IanD
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Posts posted by IanD
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8 minutes ago, Graham and Jo said:
I think it is Oldbury locks. Cheers Graham
That looks possible. Maybe they did look that bad in 1967, but they're *miles* from Wolverhampton, they couldn't possibly have gone that way due to a mapreading mistake...
Not complaining, it's a drama series not a canal-accurate travelogue -- I wondered if it was an arm somewhere that had since been closed, but it seems not.
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42 minutes ago, alias said:
On an early hire holiday 30 odd years ago I had a similar occurrence moving forward in the narrows at Pendeford. The rudder and tiller went around with such force that the rudder jammed against the hull. It's a rare occurrence, (hasn't happened since), but nevertheless can happen, so worth acknowledging and standing in the right place whether in forward or reverse.
Indeed, but there's one significant difference between the possible consequences -- ahead=wet, reverse=dead... 😞
If a boater wants to stand alongside the tiller when going ahead, they're very unlikely to come to much harm as a result, however much tutting and disapproval this may cause from the purists.
Doing it while going astern is a very different kettle of fish, as this incident shows, and should be very strongly discouraged given the number of boaters who have died as a result... 😞
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17 hours ago, IanD said:
Just watched all the way up to Episode Seven -- fascinating stuff... 🙂
Anyone figured out where the grotty stone-throwing Wolverhampton "cul-de-sac" they went up by mistake in episode 7 was? Or was it mocked up for the sake of the story?
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1 hour ago, cuthound said:
Whilst I agree that it is more likely to happen in astern, it can happen when going forwards.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I had the tiller forcibly ripped from my hands when the boat went over an underwater obstruction, possibly an oil drum, which lifted first the bow, then the stern. Had I been standing in the arc of the tiller I have no doubt that I would have been pushed overboard.
A very rare occurrence though -- and unlike the more common occurrence when going astern (including the tragic case under discussion), the boat carries on moving forward away from you instead of reversing over you and pulling you into the prop, so also far less likely to result in serious injury or a fatality. Being knocked over the side by the tiller when going astern is what boaters should be concerned about, because it kills people... 😞
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2 hours ago, nicknorman said:
It’s a shame they don’t differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li chemistries. That shows they don’t really understand it! My own system does all the things they mention but of course it has never been tested to one of the standards mentioned, and I doubt very much whether many or any commercial BMSs have either.
I haven't read the standards, but AFAIK they *do* distinguish between LFP and other more dangerous lithium chemistries -- that was certainly what Rod Collins (the marinehowto guy) implied...
I also don't believe the standards say "this is exactly how you must install the batteries", they specify some things that are not acceptable (e.g. parallel connection of LA and LFP?) but otherwise say they have to be either installed or inspected/passed by a suitably qualified professional, especially in the case of DIY installations. A remote alarm to the boater for disconnection/overvoltage is (I believe) mandatory.
3 hours ago, GRLMK38 said:Expect to have to provide evidence of installation by a suitably qualified person if insurers make it policy... (I mean generally, not you personally)
Or that the installation has been checked over and passed as good by a suitably quilified person -- otherwise all DIY installations would be banned...
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1 hour ago, sparkybob said:
Thanks for all the replies.
Should have said want to do most of network if possible so was originally looking at 60ft. 70ft is just not a practical size for all round network. will contact a few of the people ive mentioned. I think this is an in the know business especially when looking for a specific boat.
Also ive found the internet to be out of date with some boats still showing as for sale when they are not.
looks like ive found the right community to start with
thanks all.
I'm sure you're aware that there are several Northern canals where 62' won't go but 60' will (with care), and 2' won't make that much difference to internal space. Either way, to get everything in that you want (including a back cabin) will need a carefully thought out layout with no wasted space, assuming it will fit at all...
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4 hours ago, GRLMK38 said:
A technical specification is being reviewed, pending ratification by ISO. Its reference number is CEN ISO/TS 23625 (August 2022) "Small Craft - Lithium Batteries". It is already prevalent in the UK amongst organisations associated with the safety and insurance of inland craft. I believe conversion to a full ISO standard is expected shortly. How it will be adopted in the UK remains to be seen e.g. RCR, mandated by insurers etc....
The quote that some may have seen on Facebook (dismissed as b******s by some) was an extract from the TS.
What will really set the cat amongst the pigeons is if insurers start making how lithium batteries are installed a condition of insurance cover, which is what has happened in the US.
For example I'm pretty sure this excludes paralleling LFP and LA, and requires that the BMS has to warn the boater when disconnection has occurred e.g. via CANbus or Bluetooth, and even sometimes that the batteries have to be professionally installed -- or at least, certified by a professional as safe.
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3 hours ago, Tacet said:
Nope to the latter. The average human (median) has two arms. The average number (mean) of arms will be a little under two.
Mean is the usual meaning of average, most people wouldn't know what the median was -- and certainly not the mode, which is of course also two... 😉
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Just watched all the way up to Episode Seven -- fascinating stuff... 🙂
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1 minute ago, dmr said:
I read a book once about a man with three balls, but maybe that was finction.
