Harborough boat builders

[sevey]

Hello, I am wondering if anyone has any advice on buying a Harborough boat? Are they reputable/ decent boatbuiders? The one I am interested in is 58ft, built 1972 and has 'more than enough anodes' and has been regularly blacked.

I am a new buyer, I have a bit more than £20k just entering the world of boats. I was in Holland a few weeks ago and returned feeling tempted to get a narrowboat instead so I can explore the waterways and have fun before potentially needing more (family?!) space

 

I've heard bad things about Springers but that is the most common boat on the market- are they best avoided or considered?

Air cooled Lister 2 cylinder- is that decent to pull a 58ft boat? (sr2 no 3546 2 cylinder air cooled) I hear air cooled are fine but to be aware they won't heat your boat/water like the water fed engine. This boat has 3 gravity fed radiators from it's stove, and the water is heated by an instant LPG heater. Suffice? She's been very well insulated too.

What would you do if you had 20k and were buying your first boat again?! Any advice or comments so so welcome, I'd love to hear from you!

[alan_fincher]

Harborough Marine boats were very well respected, and back when that one was built, generally far more expensive, and considered well upmarket of the Springers you also mention.

 

Back in 1972 not that many new build steel narrow boats were built for private owners, and Harborough Marine would have been supplying far more to the hire boat trade than privately, so there is a good chance that a boat from then was once a hire boat.

 

Two big cautions......

 

1) These boats were I believe largely built at that time as "wet bilged", meaning the front and rear decks were not designed to collect rainwater and drain it overboard, but instead it all ended up in the bottom of the boat, (running from front to back under the cabin, in the case of water from the front well), to be pumped out by a bilge pump at the back.

 

Moreover some apparently even drained the shower into the cabin bilge, again relying on a bilge pump at the back to drain the shower water.

 

Some of these wet bilged boats actually suffered more corrosion from inside than out, often in a fairly catastrophic way, and many have needed over-plating in new steel as a result. (A surveyor once said to me he had seen far more rotted bottoms in Harborough Boats than in Springers, because there were far less water traps in the design of the latter, but I don't know how accurate that is.)

 

2) Most Harbourogh Marine boats built in 1972 would not have had a steel cabin, but one made out of GRP. These can be problematic, and can leak both where they going to hull sides at the gunwales, and at any point where one moulded section of the top joins to another, (they wee seldom one continuous moulding, I think).

 

A 1972 Harborough Boat could really be in any range of conditions between "totally OK" and "totally shot", and only a good survey will really tell you which you are looking at.

 

If it has a GRP top, rightly or wrongly, most people will mark its value down considerably, versus one with a steel top.

A 2 cylinder Lister SR2 produces about 13 HP. This was absolutely standard for boats of this tpe and length at the time, and pre-dates a modern trend where people now expect engines with much higher horsepower figures. It will push a boat like that along fine, but there will not be huge reserves of power when measured against modern expectations. (See another thread currently running!)

[Keeping Up]

To add to what Alan says, and having owned an even earlier (1969) Harborough boat (Thistle); this is a fairly early Harborough and therefore probably has a GRP top (or maybe even a wooden top) which will almost certainly leak when it rains, from the line where the top meets the hull and probably from around the windows as well as a few other seams too (and especially from the handrail mounts if it has the earlier roof moulding pattern which is flat and uses a shaped rail). The insulation provided by the GRP/foam sandwich that was used wasn't bad but if you're going to live on board in the winter you'll want more insulation between the sides and the lining. Don't jump down onm to the roof from a high lock side.

 

They were well built but the steel wasn't all that thick, usually just a 6mm base and very probably quite thin by now, especially since (as Alan says) it will almost certainly have a wet bilge so will have been rusting through from both sides. This method of construction also tends to make it colder in winter. The Lister engines were great and although for 58ft an SR3 is more common and SR2 should suffice - but it does depend how well it has been looked after. If it hasn't been looked after it could consume more oil than diesel.

 

I am continuously amazed at the high prices these old boats still fetch, and I've heard of people paying as much as £25k for a sunken wreck. Personally I still love their shape, but it would have to be in very good condition to be worth £20k. Having said that, having recently seen the marvelous fitout that Thistle's owners did a few years ago I am certain that she would be worth all that and plenty more. In the end it all comes down to condition, and a survey would be essential to be certain of this.

[sevey]

That is so so helpful, thank you.

It is a relief to know what to ask and check for. In terms of a good builder, good engine and good surveyors, are there any recommendations? Or a site or publication that you can recommend? I am also looking at a Smith Brothers of Goole with Vetus engine (http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=259580), and can't find any feedbac on them from searches here/on the internet, I think they are ship builder which seems a good thing? Also a John White but with a Kuboata engine which I've heard cursed (http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=272915)-why?! A skipper told me Vetus engines are hopeless to fix as are BMC (once used in taxi's?), do you agree? I've also found it tricky to find out anything much about Teddeseley other than they were also used as hire boats and I think were built with 6mm steel. Again, she has a GDP top, not great...oh dear. (http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=270154)

I hear what you are saying, it's all about a survey but it's good to understand these different models. THANKS AGAIN! Any feedback on what you would do as a first time buyer is much appreciated also

[alan_fincher]

It is a fairly common misconception that the BMC diesels regularly used in narrow boats were taxi engines.

 

The taxis used 2.2 and 2.5 litre BMC engines, and although there are occasionally found in narrow boats they are much less common than the BMC 1.5 litre and 1.8 litre engines. (THe bigger engines are really more power than you need).

 

Think BMC vans like the J4 and Sherpa, rather than taxis.

 

The 1.5 and 1.8 are well respected engines. Generally spares are fairly easy to come by, although some claim that the 1.5 is getting a bit harder to source some of the bits, I think.

[sevey]

It is a fairly common misconception that the BMC diesels regularly used in narrow boats were taxi engines.

 

The taxis used 2.2 and 2.5 litre BMC engines, and although there are occasionally found in narrow boats they are much less common than the BMC 1.5 litre and 1.8 litre engines. (THe bigger engines are really more power than you need).

 

Think BMC vans like the J4 and Sherpa, rather than taxis.

 

The 1.5 and 1.8 are well respected engines. Generally spares are fairly easy to come by, although some claim that the 1.5 is getting a bit harder to source some of the bits, I think.

Thats good news- thanks very much.