magnetman
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Posts posted by magnetman
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I used W3W via browser on the phone to pinpoint location using their google maps overlay then spoke the location to the call handler. They were happy with this but I now realise that I was at the time about 400m away. I suppose it is handy because if I had not made it to the road access they would have been able to work out where I was.
Does the location of the phone continue to be transmitted for any length of time or is it just during the call?
Not an app or automated system
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13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:
That's a bit like having marine radio but no licence. If I don't have one and still call them will they come.
It is slightly different with a PLB because there would be no way of finding out if it actually works or not. Presumably by registering it one can carry out a controlled test to ensure the hardware is functioning. Same goes for a marine VHF. Regardless of whether you have a radio license you can request a radio test from VTS and find out if anything actually works.
Argument for buying new PLBs I think.
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2 hours ago, MartynG said:
The key being ''using the system'' .
The present arrangements require the boater to pay regardless of whether the boater is using the system.
Not all boats are on C&RT water all of the time so would a system requiring a toll per day on C&RT water be considered fair ?
Collecting that Toll might be a challenge .
I'd definitely go for the toll system. Makes sense and was how the canals were originally operated. Charge related to how much time you spend on that stretch of water.
It makes so much sense More popular areas would be more expensive. Basic economics.
Result may be some underused areas being underfunded but this has got to be better than the whole lot rotting away.
IF people are really enthusiastic then get more more residential moorings on canals and get the funding in.
People who don't like seeing boats (moving or not moving) should not be on canals. There should be a filter of some sort where if you don't like seeing boats you can't be allowed to use waterways.
Boats are what it is all about and in the modern age of expensive housing boats can be a slightly cheaper alternative in some cases.
More moorings needed all we're all screwed.
The policy is the precise opposite of this but presumably this is driven by fuddy duddies and profit driven marina operators with influence.
times change.
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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:
I GUESS it will work, but the information stored on it will relate to another individual - if they call "you" and ask if you are in danger "you" may say no. If they call your relatives and ask if "you" are expected to be in the middle of the North Sea as "your" PLB has been activated and the answer is "no, he is sat next to me". Questions may be asked.
Whilst you lie bleeding to death, they may just file it away as a false alarm.
I do not understand why, having bought one, you would not register it - it is free of any charges, and takes just a few minutes either on-line or via a paper application form (but then you have the cost of a stamp)
Would you buy a mobile phone but then not buy a SIM so you could use it ?
Is it just a case of not wanting officialdom knowing where you are ?
Not at all. I was just thinking about what would happen if tou were in possession of a US type and it was technically not possible to register it. Whether it would work or not.
If you are on land say camping or doing something which takes time it seems likely you would also have a cell phone but it may not be a GPS enabled type.
So my question would be could you call the emergency services and tell them you have an unregistered PLB and your approximate location which they could then cross reference?
The false alarm point is a good one.
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55 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
We are discussing PLBs which are registered to a 'person', vessels use EPIRBs which are similar but much larger and transmit for a minimum of 3 days (a PLB is only 24 hours) They are registered to a specific vessel.
I have no idea if, or how, an EPIRB is transferred, but I'd have thought that a personal PLB would stay with its registered owner until they decide to sell it on ebay - that is when it becomes important to ensure it is a UK compatible on (American post theirs on ebay because they are much cheaper in the US and, unknowing UK ebayers see a bargain)
Will the PLB Itself actually work even if it isn't registered? I know it is a legal requirement but at the end of the day if you have a serious accident and are going to die soon unless someone comes to find you it seems to me that legal requirements are going to be a lot further down the list of priorities than 'does the hardware work'.
4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:See earlier in the thread :
Calling 999 from an Android
If you need to call the emergency services (999) from an Android device, Google automatically provides your GPS location.
This could cause some confusion. When I needed an ambulance for myself I was aware that they would not be able to get to my location and I was fit enough to remove myself to a location with road access. I used the what3words system with location of closest road layby but I must admit I did not realise the phone was telling them where I was when I actually made the call.
Does the location function of a 999 call also happen if you are asking for fire service? I called the fire brigade the other night as someone had petrol bombed the royal mail delivery vans close by but I never thought they would reference it and think my location was where the event was occurring.
Similarly I have called police out before for assaults on the towpath which is within sight but not actually where my boat is.
I suppose it is sensible for the emergency services to get this sort of data. It adds up.
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1 hour ago, 1st ade said:
Don't get me started on the number of Blue Light operators that then start a "Do you have What-3-Words" type discussion - If it wasn't an emergency, I'd scream down the phone at them "look at your console"...
I used what3words on an ambulance call for myself and it worked very nicely. Sometimes (for example if you are inside a metal boat) your phone may not have the location exactly correct. Also not everyone keeps their GPS on the phone switched on at all times. I know I don't and suspect others also turn it off.