Life expectancy is another example where the average (mean) can be a bit misleading.
Are you sure you're not getting confused with the limerick?
There once was a man from Devizes
Whose balls were of different sizes
One was so small it was no use at all
But the others were huge and won prizes 🙂
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32 minutes ago, BEngo said:
Many boats have more draught than they should. It is common to see them stationary, with the counter about 3 or 4 inches under water. Apart from being bad for rope stern fenders, this makes for poor swimming, wastes fuel and causes worse wash.
The counter should be barely immersed when still. Just enough to stop the water slapping it when the wind is astern. It will draw down a bit when going along and work perfectly at stopping ventilation by the prop.
N
Don't forget that the counter has to stay immersed in the most bow-heavy/stern-light configuration, such as a full bow water tank, an almost empty stern diesel tank, and several crew sitting in the bows (for a typical boat layout) -- and a full or empty pumpout tank if you have one, depending which end it's at. Move all the weights around (empty water/full fuel/crew at stern/opposite poo case) and the trim will change by maybe a couple of inches at both ends, perhaps an inch or so in the more typical case of everything midway.
But I agree that three or four inches typical is too much -- maybe in some cases the boat has been overplated and not had enough ballast removed, or has a lot of heavy stuff on board like coal/wood, or just more *stuff* than when it was ballasted...
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9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
I'm am average human. I'm mostly armless.
Better than being mostly legless... 😉
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20 minutes ago, Owls Den said:
Without checking I’m pretty sure an average human has two arms.
But I get your point all boats are different.
However.. There are a few types that seem pretty common, Liverpool, reeves etc and was wondering what their draught is like compared to 2ft 4’ !
Nope, a few have one or zero arms but AFAIK nobody has more than two -- so the average is slightly less than 2, that's how averages work... 😉
The same applies to legs, eyes, ears, testicles etc. -- but probably not nipples... 😉
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5 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
Interestingly, there is a comment on the 12V facebook group today referencing, I assume the guy who writes the marine how too articles, suggesting that he does not advocate the use of different type battery chemistires connected in series or parallel because they do not comply with acceptable safety standards.
I assume this guy is from the US.
Yes he is, and he helped write the ABYC safety standards for LFP batteries on boats which the US marine industry (including insurers) is now using -- I believe the EU has a similar standard but I'm not sure if it's law yet or just advisory.
As far as the UK is concerned, who knows... 😉
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20 minutes ago, nicknorman said:
I do quite like the idea of the automatic heating - you put it on charge and if it’s too cold, the charge goes to the heater. That said, we have never had the batteries go below zero. We do have manually activated heating but I’ve never really needed to use it.
Batteries sitting on the baseplate in a steel narrowboat -- like mine -- are unlikely to ever get below zero even in the coldest weather, because they're sitting on top of a metal plate held around +4C by the water two feet down -- water colder than this rises and freezes on the surface.
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10 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
OK, I agree they do look pretty good 🙂
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6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
Lots of people on facebook recommend lifebatteries. They contain the same Eve cells as fogstr iirc, but with a shorter warranty period.Both use the JBD BMS.
https://www.lifebatteries.co.uk/shop
I can't personally recommend them, as I use summit else.
If you want to build your own, buy individual grade A matched cells from same source and add BMS of your choice.
Winston(Thundersky) are still available from:
https://eveurope.eu/en/product-category/lithium-accus-en/
Or go direct to china through Aliexpress.
I agree with everything except the last line -- going direct to China is a minefield unless you really know what you're doing and which suppliers to use, and even then there are reports of substandard products.
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7 minutes ago, DShK said:
Do you have a brand you recommend? Worth investigating if I can get a refund on these sterling batteries. Otherwise I might try the fogstar batteries, at least they have a better BMS. Only difficulty there is they need to be pre-ordered. Not sure what I'd do without batteries, especially as I want to finally go for a proper long cruise.
I had assumed that as Sterling are a well known brand, they would want to uphold a reputation of selling decent equipment. But it seems to me that their customer base is probably people who just plop them in as straight replacements and call it done. And anyone like myself who pipes up, they hope they can fob off with excuses. What a shame!
Fogstar are new to the market and look good (and well-priced), but what they're actually like inside (design and build quality) remains to be seen, AFAIK nobody has tested or looked inside one yet.
The marinehowto site makes some recommendations but it's US-centric, don't know about UK availability (the Epoch one is sold by Fogstar in the UK at £400 for 12V 100Ah but they're out of stock):
https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/
Here's a test of batteries available in the UK but it's 2 years old and the market has moved on since -- they recommended Sterling (more expensive range?) but only tested capacity, didn't look a cell imbalance:
Sterling generally are a well-known but low-end supplier, their gear is well-priced but there have been numerous complaints from customers about problems or failures. Whether this is worse than other similar brands is difficult to say because you only ever hear about bad experiences not good ones... 😉
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Just now, Captain Pegg said:
Fully agree. Just thought our little discourse threatened the boundaries of being respectable in the circumstances.And as so often on the internet, heated by wrong assumptions and misunderstandings which wouldn't happen when talking face-to-face... 😉
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10 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:
Part of the prob is ignorance, plenty of experienced boaters don't understand the dynamics of risks involved, let alone first time hirers with a romantic and exciting vision of a canal boat holiday, instruction and warnings won't suffice, warning families of possible gruesome accidents could put folk right off the whole idea of of a canal boat break, it has to addressed at source, ie the actual boat design.
