Up-Side-Down
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Posts posted by Up-Side-Down
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20 minutes ago, Thames Bhaji said:
I’ve been trying to find out whether Kubota give approval - is there anything you could point me to showing this? Many thanks.I can't drop on it right now but I'll have a hunt around and get back to you.
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1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:
Had a quick word with a couple of tractor mechanics who are of the opinion that it is better avoided, stick to non fame red.
Why?? Always interested to hear reasoned observation or comment. It's just that their opinion is at variance with the world's diesel engine manufacturers who'd be most grateful, I'm sure, to learn about something they'd overlooked!
Comments such as these btw usually turn out to arise from confusion between 1st generation FAME biodiesel and 2nd generation HVO biofuel: two very different products. HVO has the same chemical formula as gas oil only minus the the minerals, aromatics and sulphur. With FAME biodiesel the reaction never totally completes and whilst the methanol and catalyst are washed out of the mix, residues remain and the reaction continues quietly on in the tank!!
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Just now, wandering snail said:
Will be trying HVO in our Perkins M65 the first chance we get.
I think you'll be very pleased with the outcome. We're currently running trials with heritage engines and it has so far been used in both a Bolinder and a Gardner semi-diesel with very satisfactory results. On a hard run along the Bridgewater Canal the Bolinder (powering Spey) reported improved fuel consumption and a significant reduction in BCBs (black crumbly bits) while the helmsman of Skylark (Gardner semi-diesel) complained that whilst off setting a lock in a noisy environment he could no longer tell whether the engine was still running as the exhaust smoke had disappeared!
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1 hour ago, Bosley Dave said:
The marina I'm based at are to stop suppling red diesel and will swap to Crown HVO as a 'green' replacement. Their advice is that you can swap to the new fuel without any problems/issues. I have a c.20 year old Beta Marine engine - has anybody with a similar engine made this change, did you have to make any alterations to your fuel system and have you had any issues? Overall I think the move to more environmentally friendly fuels is great but I want to be aware of any issues/problems up front.
HVO is 100% miscible and therefore you can put any combination of gas oil and HVO in your tank. Comments below re pricing etc are accurate and as the member of the IWA Sustainable Boating Group who has been conducting HVO trials for the past 9 months I can assure you that you have nothing to worry about. Kubota, who make the base engines that Beta marinate, have given full OEM approval for use of HVO in their engines. Beta themselves suggest that you add a water separator and an electric fuel pump for any of the alternative or biofuels that you use in 'their' engines but I would suggest this relates to FAME-based biodiesel. I would be surprised if you didn't already have a water separator fitted already. Which marina is this btw?
Unlike FAME biodiesel their is very little smell from the exhaust and the black smoke is minimal. Not surprising really when HVO has a reduction in NoX of 30%+ and particulates of 85%+.
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9 hours ago, Joe Bourke said:
Moored on the Aire & Calder
I think you will see her working again before too long
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9 minutes ago, Joe Bourke said:
Thank you!
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17 hours ago, Ian Mac said:
Hi Folks, well as Mark99 has said the planning committee have rejected the planning request.
Thanks for all you late letters, there was mention at the meeting that there were about 50 late letters, not quite sure what these were but it all added to the PAC unanimously vote to refuse planning.Not sure if it now has to go to main council, but it is unlikely to be changed there.
However this in my opinion is not the end of the line, as the applicant will not now just lie down, so we need to remain very vigilant.--cheers and Thanks Ian Mac
Don't you think that this is an excellent opportunity to engage with the developers and the planners and, via a Section 106 (planning gain) thrash out a solution that would be to everyones benefit? At this point the developers will be keen to listen to any proposal that gives their scheme legs and, from the point of view of the Canal Trust, its a chance to have a large chunk of the the canal excavated through the proposed site ..... and maybe beyond. Take a leaf out of the H&GCT's book and ask for an affordable house or two at cost from the developers as a way of ensuring future revenue for restoration and eventual maintenance. I've never understood why this development was seen as a threat rather than an opportunity. Am I missing something fundamental?
