IanD
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Posts posted by IanD
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21 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:
You mean the ones that pop up like meerkats as you approach, then grudgingly acknowledge your existence before returning grumbling to their lair as they found nothing to shout at you about? I’m always extra jovial with those
No, the ones who shout at you even though there isn't anything to shout about -- apart from their rubbish mooring techniques...
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1 minute ago, Victor Vectis said:
Yeahbut......
It's got a big hole for a girly button.
It has. Also lots of other things that hairshirt "we don't need no steeenking modern technology" boaters will hate, as well as no rivets or brass to polish... 😉
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3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:
Its easier to stop 14 tones moving from a standstill than to stop it once its doing 1mph. Consider laying a hammer on your thumb, even a lump hammer, now lift it a foot and drop it on your thumb.
Also true. Either way, it's a crap way of mooring, and if people do it they can't justifiably complain to boats passing on tickover (or slowly)...
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5 minutes ago, PD1964 said:
Are you saying your having an ugly boat built, as that’s what the Thread is about😂
I sincerely hope not... 😉
(anyway, posts saying "no" are just as relevant as ones saying "yes", this is a *discussion* forum not a soapbox :-)
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Here's a good starting point -- which no doubt some will object to on the grounds that "it's not a Josher"...
It's not -- and it won't have rivets either... 😉
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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:
And so much slack it dangles in the water
At least then there's less force to pull the spike out than with a tight right-angled line, which has a huge force multiplier (basic trigonometry)...
I'm having spring line anchor points fitted 😉
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1 hour ago, Markblox said:
On the western part of the K&A a couple of weeks ago I had spent at least 30 mins on tick over because of the huge numbers of boats moored up and as I went past one broad beam I was asked to slow down! I told her that I was on tick over and maybe she should put a spring on it. Wow, the fuse was lit, she then suggested I put into N. She can fcuk off. I am amazed that even boats on permanent moorings don't put a spring on the lines. So much better.
Lots of parts of the system have the same problem, Nantwich and Braunston come to mind from recent trips. I had exactly the same complaint and gave exactly the same response a couple of weeks ago... 😞
Lots of boats don't know how to moor properly (especially using spikes) even without springs, and wouldn't know what one was if you hung them with it -- they use single lines almost at right-angles to the bank with single spikes, and then they wonder why these get pulled out as the boat is pulled backwards and forwards by boats passing at tickover...
It doesn't help that few canal boats have spring line fixings, so you need four spikes (or eight if doubled) and people don't bother.
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30 minutes ago, magnetman said:
I thought Baron belonged to Pete Wakeham at Denham. Josher with 3 pot Bolinders engine.
Not in 1986 it didn't... 😉
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2 minutes ago, magnetman said:
Indeed. Slightly annoying for anyone tied up !
Must be pretty wicked doing 9mph on a narrow boat though.
Also needs a hull which is narrower and has shallower draught and much finer lines than any narrowboat -- otherwise there's no chance of getting it up to the speed where the soliton effect happens...
I've done well over 9mph in a big-engined (Bolinder 1043) trad boat (Kate Snow's "Baron", downstream on the River Lea at 2am... 😉
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5 minutes ago, magnetman said:
Soliton wave effect.
They did experiments years ago with high speed horse drawn boats but it does need a sensibly shaped channel. A good breakfast bowl shape would probably be okay but a saucer shape is not all that useful.
ETA mentioned in this Fred
Also note how damn fast you have to travel, even if you can make the soliton wave happen -- *way* faster than 4mph... 😉
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1 hour ago, David Schweizer said:
It's not bands as such which people object to Graham, but the type of band and the level of over amplification. In the early days, I seem to remember there being a number of acoustic Folk and Jazz Bands which did not impinge on conversation. However, I am sure that people will be pleased to observe that the oganizers have listened to the concerns about the loud music, which has crept in over the past few years.
