going to get an electric cool box to use on that socket in lieu of the fridge, but are probably going to put the money toward a more power-efficient fridge instead).
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5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:
Its only a source for concern if:-
a. you are a compulsive worrier.
b. There are other symptoms that suggests all might not be well.
I suspect a applies and from what you say b does not.
The service interval varies from make to make and sometimes model to model. It could be anything between 100 hours and 300 hours. The manual has chapter and verse.
You guessed correctly.
5 hours ago, X Alan W said:We service our processor unit every 200hrs which is usually every month /5weeks as it works roughly the hrs the guys do 40 & up per week. As an aside I dont think you would achieve that number of hrs leisure boating from 1957 to 1972 I boated commercially & hotel boated & although not sure I don't think my engine hrs reached 43 K as my calculation equate to 5375 days /767.8 weeks & 14.7 years running for 8 hrs every day at a litre an 'hourish' fuel consumption I shudder at the thought of the fuel bill
Fair point, but still nobody has come back to me regarding the possibility that the engine may have been reconditioned when it was installed and had the control panel from the reconditioned engine installed at the same time. Incidentally, i forgot to mention that the engine originally fitted to the boat was not a Barrus Shire/Yanmar, so in answer to somebody else's suggestion further up the thread (i forget who) the control panel will not have clocked up the hours from the original engine.
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We've recently left a marina to spend the rest of the summer and autumn on the cut. It strikes me having read through the thread that it may be better to run the engine less than is optimum for battery life and save on fuel, since the savings on fuel might outweigh the cost of additional batteries over a given period. I know plenty will disagree with my reasoning since i'm aware of the general consensus from previous threads, so am not looking here to argue the pros and cons of maximising long-term battery capacity. Anyway, this is all new to us, we bought our boat last November and it's our first. One thing that has become obvious to me after just a couple of weeks is that the electric fridge is an enormous draw on power, and having to run the inverter all day just to power a fridge is a further significant draw. Our boat isn't wired up to take a 12v fridge (we have just one 12v outlet on the boat), so we are experimenting with the following option: using minimal food that requires chilling, and using a combination of the fridge and ice box for the few essentials. In essence these essentials are little more than milk and butter. Tinned vegetables can replace frozen, and if you want to treat yourself then fresh veg and salads will keep a few days on the boat anyway. Long life milk can be stored in a cupboard until opened, and so can peanut butter, which is a decent option on bread for breakfast if you run out of butter. Additionally, rice cakes are a good option to stock in the cupboard in case you run out of bread and are tasty with butter and jam, peanut butter etc. Therefore, we a going to try just powering the fridge for a couple of hours whilst the engine is running. After this the inverter can be turned off for the rest of the day unless we wish to watch tv or power a laptop (we have a 12v radio/cd player). On a reasonably cool day a couple of hours running the fridge gets the ice box down to about -20C, and even about 20 hours later the temperature is still about 3-4C. Therefore, milk, butter etc. can be stored in the main fridge compartment to begin with, then when the temperature of the fridge begins to rise these items can be transferred to the ice box, which will have dropped down nearer to an acceptable fridge temperature. Obviously during heatwave the fridge, and hence the inverter and engine, will have to be run for longer. A cheap fridge thermometer from the likes of Maplins can be used to monitor temperatures.
Another power saving trick that most of you will already be aware of is to replace any halogen bulbs with led ones, which if i remember correctly are about 7-8 times more efficient with power. I would highly recommend Bedazzled as a source for these, they have a wide range of options and all have overload protection built in. Merely replacing the halogen bulbs with multi-point led bulbs in our existing spotlamps has given our 20 year old boat a more modern look, especially in the galley area where we chose a high lumen cool white option that has proved excellent for food preparation. We'll be buying another of these to act as a reading lamp.
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3 hours ago, RichM said:
Well unless the poll results change soon, we're heading for no change on the reactions feature.
