barmyfluid

Actually it's a poor mans pursuit, at least how I do it! It's not comparable as far as artistic results go, as I do weird historic stuff with paper negatives really old bellows cameras, but I've bought world class 35mm film cameras for pennies in charity shops, and coupled with £2 worth of film developed in rotgut coffee and vitamin C, the results would cost you many hundreds of quids worth of digital to equal in terms of resolution and tonal range. If you cared about that stuff. Unless you're actually printing with an enlarger (which is wonderful), film scanners can be pricey, though I've never paid more than £10 for charity shop examples. It's a nice pastime, and keeping vintage cameras working and learning the historic skills of silver photography is similar to other, er, 'niche' activities people get up to

...and ever heard of having your house repossessed by the bank? Tens of thousands of families per year have: http://www.ticfinance.co.uk/how-many-repossessions-uk/ Generally speaking, " buying rubbish and spending a fortune on it because they don't know what they are doing" is going to end in tears no matter what it is you're buying, but the massive burden of debt that most property represents can drag you down to the absolute bottom through no fault of your own and no matter how canny you buy, nothing can ruin a dream like a house and a few bad rolls of the dice can....

It's not rocket surgery, learning new skills and the feeling of self worth from fixing/building things is great.

This is entirely true (unless you maybe buy and maintain something historic, tin hat time...), and to directly answer the OP question, no it doesn't stack up if you're talking spreadsheets, but it may of you're talking lifestyle and investing in a better one. To rebalance the negative/positive scales however, remember that b&m isn't the only way to earn on investments, it's a good one, but not the only one (and not immune from disaster/calamity), especially as the op is young, earning and has plenty of years he could be putting savings away.

No, they sold to my cousin for a pittance, they already owned the van, think they'd used their house profit in a couple of years. However, your point works for me, I used the profit from my first house to buy this flat outright (I'd have bought a boat then but was concerned in case he got ill and I'd have to leave it a long time, which was prescient), and should clear some profit on this sale. Property buying/selling/ownership is probably the most consistent way to earn money and to secure your future, no doubt about it, though the op may not reap the same pre-boom windfall with his new build. It's not, however, the magic key to everyone's happiness. If you've family you want to leave an inheritance to, it's a no brainer. My dad left exactly enough for his funeral and a round at the pub, really proud of that..

It's doable, but it's adding debt and the uncertainty of renting to life. Agents can be criminally slack checking references, and bad renters very devious and destructive, nearly all my mates who've rented regretted it to some degree, one even had all her wiring ripped out. Yes, you can pursue damages (of the agents too), pay through the nose for insurance to cover non-payment. If this is something you're willing to risk/deal with, then fair enough, but it seems at odds with wanting to 'get away'. My dear old Dad once said something very similar in a video letter to me, they sold their house in Sheffield 1979 and moved to live in a caravan on the coast, where they lived the rest of their lives, renting (for 30+ years, model tenant, got to admit), living and laughing. "Best move we ever made son". I think the sentiment isn't so much that it's in any way a bad investment/security move to own bricks and mortar, just that we Brits are so incredibly normalised to thinking that that having B&M is the goal for any right minded person, to the degree that many are utterly blinded/dumbfounded by the concept that people may want something different out of life.

Hi - just wanted to say that I've just put my bought and paid for flat on the market with a view to moving onto the local canals, hoping to get around 100k, looking to spend around 30-40k on a boat and spread the rest into diverse 'pretty safe' investments and continue with my self employed work, which doesn't bring much in, but I don't have/lead an expensive lifestyle, I mend and make do and am pretty resourceful. The flat is in a really nice village, very picturesque, but I find myself bored and not feeling like I could ever settle there, and actually feeling trapped and scared when I consider that before long this may be forced upon me. After nursing a partner and recently my Dad through long illness and eventual death, I basically said 'Fxxk it, I'm doing this while I still can'. Renting it out/buying a cheap boat isn't an option practically, and neither would I want to. I'm knocking on 50, and the general response I've had to my plan online is "Nooooo!!!", from friends it's "Yes!!!!". Nobody is wrong, though it's mostly my friends who have the accurate picture of matters of the heart. Also, every other person on the internet seems to have a doomsday cult mentality on the direction this country is heading with regards to care, social security and everything else, and you are making yourself a blank canvas for them to paint their opinions on. They may have points, some things will come to pass, others not, but the negativity is much louder than anything else you'll get, weigh accordingly. With few exceptions, it's a given that property isn't even on same spreadsheet as a boat as far as 'security' (investment, stability, er, security) goes, and though I've plenty of my own, you may as well well just put one cell with the words 'money pit' in it to represent a boat. Running costs may be comparable, but what you get at the other end isn't. It's a terrible idea, everything is more difficult, you'll be up shit creek (boom boom) in the future. You'll regret it if you do, and regret it if you don't. You should definitely do it, and best of luck to you. Andy