When we called at the Red Lion in Market Drayton a few weeks ago there was a solo guitarist/singer playing (amplified) outside. You could hear him a hundred yards away down the street...
Needless to say, we didn't stay... 😞
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17 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:
Given these figures, perhaps one answer is to reverse the trend towards ever bigger diesel engines.
I suspect that a 20hp diesel engine pushing a boat at 3mph might we'll only require 4hp of its maximum. If one then compares the cost of diesel consumed with the cost of running an electric boat, the difference would be even smaller.
The real reason such big engines are installed is probably because -- unlike the old low-speed traditional engines -- they don't like running close to maximum rpm/power all the time, so oversizing them keep wear/noise/vibration down. As you say typical canal cruising uses about 3kW/4hp (this is backed up by lots of measurement data), you only need a lot more than this in emergencies or on fast-flowing rivers. A Beta 43 (42hp/2800rpm) will typically cruise around 1400rpm (3hp), and is unlikely to ever run faster than 2200rpm (20hp) even on rivers -- which non-coincidentally is what a lot of the trad engines put out, and there were never seen as underpowered.
There's also the "market expectation" -- everyone expects engine sizes to follow the manufacturer's recommendations, so any boat with a smaller engine is seen as "underpowered" even if it isn't really...
The biggest fuel savings with a hybrid boat are not just from the higher efficiency but also even bigger savings when going more slowly past moored boats and when stationary in locks, this is where the ~50% fuel saving comes from even ignoring solar. This isn't justified by cost (given the higher boat cost) but it is greener, especially if you cruise less (a few hours per day) when at least in summer solar can provide all the power needed.
(but not with heavy cruising or in winter, which is why an expensive generator is needed).
1 minute ago, Ronaldo47 said:I remember reading some years ago that the optimum speed in a canal is the speed of a wave in the canal. Travelling at the same speed as your bow wave results in a sort of resonance where you effectively surf your bow wave. I don't know if this is strictly correct, but have used this as a rule of thumb unless circumstances dictate otherwise, such as where there is a very strong cross-wind needing high revs to stop getting blown into the bank.
It's not really correct, a canal boat is not a bulk carrier -- power always increases rapidly (at least cube law) with speed, and even faster when you start to make a breaking wash -- which is really what limits speed on canals.
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12 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:
Sure, there are plenty of noisy diesels out there, but some of them are wonderfully quiet. Of course not as silent as may be possible with electric, but a gentle 'purrrrr' that is not intrusive at all.
Electric will give you a slightly quieter experience than with a well silenced direct diesel driven NB and it may save on fuel consumption, but unless you buy everything pre-used and are competent to design and install everything yourself, how much more will it cost than a simple diesel driven boat?
How does the price of a cocooned super silent diesel generator compare to that of a propulsion diesel engine?
That aside, the main reason why I wouldn't consider an electric narrowboat is the thought of having to go slowly everywhere. People who can only manage a few weeks each year on their boat and who want to experience as much of the canal network as possible during that time, want to travel at 4mph when it's appropriate to do so and over a months motoring, any saving made by going electric would be inconsequential when compared to the other costs of ownership.
For people with deep pockets who spend most of the year aboard and have the time to pootle slowly and silently everywhere I can see the attraction, but that's not me I'm afraid.
I really don't understand where you're getting the idea from that (properly designed) electric/series hybrid boats are slow...
15kW/20hp is what a Beta 43 (into a matched prop) puts out at 2200rpm, which is an engine speed I suspect very few narrowboats ever cruise at -- even on rivers -- since it makes big waves and plenty of noise and vibration to boot.
As I've said many times, a hybrid boat makes no *financial* sense because the fuel savings are swamped by the much higher installation cost, largely due to the generator. Right now it's a luxury purchase for people with deep pockets who are willing to pay a premium to have a much nicer boating experience, it probably adds about 15% to the cost of a new high-end boat which is less than the cost adder for such a boat over lower-quality ones from less reputable builders.
