Froggy
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Posts posted by Froggy
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18 minutes ago, dmr said:
Rust is strange and destructive stuff. I don't fully understand the mechanism but from much experience have observed that it appears to hold its own supply of water and oxygen and so the rusting process can continue for some time after it has been sealed by painting over it. If you do a 99% job of removing the rust then it should be ok and the rust will stop. If you leave too much rust behind then new rusting continues and this perforates the paint surface and lets new water and air in and all your effort was in vain. A related phenomenon is the way that rust progresses under seemingly intact paintwork, bringing in its air and water from a perforation some distance away. When you rub down a tiny paint blister you often find the rust below it to be quite extensive. It ain't called tinworm for nothing, it digs itself a burrow.
................Dave
15 minutes ago, BEngo said:Rust continues happily to grow under the best coatings in the world. There is enough moisture trapped by the coating to keep the chemistry going. Get off as much rust as you can woth scrapers and other mechanical means then treat what is left. Ensure you use enough to soak the rust in yhe bottom of any pits then prime and paint.
N
Many thanks for this advice.
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I can now confirm that there is a (flashing) decimal point on our VDO, so the hours recoded are 4.3k, since the display has been visible intermittently recently, especially after the engine has been running for some while.
Great news as far as i'm concerned. So, on to other things.
Is that a rat crawling on the roof of our boat or deathwatch beetle?....
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On 07/08/2017 at 15:53, WotEver said:
Because thick layers of rust won't all get neutralised because the treatment can't get at it.
So are you saying that it will continue to rust even though oxygen and water no longer reach it? Even the instructions for Vatcan say to scrape away loose rust with a wire brush and don't mention hacking away at anything beyond that.
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Thanks for all the input guys. I'm currently on the cut with almost no remaining data allowance until the middle of the month, will reply in greater detail when I can, I might possibly be on dry land again in a few days time. One query I have though: why hack away at rust scale that isn't easily removable rather than neutralise the rust then paint over it? As long as you don't fracture the paint layer there's no more water ingress and hence no further advancement of rust. Obviously the relatively unsound substrate is at greater risk of fracturing if you walk on it, but certainly on our boat we can do most minor tasks in the engine bay without stepping on the baseplate anyway and then it's just a case of monitoring the paintwork and doing localised repairs if necessary. The chances are our 20 year old boat still has a sound baseolate, but finding out it hasn't while the boat is in the water isn't something that fills me with relish. On the other hand, leaving things as they are and applying no rust converter and paint merely leads to further degradation of the plate.
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1 hour ago, Jak said:
Now I'm confused. The only boat I've owned is my current 80s trad. The bilge is always wet. Either from rainwater or what I thought was 'normal' leakage from the stern gland when cruising (greaser seals it up fine when not running).
Should I be aiming for a dry bilge somehow? How??
Take the boards up while the engine is running warm and check some of that water isn't coming from leaking pipes and header tanks because that's what I found.
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5 hours ago, WotEver said:
Vactan is made by Performance Chemicals:
http://performance-chemicals.net/vactan/
Yes, yes, and yes. Although it is in itself a primer so only requires an undercoat and topcoat.
In my (and many others) opinion, yes absolutely.
I found it on eBay on my first Google:
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/VACTAN-RUST-CONVERTER-AND-PRIMER-250ml-RUST-TREATMENT-/110979877654
Absolutely. Prep the surface as you would for any rust converter, slap it on, wait for it to dry, overpaint.
Ok, many thanks for your input, you've convinced me, and the Fertan won't go to waste in the long term. There's a greenie headed your way when I get back on dry land, I cant seem to award any using the mobile site on my Windows phone.
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6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:
There was no hour counter on the boat when I bought ours out of a hire fleet and it bothered me not one jot. What would have bothered me is if it did not start well from cold, leaked or burned oil, smoked excessively or banged when running. It did not and now some 17 years plater I am still not worried.
5 hours ago, chubby said:all the above advice is very correct especially with regards to how you go forward from here and the fact that if funds are low then you may not be able to fix the problem ( percieved or actual ) anyway .
Regardless of the engine hours , you and engine are where you are & if the engine seems to be performing ok then thats all well and good . As you can see in the photo above there IS a decimal point before the last number - yours will be the same .
I would humbly suggest you now move on , & try to stop worrying ( if infact you are ... ) . Say that from now on the engine will be serviced according to the service intervals recommended in the manual ( 250 hours ?) by yourself or by paying someone else . This will bring peace of mind that during your ownership , regardless of what happened previously , the engine was maintained as required .