There's so much of that last post that I could just take away reference to age and relate to myself right now, though to be fair on myself, I've not led an uninteresting life so far, only got into the property lark in my 30's, and that was at the prompting of my late partner rather than me desiring it, and I've done (and continue to do) my moral duties to loved ones. Absolutely, both as a teenager and right now. Even remember writing it down in one of the legion bedsits of youth. I'm not blind to how vulnerable we are at old age, I'm looking after a dying 80 year old in a rented bungalow! He's also a great role model of trying to find your dreams and risking all to do so. Both he and my late mum grew up in slums, didn't have shoes, proper poverty. They scraped and ground their way into a lovely suburban house, huge garden, remember it well. Still, at the age of 40, to escape the late 70's steel crash of Sheffield and the city life forever they sold for a pittance to a relative, moved into a caravan on the coast, endured some really rough and poor years, and never, *ever* looked back without saying 'Best thing we ever did'. Of course, could all have gone tits up, but they were strong, good people with a dream. That's not something so easy to destroy. Even though we're way OT, I'm glad this thread provoked such interesting responses.

I'd like to thank everyone for the time they put into this discussion, and I don't disagree with any of the advice and sentiments regarding this country, security of property or providing for ones old age one bit really. Thanks Chubby for the heartfelt post - thing is, we've lead quite opposite lives and sound like we're very different people. My dad is the tail end of a decade long string of losses and mortality wake ups (beginning with losing my late partner) and it's more than a feeling of 'could get run over by a bus tomorrow' for me. I'm 48, probably got another 30 years if I'm lucky, really can't see me wanting any more than that, no kids.... Yes, it's bonkers, ill advised, stupid. I did say variations upon - there are lots of them, but at heart viager schemes are all about equity release, which is what I was describing, and it was just a thought. In theory it's a matter of 2 willing parties signing a mutually beneficial contract, not something Joe Conveyance would know about true, but hardly legal rocket science to draw up. I'm not surprised my OP elicited so many responses from people angry, suspicious, afraid of where our country is going with respect to providing for its elderly, cost of housing and general dehumanizing of it's populous, but I have to say this - everyone seems very resigned and depressed by the system but seem to suggest that the only thing to do about it is to run deeper into it's arms, play the UK property game and die comfortably. That's not in any way a bad thing per se, for most people that's doing well and family life, but if you're unhappy and want something different in life, it's a pretty dismal outlook. To quote the great Eddie Hitler "You're born, you keep your head down and then you die - if you're lucky!"

I'm too young, you need to be at least 55. To be honest, I just want rid of that part of my life and I'd like to turn my back on as much of the game as possible. If I didn't have so many good friends in the UK I'd just head off for somewhere where you're not actively persecuted for trying to opt out of 'normal' UK life.

Nope, I'm 48. It wouldn't be a bad option otherwise, did look at it. It was really awful. Thing is, when I first bought a house it was a private sale between me and my boss at work, no estate agents, really easy and stress free, so I know you don't always have to play the game to the nth degree, but I know luck plays a part in it too, you can have problems develop in any situation. I don't see any legal reason why a property/boat exchange couldn't happen, property would always be seen as the more solid deal (more boat for the buck) and there do seem to be companies and people out there doing/seeking it: http://www.homemove.co.uk/forums/narrow-boat-swap-4534.html http://pxboats.com/index.php/sv-fanai/

Thanks for all the replies. I don't disagree with the points, and the security for old age (especially in this political climate) and lack of depreciation was one of my level headed deciding factors in getting it, but renting out right now isn't an option, as that's take weeks I don't have of emptying for storage, arranging the legalities, probably fitting new boiler, shower, and then I'm going to be a 3 hour drive away...it's nowhere near rentable really. Down the line, I wouldn't have the cash to buy a boat then rent either unless I got a loan and risked (and I've been warned off renting by friends who've had non-paying tenant nightmares) rental income to pay it off, which'd put me back into the position of debt that I'm thankfully not in anymore. I have looked a variations of the French Viager schemes, which AFAIK would be contractual and doable in the UK. Something like: Liveaboards in later life who are now having trouble coping with the physical aspects of life on the cut, exchange boat for lifetime contract to live rent free in flat/house but maintain property during that time, property reverts to owner when the last of them pass on, however long that may be. There's certainly no end of people who've sold up property to buy boats, which is the default option, I just had such a crap and stressful time selling, moving, storing, living in my car, trying to buy, falling through, and then another protracted buy that I just wondered what the sidestep situation was. Like I said, it's certainly done, just mostly for luxury boats from what I've seen, and more abroad.