Does this iphone system also work with android phones and does it automatically turn on the GPS if it had been previously switched off to conserve battery power?
I don't use apple products
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1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:
You need to keep up! It already is more to moor, if you pardon the rhyme. My EOG mooring, supposedly half the CRT online going rate, is about two thirds the cost of my licence, which means the full rate at a CRT mooring would be well above the licence.
Which is why I believe CRT is going to hammer CCers, as it no doubt regards them as being provided with free online mooring all year.
I was keeping up! You need to read what I wrote !
For a LOT of boat owners the cost of a license is less than the cost of a mooring because they don't need a mooring! Point being if you don't ever moor the boat anywhere then you can't really practically use it. Anchoring is not allowed on canals I don't think.
My CRT license is 1/20 of the cost of my CRT mooring but I know this is an very unusual situation.
CRT bored meeting:
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Another thing if you are in range of an AIS service such as Marine Traffic you could carry a net buoy AIS beacon. Switch it on if you need it then call 999 and mention you are the net buoy called X and your general location. They are very accurate.
There may be a licensing problem with this solution but at the end of the day if you get into trouble rapidly giving out your location (which may be moving if you are on water) is more important than whether you are using a technically illegal product.
McMurdo emergency AIS £500
Net buoy AIS beacon £80...
I have one. They do work and are very accurate.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265928474668
Seller will program your details including a phone number into the transmitted data.
(ETA I just checked and the UK seller is no longer doing these so perhaps more awkward to get it programmed. I bought mine from a radio bloke in Essex via eBay).
Disclaimer: these are not authorised for use on the AIS system. I think as a line of defence in the event of serious accident it may be worth carrying one.
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Another point which is technically interesting is whether one of the elderly people trackers would in fact send location to a 999 call handler. I think perhaps it wouldn't as they are probably not geared up to receive SMS. You can probably only program in other mobile phone numbers so a direct contact with 999 sending location may not be possible.
It is quite interesting. Perhaps the locator beacon mentioned above is a far superior option.
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Don't get one of these
3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:I think the phone needs a, sim, though credit probably isn't required
Interesting looking on Google about it as some say it works some say it doesn't.
I had to use 999 the other night because of a vehicle fire nearby but I didn't think at the time of using one of my phone's without sim.
It may be that this works in the US but not here.
Anyway a SIM is free. I believe that even if you have no signal on your own network the phone is allowed to use other networks for emergency.
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I -think- you can call 999 or 112 with a mobile phone with no SIM in it.
Would need checking.
36 minutes ago, LadyG said:I think that a small clamshell phone on a different network to my other phone, maybe EE might help, my main phone looks too vulnerable and too big to carry all the time.
I used to have a clamshell, I think I have to buy a SIM, that connects to EE, and does not need any further payment.
As usual the product details are all using acronyms and assume you know what they are.
Some have a quickdial to people you know. That's really not a lot of good.
One has an SOS button, but does not say if this is dialling 999.
It's no good phoning a friend or relation, it has to be emergency services, I usually know my postcode as I write it down every time I move.
I get the impression the GPS tracker is quite expensive.
The one on Amazon is £120.
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What about a GPS tracker with a sim card in it and an emergency button?
You can program it with 3 contact numbers to which it will send its location (assuming gps and cell network coverage). Also has two way voice
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Carephone-SOS-Tracker-Button-Communication-Black/dp/B01MZ0MYZE
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3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
Ang about. What happened to that marvelous stove you was telling me about the other day?
You know, the one that stays in all night.
That's the fire on the country estate boat. I was talking about my inner city boat which has a different type of fire on it.
What I mean is you can emit smoke from the chimney when starting up the fire and there is no limit to the number of times one can start a fire up.
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10 hours ago, Paul C said:
The boat's cold inside?
Not necessarily. I start my fire up in the morning with kindling and the boat is still warm from the coals staying alit overnight. I could start it up once an hour if I wanted to while retaining a comfortable interior temperature.
I can see tax coming on solid fuel products.
In another topic the grants. It is interesting that the wording in the legislation specifically excludes vessels being described as dwellings in order to acquire government grants for replacement of heating appliances.
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Surely it should cost far more to moor the boat than it does to license it for cruising. After all the process of mooring is not something you can opt out of. Charge good money for it ! It makes sense. Plenty of marinas make good money out of the canals so why not the CRT?
If they could make full use of their land for provision of "on line" moorings and make having a mooring an essential part of owning a boat or add a premium to license equivalent to paying for a mooring it seems to me the second figure there could be significantly higher than the first figure.
There is an elephant in this here room.
Boater users need to be paying more for the privilege of using the system.
There is surely a limit to how much the CRT can continue subsidising cheap housing. Construct more on line residential mooring sites. People with local connections and who can prove need will be able to claim off the state to pay for a residential mooring so the poverty thing could be eradicated and the canal slums cleared. Anyone who is just in it because it is so cheap can pay more for it.
