IanD
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Posts posted by IanD
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1 minute ago, magnetman said:
Though they have another tier of boats above this... 😉
https://www.napton-marina.co.uk/boats/regency/index.php
(we hired one this summer, very nice in some ways but some features not very well thought out and a few slightly scruffy bits...)
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51 minutes ago, peterboat said:
Once again the majority seems to like the places. Tim is ok I have met him on numerous occasions when I worked for Cornelius, always remembered your name and gave me free tickets for the opening if I was going to be around. I hadn't seen him for I would say 10 years when I bumped into him in Chesterfield, we recognised each other exchanged pleasantries and he sat with us and paid for the food and drinks! That's why he is successful
Is that the same majority as you usually mean i.e. you and your mates?
Many of the people I know -- again, probably the majority -- share my opinion of 'spoons and Tim Martin. And going by the number of users of the neverspoons app, so do an awful lot of other people who like good pubs... 😉
He's successful because he offers cheap beer and food and populist opinions, which some people value above all else... 😞
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9 minutes ago, peterboat said:
Or you are wrong ever considered that?
Not where 'spoons is concerned -- have you? 😉
(yes I've eaten and drunk in 'spoons on numerous occasions, some are OK, some are rubbish especially service, beer quality and choice varies, the unifying feature is they're cheap, and Tim Martin is an a*sehole...)
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22 minutes ago, peterboat said:
Loads of hand pulled to choose from, it's Castleford. The reality is Spoons are easily the most popular pub in the UK last night no spare tables to be had
"Six million flies can't be wrong -- eat sh*t!" 😉
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4 minutes ago, peterboat said:
2.10 squids for a chocolate orange stout in Spoons! Along with not a bad curry a good night was had when I had to stay because of rain 🤣🤣🤣🤣
How about beer, not pudding? 😉
(yes I know Spoons are dirt cheap and you love them dearly, other opinions are available...)
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8 minutes ago, BEngo said:
The Ocado model I can understand. It conforms to the idea above, though the cost of ownership (lease) of an automated warehouse needs to be added into the bill.
Tesco et al pick in their own stores. That means the "stuff" has to be delivered to stores, stacked on shelves and then removed again by an army of extra staff. That means no reduction in shelf space etc. Except perhaps cashiers though there are never enough of them anyway. So where do they benefit?
To some extent, it seems increased volume and headline market share. I don't understand the supermarket business well enough to know why these things are desirable. The car industry has been pursuing them for years, but does not seem to have gained much.
Whatever, it meant millions were able to get stuff without having to go near other folks during the pandemic, so there was a societal benefit.
N
Agree that the store-picking model makes much less sense than the Ocado one -- and that robotic warehouse certainly isn't cheap but I suspect it actually saves them money because it can serve a high number of customers with far fewer staff, which is why they've licensed the technology to others.
I guess the reason for store-picking is not to increase volume/market share but to stop it decreasing if your competitors offer home delivery and you don't.
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14 minutes ago, Heartland said:
Another location question, this time from 1967 and one of my own photos. I was interested in the Ruston and Hornsby diesel locomotive but there is a canal in the foreground, Any ideas ?
Shelton Bar steelworks?
I remember going through the middle of it by boat and feeling the heat from the furnaces and the rolling mill, seeing the hot metal and watching the sparks fly -- quite something...
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5 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:
In experience, the price of a pint of beer in London isn't noticably more than it is in Birmingham. The idea that a pint in London is comparitively extortionate is a myth.
Having spent plenty of time recently in various pubs in London and also places like Brum and Sheffield, I can confirm that beer (real ale, not lager) *is* more expensive in London -- anything under £5 a pint is a bonus, and some places are over £6, compared to perhaps £3.50-£4.50 typical in the Midlands and North -- so maybe £1.50 a pint more expensive.
Which shouldn't be any surprise given the higher costs of running a pub in London (rent/rates/lease/wages). A friend of mine who's just left a job as a pub manager was always complaining about this...
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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
At £10 per day commute it is not dissimilar to the price to a pint of beer in London.
(In fact the UK average beer price is apparenty £4.57)
So you don't buy beer in London either, then -- at the pubs I go to most often it's around £5 a pint.
Irrelevant anyway, the issue is whether they want to or can afford to pay a couple of grand a year, not how much a beer costs...