Thats pretty much all you can do & all you need to do . Things will still go wrong with it from time to time , but thats boat ownership innit ?
cheers
3 hours ago, WotEver said:WotEver didn't have an hour counter either. It started easily, didn't smoke and (once the rubber mounts were replaced) it ran smoothly. The boat went fwd and backwards so it all seemed good to me.
Thanks foe all the great advice and reassurance guys, much appreciated.
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1 hour ago, David Mack said:
Thanks, that was an interesting read.
43 minutes ago, WotEver said:Because of the requirement to wash off Fertan and the fact that 1) this introduces water into exactly the place you don't want it and 2) if you don't do a thorough job of washing it off the paint won't stick... I much prefer Vactan.
Tony
I wish i'd known this before i bought the Fertan!! How much is Vactan for a can?
EDIT: i've had a look at this product on what is presumably the official website, http://www.paco-systems.co.uk Are you recommending this on the basis of personal experience, and are you saying that it doesn't create any dust and can therefore be painted straight over with primer? Is this product considered as effective at neutralising rust as Fertan, which is what i was recommended and sold by a reputable boatyard? The product doesn't seem to be available from either Amazon or eBay so i might have problems obtaining it, otherwise i'd seriously consider using it for this job.
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22 minutes ago, X Alan W said:
In my last post as it seemed to be going nowhere I said I would bow out However I cannot resist asking a final question Mr Froggy you state you cash is in short supply,which I well understand. Your over riding worry is, is your engine a "Good un" as your funds will not allow replacement. My observations #1,your engine is in the condition it is no matter if you can/not afford to repair/replace it #2 Knowing if it's run 1 or 40,000 hrs will have no effect on it's condition, & whats the point in knowing/ worrying if it's Knackered if you have no way cash wise of rectifying faults if they exist. It appears you require it to run 2 or so hrs per day for batteries to be up to the task Again it's a no go if the engine will not go, so your batts will go flat quite soon & you have no funds It appears the unit is starting running & generally doing as it should with no problems if all is as you say run it like you stole it & it will do what ever is dictated by the condition worrying about how many hrs it's run will have no effect on it"s present condition so it's run 40,000 hrs & it's knackered,WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? you have no funds to renew/build it,you cannot charge your batts.Knowing or not Knowing will make no difference if you knew it had run a lot of hrs what difference would it make You would know it was a problem BUT WHAT WOULD /COULD YOU DO ABOUT IT re cash problems My advice although you will probably ignore /disregard it is RUN IT UNTIL SOMETHING GOES WRONG You never know it might more than likely run for a number of years with no problems other than requiring servicing.& start worring thinking problems if it goes "BANG"
Alan, i completely accept your logic here. That's not going to stop me looking to see whether or not there is a decimal point on the display next time it becomes visible though! I'm sure you would have asked questions about the engine before you bought your boat and would have walked away from it, or negotiated a significant reduction in price, for one that didn't come up to your expectations. We couldn't read the display when we bought the boat, so took a chance as per the earlier posts in the thread, but that didn't mean that my curiosity stopped there. Maybe i'm a bit of a worrier, but you are wrong if you think i spend my whole time worrying. I have had countless moments of pleasure on the boat in the short time since we bought it in November. Some of those moments have come from sailing it, and many more have been spent when moored up, watching the wildlife and the scenery, exploring the surrounding countryside, or just sat with with one of my other half's excellent cooked meals, a bottle of Old Tom or something similar, and watching tv or a good dvd.
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Many
5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:Froggy,
we have the same problem as you on our newly purchased 2002 nb. I was thinking of starting the same job this week but instead started on the rusty bits on the outside instead using Fertan. The instructions on the Fertan say wash off with water after 24 hrs and my experience is that that is needed to get rid of the black 'dust' that is formed from reaction of the fertan with the rust. Therefore I would insert this task in your list - but then you have to mop it out and dry it again before painting. I think I would also use a 'tolerant' primer - someone is bound to chip in with their recommendations. Given the amount of rust in ours, it must have been underwater for a lot of its life so a coating designed for water immersion would be best - so a 2 pack epoxy would be good - but again I am sure there will be some good recommendations given.
I have not had the experience with Fertan yet to say how much rust needs to be scraped off, but for best performance you should remove all loose stuff - ie any thing that comes off with a sharp scraper.