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2 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:
Okay, so I probably have just made up my mind!
As for the dual panels – that is really neat. Any experience of them out there?
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3 minutes ago, IanD said:
Like these?
https://dualsun.com/en/product/hybrid-panel-spring/
Can't find the cost though...
7x higher cost per kW than rigid panels plus much shorter life, so running a generator is *much* cheaper...
Okay, so I probably have just made up my mind!
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2 minutes ago, IanD said:
Not convinced taking extra measures (water or air cooling) to keep the panels a bit cooler is worth it, even if you could drop the temperature by 20C (pretty unlikely) the power only goes up by 7% -- and a water pump would use up some of this power, fans would use less. Either way you wouldn't gain more than a few percent.
Having looked at what you and Peter have done and though about what would fit (and work with short generator running times) my current plan for hot water is to use both coils of a twin-coil 55l calorifier in the generator cooling circuit (should give >2kW heating according to Dave Jesse's measurements, will also have skin tank to absorb the rest) plus a 2kW immersion heater, 4kW total will raise the water temperature by 60C in an hour of running, 9kW generator provides 2kW to immersion and 7kW to charge batteries (140A limit of Quattro 48/10000). The calorifier will be boxed in under the bed, with the box filled with additional insulation to try and keep the water hot for as long as possible.
Cooling arrangements for flexible panels would be purely for their survival and use would be down to their convenience. Efficiency would be a secondary consideration. I've got an application where their ability to follow the profile of the roof is very important ........ but I'm still not sure I want to trade off their high cost, lower output and questionable longevity. I've got about six months to make up my mind!
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45 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:
Has Exol Pride managed to unload its 8 month old cargo of oil yet?
On https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:193705/mmsi:235065013/imo:7803437/vessel:EXOL_PRIDE the last plot shows up for the day of the breach, with her position in the Ouse. She could be in the canal at the moment, anywhere between Goole and Rotherham but clearly she hasn't been any further afield since 20/12/20.
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2 hours ago, Dave123 said:
There is a photo doing the rounds on Facebook of the two passing below Lemonroyd lock. A reason to be on Facebook if nothing else is😂
Can you share please?
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18 minutes ago, Orwellian said:
Thanks very much for the quick reponse and that's good to hear.
If my memory serves me correctly, that will be her second load since the flow recommenced and she will be in the canal now, not very far off Knostrop if everything is going to plan. There is considerable demand for the sand in Leeds which is why Fossdale will be joining Farndale and Fusedale shortly.
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4 minutes ago, Orwellian said:
I understand the breach is now repaired and the canal reopened so presumably the gravel traffic is now back up and running. Can anyone confirm?
Back in business albeit still running with light loads until the A&C dredging is completed.
Certainly for the Hull - Goole leg you will see Farndale H (and Fossdale H in the near future) on Live Ships AIS (amongst others) so you can monitor progress: https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:6449813/mmsi:232006203/imo:8635332/vessel:FARNDALE_H
I'm not sure whether Fusedale has AIS fitted yet – fan shaft will advise.
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It is generally accepted that a diesel-engined genny can achieve about 30% efficiency. Would anyone like to hazard a guess (or perform a calculation) as what this efficiency becomes when the hot water from the cooling system is fully utilised in the boat.
Going even further out on this efficiency limb, if you take my propulsion engine installed in an internal engine room, potentially how efficient is this when working hard punching a tide, heating the calorifier and putting radiated heat into the boat?
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It's very valuable to open up this debate as there needs to be a way to make electric boating financially accessible if it's to really take off. The parallels with BEVs is obvious! HVO is but an interim solution on the road to 2050 and carbon neutral boating. My knowledge and experience relates pretty much to this interim solution and I make no pretence beyond this. However, I've asked one of the members of the IWA Sustainable Boating Group with 6 years of electric narrow boating experience to hop onto this thread to share his knowledge and perceptions. Hopefully he'll appear soon and support my general assertions and observations with hard fact, rather than have me acting as a conduit.