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2 hours ago, MtB said:
Also, 'elite' means different things to different people. Braidbar for example build modern style boats for people to whom stuff like granite worktops and fine quality interior machine-made joinery and posh bathrooms is important. Any subtlety in the lines of the steelwork usually lost on the buyers to whom this stuff is paramount. Other buyers are more concerned with the steelwork and the look of the shell. For these people, Steve Hudson, Ian Kemp, Graham Edgson etc all built for people with a picky eye for the look of their boat. Sadly all deceased now. Go-to shell builders now might be Warwickshire Fly Boats, Brinklow. Dave Harris but they won't be interested in you as a buyer if to you an 'elite' boat means air conditioning and a dishwasher, or electric propulsion. For money-no-object bleeding edge technology electric boats, go to Finesse.
Stand by for a stream of posts quibbling about the above!
Many of the "elite" boatbuilders use hulls built by the same hull builder, for example Tim Tyler supplies Braidbar, Norton Canes, Finesse and others. The look of the shell is largely down to what you ask (and pay!) for, anything from riveted replicas down to sleeker more modern styles are available. I've watched my hull being built by Tim and the skill and workmanship is something else...
I'd agree with the last line, it's what I'm doing -- you *do* need deep pockets but I expect the final result will be excellent quality and *exactly* what I want, even if it might be other people's worst high-tech nightmare... 🙂
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Just now, PaulJ said:
Depends. I try not to but needs must.
Often by train and sometimes by water. Enjoy boating through alot more than the train.
Plenty of people commute in and pay way more in rail fares-they also pay rent/mortgages/moorings too so I dont think thats an unreasonable extra cost if you want a free mooring with a bit of space.
I agree, it's not unreasonable -- the problem is that the boaters in question (living on the canal because it's cheap) either don't want to or can't afford to pay this, £2000 a year is a lot of money to some people.
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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Environmentally I agree, but finacially it is a nonsense.
50 deliveries at various prices - say average of £2 = £100 per day.
Cost of driver (salary, pension, holiday pay, etc etc)
Cost of the van (purchase price, depreciation, MOT, insurance, maintenance)
Cost of fuel.
Cost of staff time in the warehouse picking and packing my order.
But you're not looking at the bigger picture...
If the supermarkets deliver more goods in vans (especially from centralised depots like the automated one Ocado use) they sell less in stores, so need less space and fewer shelf-stackers and cashiers and tills and deliveries *to* the supermarkets...
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17 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:
You may have a point there.
Personally I feel a level of sympathy for many reluctant movers. They've found themselves in a difficult situation which many of CWDF ivory tower dwellers simply can't seem to comprehend. Whereas git-gappers are just selfish twats. I dealt with one recently on the Severn and he threw an absolute hissy fit about even the suggestion of moving up a bit. Luckily a scruffy boater next along came to my rescue and let me breast up to him for the night.
I can perfectly well comprehend the difficult situation they've got themselves into by ignoring the rules and building their life (kids, job, finances) around being able to stay in one place on the canals without paying, because when they're told to either move on or pay up they do have a big problem.
My sympathy for them is limited by the fact that this is a problem entirely of their own making.
My experience with git-gappers mirrors yours, the hissy-fitters are often on shiny boats (yes, I'm going to have one too next year...) and the helpful ones are often on scruffy ones -- very like people in general... 😉
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18 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:
We all have those irritations, even arriving at your intended VM to find it full with nose to tail boats is annoying, particularly if someone has had the temerity to moor a purple boat there. But it soon subsides when you find a realistic alternative.
If you want to annoy people leaving git gaps having a 35' boat is a good starting point.
I think owning a boat takes you to places that hiring a boat doesn't and you probably mellow in your attitude to other boaters over time, particularly when it exposes your own prejudices and blows apart your stereotypes (one of my favourite boats is actually purple and a dumper).
I'm not prejudiced against boats depending on how they look, some of the grottiest looking boats have the friendliest people in them and some of the shiniest boats have the biggest tw*ts. Oh dear, maybe that's reverse prejudice... 😉
(but I did say "some of" -- in other words, never judge a book by its cover)
Or people -- a good friend of mine used to be absolutely covered in tattoos and piercings with a shaved head but he really was one of the nicest guys you could hope to meet, I've genuinely seen him helping old ladies across the street. I've also met lots of well-groomed guys in smart suits who turned out to to amoral sh*ts, rather like some Tory politicians today...
(not Boris obviously, he's a scruffy amoral sh*t...)
12 minutes ago, PaulJ said:Ive often wondered that myself. Loads of space and greenery only a few miles out.
Its not that expensive for a tube ride in.
Do you often travel in London?
A return fare in from the suburbs in peak hours (needed for work) is around £10 a day (give or take a bit, depending on location), which is about £2000 per year.
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:
It still suprises me that Asda can pick, pack and deliver my shopping for the grand sum of £1.
It would cost me £12 in fuel alone to go to my nearest Asda.