People who don't want to see boats (moored or moving) on canals can get caravans.
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What would happen to the great wall of Tod? Will it be kept as a hysteric monument?
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Closing the K&A would be a good start then the Regents section of the Grand Union.
Ideally unless people want to pay to live in an area and this bring in revenue to the navigation authority it would be best to get rid of the areas clogged up by residential users paying virtually nothing and concentrate funding on areas where people actually want to go boating.
I feel that the model which assumes "more boats must be good" is flawed.
Something will need to be done.
I was wondering where to set up the canal boat scrap yard. If things change significantly there is going to be a lot of steel scrap about.
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:
The engines must be removed or made inoperable before it can be classed as a (HMRC) houseboat.
C&RTs own 'Houseboat' definition is their own 'internal' definition (and nothing to do with the Government definition) & is very different in that it does allow for a houseboat to have its own propulsion and, to be allowed to (infrequently) move.
So are you saying that a boat with a motor in it can't be zero rated for vat?
It is my understanding that you can get zero rating for a boat with a motor in it if it fulfils certain criteria.
I may be wrong on this and am happy to be corrected.
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5 minutes ago, Paul C said:
I don’t think the above posts are relevant - a “thing” can be both at once, being something doesn’t exclude it being something else.
So a narrowboat for CCing can be both a residence and a pleasure boat.
I feel there is quite an interesting security of tenure question here.
Obviously a boat can be a residence and a pleasure boat (my boats are) but the technical question of eviction or forced removal is interesting.
21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
You can still have a residential boat that has propulsion capability and meets the HMRC requirements for a Residential BOAT rather than a HOUSEBOAT.
You can get zero rated for VAT on boats which have working engines if they were previously used as commercial craft. I think HMRC calls these houseboats but without knowledgeable people adding some information here this is probably inconclusive.
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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
All these 'zero rated' boats MUST be built to be a primary residence otherwise they do not get the zero rating irresepective of their size.
There is a big difference between the HMRC definition of a Houseboat and their definition of a Residential Boat.
The first bit is not correct because you can get a houseboat certificate (HMRC approval) for boats which were built as commercial craft and later CONVERTED for residential use.
I also know of a boat which was originally intended to be a cruising widebeam but never had the engine fitted. The boat was sold and a later owner (on my suggestion) applied for and was granted zero rating for VAT and awarded a houseboat certificate by the CRT.
The boat was not built for residential use. It was converted at a later date for this purpose.
I suppose "built to be a primary residence" can be interpreted in different ways.
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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:
I'm sure you are aware of the HMRC 'specifications' for a residential boat (They have been discussed ad-infinitum) and a residential boat of a certain minimum size being Zero rated for VAT
I was not referring to the houseboat question and yes I know only too well about the VAT question.
I was specifically referring to the concept of having a boat which is not recordable as a houseboat but was in fact made to be used as a primary residence.
I suppose without a framework to allow this it can't happen.
1 minute ago, Machpoint005 said:A boat with an engine is a boat. No legal definition is needed for something so blindingly obvious.
You can get a houseboat certificate for motorised boats if the boat meets certain criteria.
I would argue that a boat is a boat regardless of whether it is powered by an engine..
Is a rowing boat not a boat?
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Do you have a power meter on your incoming mains supply?
You can get devices which record the consumption onboard. If you combined this with the amount of power accepted by your batteries via the solar panels then presumably you could get an accurate estimate of how much actual power you are using each day.
Washing machine?
I suppose you are going to say you have a shower as well. Talk about high carbon footprint.
And a solid fuel appliance!
Shocking!
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It isn't "having fun" considering the questions of security if tenure if a boat is the only place you have available to live in. It is actually rather important.
As for what the boat was originally made for I wonder if there are any circumstances where it could be shown to be for living on.
Perhaps by demonstrating the equipment contained in the boat one could show that it was built primarily for living on rather than as a pleasure craft.
This is for boats with engines. Obviously there are houseboats but boats with engines seem a whole lot more sensible and lots of people (including me) live on this type of vessel.
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It seems likely to just be a tactic to find out if the boat is occupied on a regular basis.
Or someone erroneously thinks that people living on boats are doing so because of terrible hardship. I suppose there might be some people who think living on a boat would the last resort but on the other hand there are some people who actually actively want to live on a boat. Maybe they are rare.
It could be an assumption of poverty thing.
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Not looking good for us
in General Boating
Posted
I didn't mean I would prefer the toll system personally. If it came in then my boating would get more expensive. I was just saying that I would go for it in terms of managing the system. Not a personal preference but as with everything else the individual impact on people is irrelevant. It is the overall impact and potential positive or negative outcomes for the group which matter.