Well. I came *so* close to buying a liveaboard last year after selling my house, but decided to get a small (widebeam sized) flat instead, for all the level headed reasons of security, investment, and not being too far from my elderly dad 'just in case'. I was literally unpacking my last box a few weeks before Christmas when I got a phone call from him detailing a really serious diagnosis. I promptly shut everything up and I've since been his carer full time, operations and radiotherapy, though I've just got a few weeks break. Rest of the year will be helping him pass on as well as can be managed. I'm glad I got the flat, as it really was a matter of turn the water off, lock the door and forget it (didn't go back for 3 months), but despite it's lovely location in the Peak District (biscuit tin views, grade II building) my heart really isn't in it. I really wanted the boat, and getting another mortality wake-up call made me realize that's what I should do while I'm still fit enough, even if it all goes horribly wrong, I hate it and end up a poor pensioner without a pot to piss in. Thinking about it, that's what my Mum and Dad did in 1979, sold up a house they'd scraped and grafted to buy, moved into a caravan by the sea, rented evermore. Wasn't always easy, remember the first 2 years being really rough, but both of them were so happy in the end, dad still is. Will be towards the end of the year or after before I can do anything, but I wanted to think ahead. There are various property/boat swap sites around, but they all seem rich-mans white gin palace for villa on the Algarve type places. Any stories or advice of UK liveaboards who directly swapped/px'd boats for property? It was hellish selling my house, stuff in storage, homeless for 8 months, hellish buying process...would be nice to have an easier process next time. bx

No I don't, that's why I said 'monster', maybe 'monstrosity' would have been clearer to you. It's a different thing though, Baildon doesn't exactly have CB antennas, GRP flybridge and a rack of halogen lights - as far as 99.99% of the world goes, she's a 'really old narrowboat' with all the dent's and features you'd expect, and if they're still interested, there's the history of her origins. Yep, I tend to agree with the boat market being quiet, unfortunately there were quite a few boats that suited me up not long back but I didn't have the house sold in time to go for them.

It's short enough that there is actually a list - it was the comparison to 'historic' Landies, of which there are fahsands and fahsands.

Really not a matter of 'making' anything, I was just asking about about perceptions of un-depreceable value over and above a modern boat. Maybe I'm trying to get as much psychological leverage in place to protect against me buying a house/flat again, and I'm just trying to be canny with what little money I've got. Nothing wrong with that is there?

True, true, though the basic utility of any road going Landy is going to the same regardless of modification, and there are always be those that actually desire a chequerplate monster (that's nailed my colours to the mast!) whereas an unconverted butty is, for the majority of potential buyers, of no real use whatsoever. There are many more people desiring a boat with accommodation and liveability than those wanting one (and being in the financial position to own) for occasional historical display, love, or commercial carrying . I have to ask, while its obvious an un-messed with boat does carry an 'enthusiast' premium, does this actually translate to any monetary premium, or one of easy saleability? The other thing is, I can pull up a list of historical boats, and it's really not that long - there are not that many extant, and no matter how chopped, it's still something of considerable note to have a boat on that list, and that is always going to have a certain value (which is what my OP was about really, the non-depreciation of historical value). How many Series vehicles are still out there? many, many thousands, much more choice and chance of a 'real' one, with new parts still made. BTW, I said Uke banjo - you need to be thinking George Formby, not the kid from Deliverance (BTW, 'enthusiast' rant: duelling banjos is a bluegrass (ie 'modern') style song that the kid wouldn't be seen dead playing, he'd be playing old time clawhammer, rarrrgh, the rivets, the rivets!!!!!)

There wasn't any last survey available or information regarding when that was, and no date on the last engine service. I'm going to be probing further regarding this. I wasn't given names of the surveyors, but I'll be asking.