It still surprises me that Hermes will come and collect my parcels (for delivery) for £1 when it would cost me £3 or £4 in fuel to take them to the drop-off point
The reason is that the costs (fuel and wages) are shared over a large number of deliveries.
It's far more eco-friendly for an Ocado/Asda/whatever van to drive round a circuit and deliver shopping to perhaps 50 people than it is for each of those people to drive to the nearest supermarket.
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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
I wonder how many working house owners expect to be able to have work so close to their house ?
Surely the vast, vast majority have to drive or train or bus to work ?
Can LOndon boaters not moor where they are allowed to moor and travel into work ?
After all the public transport situation in London is far better than much of the rest of the country.
Yes they could, but travelling in and out of London every day is expensive (thousands of pounds a year), and since the reason a lot of boaters live on the canals there (without paying for a mooring) is to save money...
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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
We planned to put one of those water source ones in our boat, nearly signed the order when the guy said "where will you be using it ?" it turns out that above an imaginary line extended East & West (Wrexham, Birmingham, Leicester, the Wash), the sea is too cold and when you need heating the most you won't get any. Inland waters will no doubt be warmer than the sea but it is not a reliable source of heating so you would still need you SF stove or Eberspacher.
For cooling it would work well, but for the odd few days a year is it really a viable option ?
I looked into this extensively when designing my boat (no power problem since it's a hybrid with a massive 48V LFP battery bank) -- specifically, this (water-source) one...
https://www.advanceyacht.co.uk/marine-air-conditioning-units-all/p/frigomar-scu16vfd
Efficient as both a heater and aircon (~1kW maximum input power for ~5kW heating/cooling -- this is the biggest one, there are smaller cheaper ones too) and no inrush current, but not cheap.
What stopped me was that as Alan says it needs a minimum input water temperature of 5C so won't work all year round for heating on the canals, and also uses fresh water from the canal so you need an intake, mud box, worry about clogging up etc. -- also awkward to fit in the required air ducting in a narrowboat. So I'd also have needed a second heating system as well.
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3 minutes ago, Midnight said:
I agree and it's only going to get worse as the NBTA - the only boaters group with teeth - are encouraging the "Self-entitled" approach to mooring and not moving. Their recent statement is telling "This continued disregard for the people who live and work in these new ‘no mooring’ and proposed paid-for mooring areas drives boaters away from their livelihoods,"
Is that code for I want it all and don't want to pay for it?Yes 😞
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6 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:
No one pretends it's one big happy family but that's a long way from my issue which is that discord amongst boaters is something that is negative for all users.
Of course there are people that don't abide by the rules in any walk of life but they don't prevent most of us from doing what we want to do in life in general and the same is true on the canals. It's a more enclosed environment so perhaps it's more obvious on the canals but all you achieve by getting worked up about other people who aren't directly preventing you doing what you wish to do, is to spoil your own enjoyment.
The most likely reason you'll struggle to moor on any short stay VM - at least outside of London - is folk leaving git gaps.
I don't get worked up about it, when I'm out on the canals I just enjoy it -- but it's still irritating when you can't find a place to moor because of other people's selfishness and disregard for the rules. Git gaps annoy me too, and even more so when people give you the stink eye when you have the temerity to moor close up to them sharing a mooring ring. Or even worse, dare to suggest to them that they might move up a ring to make the git gap big enough for you to get into...
Of course some people are perfectly happy to do this if you ask nicely (which I always do), others seem to think it's an impossible imposition to suggest they might spend a few minutes untying their boat, moving it along twenty feet or so, and retying it... 😞
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10 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:
It's got nothing to do with your boat ownership status. You are telling others they are wrong if they believe there is no conflict between boaters in London but are doing so not from your boating experience but from your cycling experience. I don't think it's healthy for canal people in general to be split into factions which is why I brought it up. If your boat had been delivered but hadn't made it within the M25 it would be no different.
Maybe it's in the interpretation of what you meant by the word but it takes two to have a conflict. I know of people who have cruised through London, plus me who skirted the edges, who managed it without conflict. My observations of the bit I did, and other parts of the GU on which there are large numbers of moored boats, is that if those that don't really want to move stay tied to the bank they are a lot less bother to those on longer cruises than when they move begrudgingly.
There are of course other reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to stay tied to the bank, but those should be of interest to residents of the area concerned more than other boaters.
As a hire boater have you hung around Braunston's 48 hour and 14 day moorings to know that they are full of overstayers? I pitched up at the 14 day moorings once and found a spot with no problem; then left my boat there unattended for the next 16 days. Perhaps you clocked it. I also arrived there at 1930 on a Saturday evening four weeks ago and moored a 57' boat.