Boats with an engine on canals built hundreds of years ago will always have some safety risks which can't easily be "designed out", it's the nature of the beast.
Other than banning boats and closing the canals, the best that can be done is to warn people against the most likely/most dangerous things that can go wrong, especially if this means potentially sinking the boat or injuring/killing someone -- and that is exactly what hire companies already do, for example warning against:
1. Hanging the boat up on the cill in a lock
2. Standing inside the arc swept by the tiller
3. Tying ropes to a bollard when descending a lock
4. Take care when clearing weed hatch -- keys in pocket, make sure to refit it properly
5. Walking along gunwales or on roof unless absolutely necessary
It's just common sense from both sides, and possibly stops the hire company getting sued if something happens that they didn't warn about... 😉
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15 minutes ago, DShK said:
The problem is these systems are a completely different ball park cost wise. 400ah of cheap lithium batteries cost around £2000, the equivalent victron batteries cost £6000+. And I know nordkyn design don't think victron really know how to look after lithium properly too.
You do have to take into account the economy of it.... You could go through 10 sets of LA batteries for the price of just the victron batteries, without the extra equipment. So you could just treat a dozen sets of LA like trash, like they were lithium, and get the same economy out of them.
So there's the halfway point of getting the most (but perhaps not perfect) out of cheaper batteries. Safety I do think comes into the equation though, but I don't think you need to spend £10k on a system to get a decent level of that. Safety is of course a balancing game, otherwise we'd all just stay indoors!
There are other good-quality vendors who are cheaper than Victron, if not as cheap as the "dirt-cheap LFP" vendors -- who are probably using/selling rejected cells from the back doors of the Chinese factories, which is *why* they're so cheap. Same with BMS, there are well-regarded ones but they do cost at least double the cheapo ones because they cost more to build -- however they're still a lot cheaper than the cells, so penny-pinching on BMS is a false economy.
As you say there's a "sweet spot" between the cheap rubbish and the most expensive gear from suppliers like Victron, and there are both components (cells, BMS) and drop-in LFP batteries available in this space, and from suppliers with some knowledge and expertise who can support them -- which also costs money, so they're not the absolute cheapest in the market.
But many people buy the cheapest gear from the cheapest supplier who knows nothing, and then complain when it doesn't work properly. I'm shocked, *shocked* I tell you...
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8 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:
Hang on! So you're telling me there are boats out there which don't require continuous sideways pressure on the tiller?
Not many... 😉
But some are *much* worse than others, I've been on boats which needed so much force to steer straight that you had to take the strain off your arm by standing next to the tiller and using your hip to hold it in place. And yes I'm perfectly well aware that this is not a good idea, but what do you do when there's no other option?
On the positive side, AFAIK all the fatal "rudder/tiller-tips-steerer-over-the-stern" incidents have happened when going astern, not when cruising ahead. But the problem is that when you've got used to standing to the side of the tiller in this case, it's easy to forget to move out of the way when going astern... 😞
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25 minutes ago, GUMPY said:
I remember seeing a cruiser stern day hire boat with a bright yellow arc painted on the deck boards with wording something like "do not stand in this area" written on the deck. Can't remember whose it was but it seemed like a good idea for Novices.
That's exactly what I meant; the hire boats I've been on in recent years have all had markings like this. But then I tend to hire the newer boats from companies with a good reputation, who maybe take more care about this than some of the lower-end hire companies with an old fleet.
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19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
In the not too distant future, there will be ready built commercial charging systems for Li batteries that do make them simple rather than a string of repurposed equipment or an odd home brew. Until then, I think many will stack with LA batteries.
I bet when we changed from three brush to two brush dynamos, people said the regulator made them complicated, but they got accepted. Ditto the change from dynamo to alternators, especially the 10 & 11 AC range with separate regulator, warning light control and energisation relay. They got simplified as well into the ACR range.
There are already properly-designed BMS/charging systems available that do just that. However these cost more than cheap rubbish ones (or off-the-shelf drop-in LFP batteries with who-knows-what inside), so guess what most people go for?
Even with drop-in LFP batteries there are good more expensive ones (properly built, matched cells, good BMS with active balancing, high current ratings, comms to external world) and bad cheap ones (poorly built, mismatched cells, rubbish BMS, low current ratings, no comms). Again, guess which most people buy?
The simple problem is that LFP cells *need* a properly designed system wrapped round them to be as safe and reliable and long-life as promised, and it's cheaper not to do this properly and cut corners -- and so long as people buy just on price with the wool pulled over their eyes by exaggerated or just plain false advertising, they'll carry on getting their fingers burned -- sometimes literally... 😞
Awful incident a Autherley Junction today.
in General Boating
Posted
Wrong thread?