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4 minutes ago, Keith M said:
First find your competent Marine electrician.
As someone who design electrical drive systems many items will not talk to each other, that in my opinion is why always buy your system from one supplier it may cost a little more but it will work straight of the box.Yes and no. Obviously motor and controller is best bought from the one source but batteries, charger, generator and inverter can be sourced separately. Simply purchasing a cocooned generator without the word 'marine' in its title can half the cost of that item!
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53 minutes ago, Bee said:
Interesting project. If it was me I think I would a) Not bother, or b) install all the new installation alongside the original engine and fit a multi belt drive to the shaft. I don't think it would harm the gearbox. Much of the cost is in batteries and charger so you will have to get that anyway and motor and controller too. Or, and I have seen this done, install all the electric stuff on a separate wing mounted shaft. Steering may be an issue with that though. There are many ways of looking at this. Personally I would either go all electric and fit a hefty generator or tap the local sewer for methane and bottle it and run the Beta on gas, might get a few explosions in the trial stage though.
I understand that Hybrid Marine are no longer keen to be involved with retrofit parallel hybrid systems. As has been said, the way to go is to a serial hybrid system so junk the engine (you'll get a good price for it) and replace it with an electric motor. This is something I (amongst quite a few others) am looking at and at Crick it was interesting to see the choice, and to price up the exercise. I reckon £20,000 would be a realistic figure for a basic conversion, from which you can deduct the value of your existing diesel.
As a member of the IWA Sustainable Boating Group (albeit with responsibility for HVO) the best advice I've obtained from my 'electric colleagues' is to not buy the whole package from one manufacturer. I'm strongly advised to have the confidence to mix and match with the possibility of saving up to a third on the total price. I'm assured that it's not rocket science and that a half decent marine electrician can specify and fit the right combination of kit.
You can certainly spend another £10,000 if you want to go down the lithium route but if you look around at the current parc of electric narrowboats, by far and away the majority them have chosen the half way house of lead carbon batteries for a whole raft of good reasons.
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1 hour ago, rovingrom said:
The new owner (as of late 2020) is Martin Etheridge who is a member of this forum but who has not (yet) contacted the BrumTug Group on F.Book that I run. You should try to contact him through Canal world therefore!
I have PM-ed him but without success!
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On 19/04/2021 at 12:33, rovingrom said:
Hi Martin,
I've only just seen your post from 03 April - welcome to Canal World and the wonderful world of Brum Tugs! It's really helpful to know you are the new owner of IBIS and to know she's on the River Wey. There should be a couple of other Brum Tugs on the Wey and we at the BrumTug Group on Facebook would be immensely grateful to hear if you find them. As far as I know they are:
1. TROS YR AFON: Originally BEAVER (1) and later ASTI. 71376 and possibly still in original 32ft form with long covered hold.
2. NUTHATCH: Originally BEAVER (2) 47299 but extended to 41ft and relicensed as 45879. Possibly still has long covered hold.We have very few photos of IBIS - apart from a recent photo and another posted on the Duck by the previous owner (Sean?), we have only the 2 below. The photo showing IBIS in black (courtesy Joy Arnold) was a very low res pic (12.7 KB) from the time before the cabin was extended. You can see that the name panel from the original all-black colour scheme has been retained, with the pale grey/green painted around it! In the Farmers Bridge photo, IBIS can just be seen behind Brum Tug No.2 EPOREDIA. This is an early photo and even then it seems that IBIS was painted black or battleship grey.
If you are a Facebook user, please come and find us at "BrumTug" - you will be made most welcome!
ColinI've just met the original owner of Ibis who commissioned her and then cruised her for some 20 years. He's keen to tie up with her and her new owner at some point and would be happy to be put in touch. He is not currently a member of this forum. Of interest might be the fact that he was the first author and researcher of the Nicholson Guides and beavered away between 1969 and 1974 boating the entire waterway system putting together the guides we rely on so much today. BTW Ibis did not figure in in this massive undertaking. She came on the scene later!