My genuine view of 14 day visitor moorings is that they are often sought by liveaboards who deliberately stay for 14 days. That's allowed so you can't argue. Same applies to Arthur who seems to think that if a boat is not occupied it isn't OK to leave it on such a mooring for 14 days.
I can't help thinking you see other boaters as a problem.
I see *some* other boaters as a problem, specifically the ones who ignore the rules about mooring and CCing, who block short-term and VMs from the use they're intended for, and prevent any kind of fair access for boaters in honeypot areas.
Regarding busy places like Braunston, of course I'm not saying there are never any mooring spaces, or that all boats don't move on as required -- but if I go past a place twice a week apart and the same boats are moored in exactly the same 48h mooring (which has happened many times when I've been looking to moor) the obvious reason is that they haven't moved.
In life generally there's a conflict of beliefs and attitudes and interests between those who generally believe in obeying the law and following rules and those who don't and will do anything they can get away with if it's to their advantage. The canals are no different, and no amount of pretending that boaters are one big happy family will change that... 😞
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39 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:
The answer most definitely does not lie in making boats move more often. That will make no difference to the demand for towpath mooring but it will make cruising to the few available places harder for the visitor.
You only pass a moored boat once when transiting a canal and from a purely boating perspective it matters not a jot where you pass it on the canal. Preservation of visitor moorings is an issue and it really ought to be possible on 48 hour moorings. No real point with 14 day moorings because they are just like a towpath moorings but with rings or bollards provided. They'll just get re-occupied as soon as they are vacated. I took the view that on the GU main line the VMs were largely clear because it was a way for the wise liveaboards to keep below the radar.
So London is out of bounds if you cruise a certain way and aren't willing to change your style but to those who really want to visit it's possible but advisable to pre-book. This isn't news as I've long known people who've done it that way and it's pretty much how I boat anyway, minus the paying bit. I did contemplate visiting Paddington last year and would have been able to book on my identified dates but ultimately my plans changed on the way to London so when it came to choose my destination Brentford won because Hanwell locks seemed a lot more interesting than the Paddington Arm and it had an available short term mooring where I left the boat. Through London to the Lee and Stort will wait for another time.
It isn't ideal but it is London and it's like no other city (in pretty much the entire World) so it's tolerable.
I'm just not into talk of conflict between groups of boaters, particularly when one of them is on a bike.
I think we all agree that just moving for the sake of it -- especially in the middle of nowhere -- makes no sense, there's no need for it or benefit to everyone.
In crowded areas together with the CCing rules it should mean that popular in-demand moorings can't be permanently hogged by a few boats sitting on them all the time, but then this would mean people following the rules and moving away from the honeypot areas regularly -- and this is what people using the boats as cheap flats don't want to do.
Even so, if the short-term/48-hour/VMs were used as intended there wouldn't be a problem for visitors, but that's not what is happening either. It's not just a problem in London, the K&A is the same, and there are other popular places like Braunston and Whaley Bridge and many others where mooring is difficult for visitors, and for sure part of the problem is boats overstaying on VMs because I've seen them. The system relies on people behaving nicely and following the rules, but nowadays a lot of people take the "I'm all right Jack" attitude and ignore them, the problem is basically selfishness.
So right now nobody is happy -- people living on boats don't see why they should move in the sticks, and don't want to move in the honeypots, and visitors have trouble finding moorings there, and everyone is blaming everyone else (including CART) because that's what people do when they're unhappy... 😞
And please leave the snide digs out, the only reason I haven't got a boat is that it's not ready yet 😉
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21 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:
Do you know that these people haven't got CRTs blessing to do exactly that? Do you know that CRT might point disabled people to these moorings as accessible for them? I don't, but I also don't know otherwise. Genuine question - why do you think they are able to do this? Why do you think CRT don't section 8 the lot of them?
So why are you so reactionary towards it and why are you so sure I'm only referring to those on one side of this despite me saying otherwise? If you think it's so bad to use this term for both sides I think you should have a good look at the veiled insults you merrily throw around this forum towards anyone that doesn't agree with you and even those like myself that you imagine (yes I know what that means
). don't agree with you.
Don't tell me what I think, that's purely your prejudices showing.
And that's the point...
My main argument with you revolves around you making assumptions about what I think, then arguing with them. It's insulting and I will not stop correcting your false assumptions.
I have sympathy for anyone unable to find a mooring be they liveaboard CCers that don't move enough to satisfy you but apparently do move enough to satisfy the board, or those on holiday. I'm pretty sure the London mooring situation is a PITA for both.