Ultrasonic thickness testing is usually quite accurate and your surveyor should have tested that area - but I seriously doubt a 20 year old boat with 10mm steel plate would have corroded through from the inside. Scrape it as best you can then treat it. That is what I will be doing.
Many thanks for your advice.
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20 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
The difference between a 20 year old steel boat and a 40 year one is:-
A) The level of maintenance
The thickness and quality of the steel
C) A regular survey
D) none of the above
E) Something else
F) 20 years
Don't phone in, it's just for fun.
Possibly F, dependent on A
But i'd still be interested in somebody confirming whether the steps in my top post are the correct ones, because i want to get stuck into this job on Monday.
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9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
Early 80's.Dry most of the year, paint could have been better (obviously)
That's a fair bit older than hours, which is 1997 build. Good luck with the results, if the formula 1mm of rust = .1mm of loss then hopefully you will have no serious issues. I've wondered (during my worrying moments
) how worthwhile the survey's ultrasonic measurments are, and how effectively they can differentiate sound metal from rust on the other side of the plate, i.e. the inside of the boat.....
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1 minute ago, rusty69 said:
Yes, engine room, counter floor. I will find out after the surveyor has been.
Please keep me posted. How old is your boat and did you have standing water on an unpainted surface like we have had?
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5 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
That's what I was doing a few weeks back. I'm now Sat under a crane waiting for a surveyor
That's worrying - and you know that i already have more than enough worries! ;-)
So what did you find? I'm aware that 1mm of rust is equivalent to only about a tenth of a mm of actual metal loss, but still don't want to weaken the structure unnecessarily by chipping away at partially rusted stuff. If the Fertan does what it claims it should prevent further rust advance in this anyway. I'm guessing you found some serious plate loss? Was it in your engine bilge?
19 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:Mine needs doing. To do it properly the first thing to do is remove the engine.
There's no way i'll be doing that! I will use rollers or spray cans to get to the drip tray under our engine, and also our now redundant mud box.
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49 minutes ago, Harpur Hill said:
Clap boat?
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Well, this job is overdue. We bought the boat in November with standing water in the engine bay, and although for some of this time it's been dry, with one application of Fertan applied, we now want to get the job over and done with. So, would i be correct in assuming that these are the requisite steps:
1. hoover out any loose debris
2. apply degreaser
3. remove degreaser with warm soapy water
4. liberally apply Fertan and allow to dry
5. hoover out any loose debris
6. one coat of primer
7. two coats of bilge paint with rust inhibitor additive
I've been advised to 'remove loose rust' by one boatyard. I'm reluctant to start chipping away at rust. Would i be doing the right thing to interpret this literally and just remove rust that is literally loose, i.e. flakes that have come away from the steel and can be brushed/hoovered out?
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20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
Google a word comprising the loud noise heard during a storm plus what you have recently purchased. There is no moderation and you can say and discuss what you like. The result is that a lot of swearing and personal insults go on. Free to join, just like this place and some of us are members of both.
12 minutes ago, rusty69 said:Crack pipe?
Thundery Boat Full Of Worrying Problems?
I guess I'll pass on that forum, I spend far too much time lost in the Web as it is, and besides, you lot are a great, and a treasure trove of useful advice.
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44 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
I agree and am very pleased he did not ask in the other place. By now the comments would have been both ripe and forthright.
What's this other place you speak of, is it some esoteric society for the initiated? Do you have to have a certain amount of greenies to join?
I appreciate everyone's help and good wishes but have to make the point that my funds are very tight at the moment and if I could easily fund a replacement engine, should the case arise, my worries would be almost nonexistent.
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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:
Ok UPDATE:
I awarded Froggy three different emojies, cancelling each in order to award the next, and his reputation rose by one for each positive emojie, just like getting a greenie. The negative emojies made no change to his reputation.
Greenie awarded for being the subject of my experiment, and his 'noticfications' tab probably filling up!
Well geenie gratefully accepted Mike, my wallet is near empty and I'm already a third of the way through the single malt I got for my birthday.
It was a useful experiment actually, because maybe the neutral emojis are acceptable if they don't affect rep, although in the absence of negative emojis some people might award the neutral ones as a form of disapproval.
I'd have awarded you a greenie for the experiment, but they don't seem to work on the mobile site, at least on my Windows phone, Admin please note.