I spent a couple of hours looking at Baildon today, it's a lovely boat and actually very practical for my needs, a bit of upgrading as and when but nothing too immediate other than an inverter needed. It is however looking a bit uncared for, (though it's obvious how much care it's had over the years), and sounds like it's not been used much for quite some time - I know that's not a good thing. Very seriously thinking about putting an offer in though. 'Decent' historical hull and engine guys have been recommended to me by the marina for surveys - going OT but I was reading on here that only 1 in 12 historical boat buyers have a survey done, and there isn't much confidence in reports. Any advice regarding this? If I had her out (sans survey) for blacking and had it shotblasted (would probably spring for 2-pack), wouldn't any decent shop have enough nous to know if some plating or other hull work was needed anyway? I'd probably have the surveys for peace of mind/insurance/bargaining reasons, plus at this point I'd be a happier buyer myself if there was a report from a few years back, which feeds back into keeping its resale value or resaleability, at least to someone with my thinking, but any for and against points would be most welcomed at this point.

I am really grateful for your replies and advice Alan, I think it's what you said about the the couple and 'what they ought to have been doing' that gives the impression that you think there is only one way to own an historic, and that is to take it to what others would call extreme lengths to preserve and restore, but I respect your point of view. I am in fact an historical restorer and user of transport, musical instruments, valve communication radios and cameras, all of which I use on a daily basis, so I'm not that much out of the fold. https://www.flickr.com/photos/boogiepix/21420725294/in/album-72157651197575265/ A recent picture of Victoria pit I took with a 1940's Graflex large format lens grafted onto a 1930's Ensign pocket folding camera that I'd welded a new back onto so I could use a 1920's qarter plate film holder to shoot paper negatives, a technique from 1841. A complete frankenstien of camera and techniques, but I'm happy - all the bits got used, I learned new historical techniques in the process and it gave something back to today. I'm cool with that. I've a 1930's Slingerland banjo uke that still has the original vellum on it from the Chicago stockyards of the period and is utterly pristine and wonderful. Would I stick an electric pickup on it and paint over the birdseye maple? Of course not. I consider myself a 'moderate' enthusiast

By "I'm not the slightest bit of an enthusiast' I basically mean I'm not like you (an no offense meant by that). The whole tone of your reply seems to say that the only person who is 'good for the boat' and deserves to own it is someone who already has years of experience of owning historic boats and does nothing to it other than try and restore it to its original form or something 'sympathetic'. Maybe they'll introduce a vetting procedure to keep riffraff like me on the Liverpools we deserve.... So putting go faster stripes and halogens on it would be a no-no too then? I was filling Bessie up last week and a young guy came over to talk about her and say how much he loved Series Landies. When I mentioned she was my only wheels he shook his head in amazement, smiled and said 'Mate, I *respect* that!' and walked off. Noted - though I'd never take on a boat that hadn't had the major work done already, which was why Baildon sounded a possible, recent rebottoming/footing etc...not sure why that would have any less of a lifespan than a rebottomed modern boat? Maybe they wanted a floating historic flat. Anything wrong with that?

Yes, 24" was a typo, it's 26". I think anyone can take it to the extreme and say it's a great shame it's not immediately converted back to a butty and only ever used for pulling cargo as a TC pair, plus every shade of shame along the way from it's current state sat in a marina. Back in the real world, i'd be living and working in it 365 days a year, doubtlessly taking great pride in owning and maintaining it. Is that really such a bad thing to do with an historic boat or engine? I appreciate the shared social responsibility of owning and caring for historic items and that they should be used, but not everything can be a floating, working museum owned and operated by cut-born and bred 'naturals', and a compromise can't be that bad. Well, doubtlessly it can..... These are all good points, practical considerations and insights however, I'm most grateful.

Yes - my plan would be to bring a boat up to the Macc canal and pretty much stay there, and at 24" reported draught on a reportedly shallow stretch....hmmm. Taking my tape measure tomorrow!

25hp according to this: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=30351

Thanks for the input so far, all very useful to know. I'm not the slightest bit of an 'enthusiast' as far as working boats go other than an overall appreciation of their history and looks, and I can see straight off Baildon is a mongrel of what she once was, with odd bits like the Dickenson stove being nautical rather than narrowboaty....I can see it's never going to appeal to a purist, but I think for someone who'd like an 'in the spirit of' working boat with at least some proper history it'd appeal....thing is, I do have to live/work aboard whatever I have, couldn't just have a boatmans cabin or live under a tarp on a butty on a 'proper' working boat, so yep, it ticks my boxes. I'll issue my partner with a tazer with instructions to take me down if I reach for my checkbook with glazed eyes.....