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52 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:
I can get at least 20 drums in the hold, ballast , green exhaust and smelling of bacon. Who needs a fat boat in the wrong place to make an impact.
I think this is a potential moneyspinner.
On that basis why not drop four IBCs in the hold and get the stuff at a cheaper rate!
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44 minutes ago, dmr said:
It should blend fine with standard diesel, and all its PR says its superior to DinoDiesel in almost every way. The only possible issue is lubricity (so it will probably kill my pump 😀) It might already contain a lubricity additive or maybe we need to add one ourselves, this needs to be clarified.
It's possible that the supplier will not actually sell you a 200l drum, especially if you want it delivered to the boat. I believe you have to have a bunded fuel store to do it legally, or maybe 200 or less gets an exception???. The "free" delivery charge must be significant so maybe if a few boaters get together and get several drums there might be a discount??.
Lubricity has always been at the head of my list of diesel worries since the sulphur has been progressively removed to the point where we now purchase ULSD (the full fat variety is still available for marine use btw).
HVO has much the same (limited) level of natural lubricity as mineral diesel, if anything slightly less as its sulphur content is sub 5 ppm whilst ULSD sits between 5 and 10 ppm. So in common with ULSD it relies on an additive. Something that makes me slightly nervous with regard to the 60s-designed engine that powers my boat. I'd therefore be inclined to include my own additive long-term. Unlike dino diesel, HVO contains no aromatics or minerals which helps with its cleaner burn.
One irony in relation to the addition of 1st generation FAME dino diesel in its current B7 content form is that at only 7% it actually gives a similar level of lubricity as the old full fat, high sulphur stuff.
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1 hour ago, MtB said:
And another question now I'm considering buying a tin of HVO. Will it blend seemlessly with the ordinary diesel currently in my tank or does one need to do a drain and flush to switch over from one fuel to the other? And the same back again if an HVO boat gets caught with no fuel available other than vanilla diesel?
HVO is 100% miscible as in it mixes seamlessly with dino diesel ........ and vice versa!
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2 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:
The problem (well, a related problem) is the conventional diesel still in the tank when you buy HVO.
Good point. However, you will be diluting the B7 element of the mineral diesel to something that is hopefully less than B5 (HVO is fully miscible btw). Extensive trial work done by the likes of Lucas/Bosch/Mercedes back in the 90s demonstrated that at concentrations of B5 and less there were no issues but that mineral diesel should never contain more than 5% FAME biodiesel: a fact that everyone has now overlooked.
Indeed, have a quick look through a contemporary Mercedes handbook and you will see that they still don't warrant their cars at anything over B5. How this plays with what is available at the pumps I've never been able to work out. Incidentally, Mercedes also publish information about the problems likely to be encountered using FAME biodiesel and the list includes all the problems boaters are experiencing and a whole lot more besides.
41 minutes ago, MtB said:Set against this, a lot of boaters are desperately price-conscious.
Fuel retailer: "Sir, you can have 300 litres of normal diesel for 77p a litre, or you can save the planet with HVO for £1.07 a litre, which will be an extra £90. Which will it be?"
Typical tight-wad narrowboater: "Do you really need to ask?"
Comparative prices for HVO v Gas Oil as of the end of last week. New Era (GBF Ltd) are selling 205 litre drums of HVO delivered for slightly less. For those that really acknowledge that there is a climate emergency, there is very little excuse for not changing to HVO!
Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel
in New to Boating?
Posted
Lubricity is potentially an issue with all paraffinic fuels with the sulphur removed and potentially affects ULSD gas oil and HVO alike. Both rely on the addition of a lubricity additive at the refinery. If you have concerns (and they'll be just the same for dino-diesel and HVO) use your own additive or some two-stroke oil.
The irony is that in terms of lubricity, the addition of the current 7% (soon to be upped to 10%) FAME biodiesel to mineral diesel gives a similar level to that once contained in full fat high sulphur diesel. Its just all its other properties that mitigate strongly against its use in the marine environment!