I can see perfectly well how many boats there are that don't move, and I'm pretty sure that CART do give out a small number of exceptions where justified, and I simply don't believe that so many boats over such a distance fall into this category -- you're putting up a straw man argument again.
I'm pretty sure that last time this subject came up you had all the same pro-moorer arguments and it took a lot of prodding to get you to admit that you were either a member of the NBTA or at least agreed with their principles -- if that wasn't you then I apologise right now. Was it you?
How much boats move isn't a question of whether they satisfy *me* or not, it's whether they "satisfy the board" -- and as I keep saying, having seen the boats on the stretch going into London many times over more than a year, I find it impossible to believe that they are all "following the rules" -- and several have admitted that when I've talked to them, including "waiting for engine repairs" for more than a year (though of course the parts were available), and the "encourage coots to nest in tyre fenders" trick, or just plain "even if CART check it takes so long to take action I just ignore it". There is what could well be an apocryphal tale of a couple who every time CART brings action against one of them they sell the boat to the other for £1 and CART have to start proceedings all over again, and have been doing this without moving for years -- which could be true or could just be made up by people who hate CMers...
I too have sympathy for people who can't find somewhere to moor for whatever reason -- but much less sympathy for those who can't because they want to ignore the rules (and stay in one place just because it's convenient for them) than those who want to visit a place but can't because the moorings are blocked by overstayers. It's *not* a level playing field, and the fault/blame is *not* equal on both sides...
In my opinion. You disagree, and you're entitled to your opinion -- but I don't have to agree with you, and vice versa.
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12 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:
Point me to these insults. You're building a straw man here Ian. In fact
is patronising and insulting.
Yes it is, where have I remotely suggested otherwise?
You're the one who started using "entitled" -- knowing exactly what it means (an insult), or you think it does -- not me.
Pointing out that "movers" are entitled to use the short-term spaces according to the original dictionary definition is simply countering your (modern) pejorative use of it.
We've had exactly this discussion before and it's very clear which side of the argument -- essentially, the NBTA one -- you believe in. It's equally clear which side I stand -- that boaters should obey the CCing/mooring rules, not do what suits them regardless.
I suspect we're never going to agree or change our minds on this, and everyone else is getting bored with seeing the same arguments again and again... 😞
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19 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:
I'm promoting nothing other than giving some thought to the "other" side as it were, whichever side you take. By that, I don't mean stating their case then arguing against it. Both sides are displaying entitlement IMO which in both cases is unreasonable. I don't have a side so I disagree/agree with both. What I disagree with is taking intransigent positions and repeating them ad nauseum.
Seems like the main problem is lack of short term moorings for those passing through. I have to admit I did a double take reading about the existence of 14 day visitors moorings! What the heck is the point of that? Does it just mean a stretch with bollards or rings? Hardly surprising that with the same time restrictions as any old part of the towpath + plus the irresistible bollards/rings that they are constantly full up! Is it possible that merely designating chunks of these as 48 hour would be helpful?
The CCing and mooring rules say that boats should move on every 14 days and not remain in the same small area, and that 48-hour moorings and VMs are exactly that. Visiting boaters are therefore entitled (go and look up the definition) to expect that these moorings are used by short-term visitors, not long-term moorers ignoring the rules -- who if they think they should be allowed to do this because it's convenient for their lifestyle, are being "entitled" in the pejorative sense that you seem to use it.
It's not the same on both sides, any more than MPs expense-fiddling or partying during lockdown were. And if you don't like me repeating that ad nauseam in response to you denying it, I suggest you make your argument using facts instead of insults -- "shut up, it's all over, nothing to see here, move on" is a familiar argument nowadays, but not one that is the least bit convincing.
There are long stretches of moorings -- towpath and 48 hour -- which are permanently full of moored boats which hardly move, if ever, so I fail to see how designating more moorings as 48 hour would help -- in fact even the stretches near Paddington with "no mooring" signs are full of similar boats. It doesn't matter how many short-term/48-hour/VMs there are if they are just blocked by habitual overstayers.
The problem is that the mooring rules are not enforced by CART and are largely ignored by those who find it convenient to do so -- which is pretty much your definition of "entitled", isn't it? 😉
London boaters fight for moorings
in General Boating
Posted · Edited by IanD
You really should cut out the name-calling, Peter...
I understand exactly why people go there, for the reasons I stated and which you've just agreed with -- acceptable (if variable) quality and service but really cheap. If that's what floats your boat, fill your boots 🙂
Some people prefer to support better-quality genuine local pubs and restaurants even if they cost more, rather than see Tim Martin driving them out of business. If you think these are ripping people off (so why aren't they rich then? do you know any pub managers?), go to 'spoons. Your choice... 😉