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1 hour ago, Eeyore said:
Odd that the Barrus header tank wasn't fitted when the engine was changed. Perhaps it was to big, which would explain the modification to the bmc tank.
Yeah, interesting indeed. Significant changes were made in the engine bay, since with the original engine the coolant was drawn in from the cut and we now have a redundant mud box etc Maybe there just wasn't room for the Barrus tank without significant bodging, or maybe it was just a case of the existing tank being perfectly serviceable way back in 2002 when the boat was only 5 years old. It was certainly a good bodge because there's no evidence of water seeping from the additional union.
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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:
The problem is that unless anyone knows the boat and its history how can you or anyone else tell if its been recondition. I would have thought there are far more important and pressing things to concern yourself about a boat that is new to you than worrying if an apparently perfectly serviceable engine has been reconditioned.
Don't worry about it - just enjoy using it and come back when (not if) it start to play up. Probably in over 10 years for the engine and a few months or years for the batteries.
Ok, point taken, I need to delve further into the philosophical teachings of Buddhism.
But nevertheless I'll be sure to let you all know if I spot that decimal point on the display! -
2 hours ago, Ray T said:
@Froggy, I took my life in my hands, donned life support systems and went into "the pit of doom" (otherwise known as the garage) and found this. I rarely throw anything away in case it may come in use! Looking at the picture of your header tank I think the pipe to the left of the central one may be a non standard addition. As before it is yours for P & P, it is of little use to me. PM me to sort out finer details.
Wow. That looks like our tank minus, as Richard notes, one outlet! You may well be right about the other outlet being an aftermarket addition; when i was applying some Araldite yesterday i wondered about the reason why one appears to have a washer and nut attached. I'm now curious to remove the pipe and see how it has been bodged, if in fact that is the case. I'm very interested in your tank Ray, it would save some hassle since you can see from my original photograph that there is minimal space between two of the isolator switches to fit something with even marginally larger dimensions, and re-siting would also be problematic. Let me see what the original fitters have to offer, assuming they reply to my email. If they have a brand new tank hanging about then obviously i would opt for that, but otherwise i would be happy to pay you a few quid for the one you have.
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13 minutes ago, Heffalump said:
Even better, get proper butter and don't keep it in the 'fridge!
(Our one 12v socket has proved very useful for recharging our phones though! We were going to get an electric cool box to use on that socket in lieu of the fridge, but are probably going to put the money toward a more power-efficient fridge instead).
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5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:
Its only a source for concern if:-
a. you are a compulsive worrier.
b. There are other symptoms that suggests all might not be well.
I suspect a applies and from what you say b does not.
The service interval varies from make to make and sometimes model to model. It could be anything between 100 hours and 300 hours. The manual has chapter and verse.
You guessed correctly.
5 hours ago, X Alan W said:We service our processor unit every 200hrs which is usually every month /5weeks as it works roughly the hrs the guys do 40 & up per week. As an aside I dont think you would achieve that number of hrs leisure boating from 1957 to 1972 I boated commercially & hotel boated & although not sure I don't think my engine hrs reached 43 K as my calculation equate to 5375 days /767.8 weeks & 14.7 years running for 8 hrs every day at a litre an 'hourish' fuel consumption I shudder at the thought of the fuel bill
Fair point, but still nobody has come back to me regarding the possibility that the engine may have been reconditioned when it was installed and had the control panel from the reconditioned engine installed at the same time. Incidentally, i forgot to mention that the engine originally fitted to the boat was not a Barrus Shire/Yanmar, so in answer to somebody else's suggestion further up the thread (i forget who) the control panel will not have clocked up the hours from the original engine.
Great news as far as i'm concerned. So, on to other things.
The thickness and quality of the steel
What's the latest thinking on toilet tank treatments?
in General Boating
Posted
Ok, i know this has been done before because i've read a couple of threads in the past, but there didn't seem to be anything like a consensus so would be interested in knowing current views. We have a Mansfield Traveler. Both the pump and the seals have failed and we will resolve these in the coming months. In the meantime we are flushing with water from a bottle and sealing the bulb with dampened tissue. Incidentally, the latter is very effective at preventing smells and also makes it much easier to flush solids with a small quantity of water. Nevertheless, the toilet smells when the seal is broken, and neither Elsan Blue or Odorlos are much use, despite the latter claiming to eliminate odours 100%. We've asked a few boaters and some seem to find bio detergent to work well. I'd be interested in hearing peoples' views on this and have added a poll to the topic.