2 hours ago, nicknorman said:The trouble with polls like this is that you only get to give one answer, not a second choice etc. So we have 24 who don't like it at all, and 24 who do like it but of them, 6 don't want the negative options. So I'd say it's hardly a clear-cut answer! It would be wrong to say that because the "please change it back to how it was" option has the most votes, that most people want it changed back to how it was.
Ok, i'm going to admit that my vote to change back to the original greenie was a bit of a hasty and reactionary reaction, and on more considered reflection i can see the value of the new system, although i guess the original vintage greenies will always carry more face value when it comes to credo or trading in for single malts and fine wines. So Admin, if you can, please change my choice from 'go back to the original greenies' to 'please remove the negative reactions'. That to me is a decent compromise because it will mean that any form of greenie is a contribution to positive 'rep'.
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5 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:
If it is in decimal mins, you only need to wait 12 mins and it will have gone up by two.
I just need to get the blasted display to show up again! I noticed it very faintly now and then during the winter when the dark evenings made the background illumination dimly visible, but never thought to shine a torch at it to be able to read it. For this reason i do believe that it will shine again. I might consult an astrologer to see if they can help predict when.
1 minute ago, X Alan W said:If you have no written service history,either paper or computer the amount of engine hours is pretty meaningless an un serviced unit with 2000 hrs would be a different animal to a 3000 hour unit with oil, filters, & whatever carried out at the required time/hours period
That's a valid point, but if it really is reading 43k i guess it's a serious cause for concern regardless of how well it's been serviced.
As an aside, how often should the engine be serviced? Barrus Shire kindly sent me a .pdf manual for our 1950 engine, so i'm being lazy here because the manual probably has this information. From memory is 300 hours about right?
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Now i'm torn! I voted to revert back to the single greenie option but then enjoyed adding a few LOL-greenies to some of these posts!!
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9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
Our old Citroën will start on the handle if you swear at it enough in French.
Our Yanmar will too, but im not so good at Japanese.
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4 hours ago, cuthound said:
The speed the boat averages, or the time spent running the engine whilst moored up does not matter.
Engines wear when running, so it is the time spent running that counts. Industrial engines have engine hours counters, cars don't because they are used by less technical users, so the car manufacturer bases his service intervals on an averge of 30mph, because on average the car will travel 30 miles for every hour run.
Sometimes you can get the display to work again on VDO meters by taking them out of the cold damp boat, and putting them in a nice warm airing cupboard for a few days to dry them out. If this works, then make it an yearly routine.
I appreciate that engine running time is the relevant factor in engine wear but wasn't aware how it equated with mileage on a car odometer, thanks for the information.
2 hours ago, X Alan W said:My take on this is you are over thinking, re engine hours/condition is, as Mr Brooks says if it starts easily each time idile's with no (hot) minimum ( cold) smoke ,runs with no unusual noises & has if you can check good oil pressure, & uses no or very small amounts of oil, enjoy your boating, you say the engine was replaced ,was the control panel the original engine panel ? if yes it probably includes the hours for the original engine. If the engine has been looked after & serviced it is likely to be a better bet than a newer less hours neglected unit Modern marine unit get treated like royalty compare to the same base unit used in plant equipment & they last well in that setup
It is a fault of mine that i tend to overthink stuff. Nevertheless, a knowledge of actual hours clocked up would potentially give us more peace of mind (or not!) as we tackle various ongoing issues on the boat that are eating away money. I think, for one thing, i'd feel a bit more relaxed about how many hours we are running the engine daily to recharge the batteries.
12 minutes ago, luggsy said:Barrus shire hour meter
Thanks for this. I'm hoping to see the decimal point next time the display makes a guest appearance! Failing that I'll see whether the digit clocks up over the course of an hour.
The thickness and quality of the steel
Cleaning and painting the engine bilge
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted
Ok, many thanks for your input, you've convinced me, and the Fertan won't go to waste in the long term. There's a greenie headed your way when I get back on dry land, I cant seem to award any using the mobile site on my Windows phone.