If they're also concerned about being "green" then there is a big CO2 saving, maybe 50% if you cruise for long hours every day, 100% in summer of you cruise much less and can rely on solar.
This will only change (and make financial sense for most people) in the distant future when the cost of batteries has dropped further and charging points mean the generator isn't needed -- exactly the same position as for BEV vs. hybrid cars.
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1 minute ago, David Mack said:
But don't diesel electric trains need the diesel engine running all the time? The term 'hybrid' seems perfectly acceptable for cars with electric motors, battery storage and an internal combustion engine. Why not the same for 'electric' boats?
Which is what I always call them, because it's what they are until canalside charging is widespread. Only people pretending they don't rely on a diesel generator call them "electric"... 😉
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7 minutes ago, Markblox said:
I'm sure someone will be along soon to diss it and make out it's the same as a boat with a diesel engine because it has a genny.
It is, if you think that a noisy diesel running inefficiently for 8 hours a day and a heavily silenced generator running efficiently for at most 1 hour per day -- or not at all in some cases -- are equivalent... 😉
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6 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:
Electric boats (without a diesel engine) might struggle on a river when going against the current, not for thrust of course, but to replace the hugely increased electrical consumption.
Electric canal boat owners have mentioned that 3mph through the water is the optimum for efficiency and to make the battery last a reasonable length of time. There are many times on a river when 3mph would see you not going anywhere against the flow.
Perhaps that's why the diesel generator is essential.
If you take the boat I'm having built as an example, it will run at full power (15kW/20hp) for something over 2 hours without running the generator (or allowing for any solar) -- and though 3kW is "normal cruising power" on a still canal, it would be pretty unusual to need full power for that long, even on the Trent or Ribble Link. Running the generator continuously roughly doubles full-power runtime to about 4 hours.
A generator is needed if you want to cruise all day for several days in a row -- propulsion use is typically 14kWh/day and solar yield is about 7kWh/day in summer, so about 1hr/day of generator running is needed. Also essential in winter when solar produces much less power (maybe 1.5kWh/day).
Until network-wide charging points are rolled out, an "electric" boat will need an onboard generator unless you travel slowly or not for several full days or only in summer.
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56 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:
But why do some boaters behave like this, is it selfishness or ignorance or what?
They're not in any kind of hurry to get anywhere and happy to pootle along slowly, and they don't see why anyone else should want or need to go any faster than them. Same principle as sticking in the middle lane and refusing to move into the (empty) inner lane.
I don't hang about but if I find a boat behind me is catching up, I'd rather pull over and let them pass than have to keep looking over my shoulder all the time -- it's simply polite, and I've done it at least once per trip, often for someone who doesn't care about making a big breaking wash -- but it's not my job to be the canal police...
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57 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:
What about Wild Boar? If it’s anything like pig it can’t be pleasant 🤢
Our spaniel hated fox poo, would avoid it like the plague, where as our airedale would roll in it like it was Chanel no.5
Some dogs do love rolling in fox poo. It's not nice when you run over some with a rotary mower though... 😞
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On 10/06/2022 at 19:27, Mike Hurley said:
Cat shit is worse by far. You all know how i know that.
Cat shit bad, fox shit worse... 😞
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15 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:
I used 15% because that is a good average for the efficiency of most of the flexible panels currently installed. You can, of course, spend 5x as much to gain another 5% in efficiency, but that will give you just an extra 5 watts per m² on a gloomy mid-winter's day. Very much a diminishing return for ones investment and for those for whom money is not a barrier, but then, for the benefit of 'silent' running, some will seemingly spend whatever it takes.
I am all for people spending their money on what brings them pleasure, providing they don't insist that everyone should travel everywhere at no more than 3mph and graciously let people by who wish to cruise at 4mph when it is safe and acceptable to do so.
15% is about right for CIGS panels, but most semi-flexible panels using mono silicon are over 20%, the same as rigid panels, and are no more expensive than CIGS -- super-flexible panels might be needed for installations on things like yacht canopies, but not for narrowboats. But as I said *any* non-rigid panels are far more expensive because they're made in far smaller volumes, so if cost matters rigid panels are the sensible option.
People who ignore boats behind them who don't want to travel as slowly as they do are the equivalent of MLMs on the motorway, we got stuck behind one a couple of weeks ago... 😞
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39 minutes ago, MtB said:
And comprehensively debunked in the comments section attached below the article!
I'm not sure that "debunked" is correct. The comments correctly point out that the LFP batteries usually used in boats aren't a fire risk, the lithium-ion (NMC and similar) chemistries used in portable items and cars have the ignition problem, and that insurers who lump the two together from ignorance should distinguish between them.
But anyone installing (cheap!) ex-EV lithium-ion packs into a boat to save money will almost certainly have (justified) insurance problems, especially with a DIY installation -- I doubt that any reputable boatbuilder would be stupid enough to do this...
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On 11/06/2022 at 21:10, Bargebuilder said:
Indeed they are, but the less ugly stick-on versions are very much lagging behind in the efficiency stakes. The rigid panel versions may, before too long, reach the golden 50% efficiency figure, but they don't look particularly tidy on a boat's roof, and the real life efficiency would be much lower unless they were able to track the Sun's position in the sky, which is practically impossible on a narrowboat.
Even in the summer, the Sun is only high in the sky and anywhere near the ideal angle for a horizontal panel during the middle segment of the day. In the Winter, any solar radiation that does penetrate the cloud comes in at such a low angle that much of its potential is lost entirely.
Improvements in efficiency there may be, but if very little solar radiation is hitting a panel then very little extra electricity will be generated.
Just for the sake of interest, below is a direct lift from exeoenergy.co.uk. The figures are for solar radiation hitting the ground, but a stick-on panel may not exceed 15% in efficiency, so mid-day on a sunny midsummers day you might get 150w/m², but on a cloudy midwinter day you will only get a 15w output and only then for a very few hours.
sunny, clear sky
summer: 600 - 1000 W/m²
winter: 300 - 500 W/m²
sunny, skattered clouds or partly cloudy
summer: 300 - 600 W/m²
winter: 150 - 300 W/m²
cloudy, fog
summer: 100 - 300 W/m²
winter: 50 - 150 W/m²
You really need to check your facts on solar panels...
Semi-flexible panels using mono silicon are pretty much the same efficiency as rigid ones (just over 20%), the problem is the much higher cost (about 5x higher) and reduced lifetime if not properly fitted.
There is zero chance of low-cost panels (no expensive exotic materials or manufacturing costs) ever hitting 50% efficiency due to basic physics, they could get up to the mid-20s in the not-too-distant future assuming perovskite-on-silicon can be mass-produced at low cost and with good lifetime. Multilayer panels with ~30% efficiency are used in applications like space and solar concentrators where efficiency justifies a huge price premium (maybe 100x?). There are panels in the labs getting towards 50% using multiple layers and horribly expensive manufacturing techniques like MBE that can't ever make it into the mass market due to cost and limited rare element supplies.
Flat-mounted panels lose about 16% yield in the UK compared to optimally-angled (35% elevation) south-facing panels, which are not always possible on a boat.
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26 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:
I hope he gets well soon. Weils Disease is no joke and makes me glad I have a weedhatch. I also scrupulously wash my hands and arms if they've been in the water round the prop.
Me too. Unlucky as well, there are typically less than 40 cases per year in the UK... 😞
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Last week, somewhere in sunny Wales...
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Are Narrowboats getting uglier?
in General Boating
Posted · Edited by IanD
I've certainly seen ones who seem to polish everything possible so I wouldn't be surprised... 😉
(expecting that you know perfectly well how ambiguous English is, and that the verb could apply to both objects or just the second one...)
Anyway they'll probably be blinded by my LED headlights reflecting off all their shiny brass... 🙂