Masons Paint

[leolady too]

I am told (by the company) that masons E500 synthetic undercoat is no longer available although some stockists still have some. The data sheets say P Type can go straight over primer (rapid excel is recommended). How do people feel about a system of say two coats of primer and two of top coat with no undercoat?

Does the undercoat have much to do with protecting the steel or is it mainly about colour and obliteration of what's underneath?

Is there that much difference between undercoat and primer in these circumstances?

Does anyone know if red oxide is OK under Masons primer and P Type?

Finally, does anyone know if one can mix 20-25% P Type with rapid excel primer (to ease a colour change/match) the way one can mix E500 synthetic undercoat and P Type topcoat?

Why is all this so complicated compared with Dulux matt on the walls at home?

Edited May 22, 2009 by leolady too

[kitman]

Hi leolady too,

 

As far as I am aware all single pack paints (like P-type) can be mixed together but only if they use a household white spirit as a solvent/brush cleaner. If you have a single pack that uses cellulose or xylene as a brush cleaner then they will not mix with P-type. It will go like porridge! So check the tins for details before you mix p-type and the primer.

 

Single pack is a general term for paints which require no extra additives (like hardeners) to help tham cure. Sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs here.

 

Masons should sit happily over any single pack(or properly cured two pack) paint surface that is already well adhered, cured, dry, free of dust, free of grease and keyed with sand paper.

 

You could mix the primer and p-type together but why not just buy the appropriate colour undercoat? Different colour undercoats are available and will work well. Try Craftmaster for instance.

 

Why is all this so complicated compared with Dulux matt on the walls at home?

I hope you are good with a brush!

[leolady too]

Thanks for that. I've had a look at the data on the Masons site.

 

It seems the main solvent in both rapid excel primer and P Type top coat is naphtha with some xylene so I think they are probably mixable but probably not compatible with anything white spirit based. The thinner/cleaner is 50-75% naphtha, 10-25% xylene.

 

I wonder why they've stopped making undercoat. I suppose they must know what they are doing and have a good rreason.

Edited May 23, 2009 by leolady too

[kitman]

HI Leo,

 

Thanks for that info. I can tell you that from experience Masons P-type will mix happily with craftmaster, and epifanes undercoats/primers.

 

I wonder why they've stopped making undercoat. I suppose they must know what they are doing and have a good rreason.

 

Yea right! I can't recommend Mason's 100%, they will not help you out one jot when problems occur with their product. The primer/undercoat colours are limited to black and white which is utterly useless (unless you are painting a black, white or grey boat of course). When I bought some Masons for a job about 18 months ago I was completely fobbed off when I contacted them concerning problems with one of their greys. They couldn't care less, I lost between £200.00-350.00 because I had to repaint 2 sides of a boat because the white pigment of the grey had mysteriously separated. The paint had cured fine, but I was left with white lines up and down the cabin! Not good!! You know what their excuse was? I was applying it too thick! You know what their reason was that I was applying it too thick? Because I was using a Brush! And because of my obvious blatant error they would NOT be crediting me with the amount equal to my lost earnings or even refunding me the price of the paint or supplying me with some replacement paint free of charge that was functioning correctly! It seems their paint was not the problem and brush painting Masons P-type should be avoided, now there's a revelation!!

 

They told me I should have a dry film thickness of 25 microns, unfortunately at the time I didn't have the equipment to prove I was applying at 25 microns DFT, not many painters do AFAIK. But I can tell you now that the paint I apply is between 25-30 microns (I now have the technology!!) if I could of proved that at the time then I may of had a chance of recouping my money. As I said, most boat painters AFAIK dont carry dry film gauges so when something goes wrong the first thing Masons do is blame the fact you are using a brush as opposed to spraying, and obviously putting on too thick.

 

So as you can see the all wonderfull Masons dont give a rats ar se about boat painters who traditional brush paint. Masons have a great rep on the waterways as THE traditional time honoured and proven paint for canal boats and have the potential to sell a great deal of paint to its adoring fans, but for some reason they are binning their reputation.

Even the supplier of the Masons fobbed me off, (a Northampton based automotive paint suppliers) saying there are only 2-3 Masons sales reps working the entire country, so no one could come and view the white lines on the grey boat. The annoying thing is I love P-type. I have bought it since when I'm confident I know there is no problems asociated with the particular colour, but the customer support is non existant.

 

As an end note: Since this happened I have talked to another boat painter who has come across this exact same problem, this time with yellow separating in a green for no apparent reason. When a complant was made he was met with the same attitude. This boat painter works for an established hire company that has 30 plus hire boats that are painted every year, plus does alot of private paint work and as a result buys alot of paint from Mason every year. Still they couldn't care.

Rant over!

 

Edited May 23, 2009 by kitman

[leolady too]

I'm surprised there was a suggestion that P Type should be sprayed to get the correct film thickness. The data sheets say "P Type 1K Topcoat is a single component brushing topcoat" and under "Application Process" it says "By brush appy 1 coat" which is pretty clear to me.

 

I have to say that when I emailed for advice, stating I was an amateur NB painter, I got a rapid and very helpful reply. Of course, writing for help when there is a problem, particularly if the problem is with the product, is different. It is also a chance for the company to demonstrate that it really is interested (or in your case isn't) in its customers and reputation.

 

BTW just for completeness, the data sheet says Rapid Excel primer comes in buff, off white, light grey and dark grey. I'ff not sure what colour buff is or what it would go under and off white and various shades of grey don't get you much further than black and white and mixtures thereof but I thought I'd mention it.

 

Finally, now they don't do E500 synthetic undercoat, which was also designed to be brushed, they sell only primers designed for spraying. Perhaps P Type will be the next to go and they will concerntrate on spray coatings only. Perhaps they would let us all know so we could begin moving to another brand if that is their intention.

[kitman]

Buff is a kind of Beige I think.

 

'P Type 1K Topcoat is a single component brushing topcoat based on a urethane alkyd

resin designed specifically for brushing commercial vehicles and related equipment.

P Type has been formulated to give the application properties of traditional coach enamel

coupled with enhanced durability and chemical resistance.'

 

 

Film thickness:

Wet film:75 microns (per coat)

Dry film:25 microns (per coat)

Note:

Minimum dry film build: 25 microns

 

 

That is straight from the technical info sheet. Personally I think I was just fobbed off. When I said to the sales rep 'so are you telling me that Mason's isn't for brush painting?' They said something along the lines of: 'No we're are not saying that, we are saying as long as it is applied at the appropriate WFT the white steak will not appear'.

I was pretty confident I was applying at 75 wft because I'd had a wft gauge for a while, it the comb type. Thing is it's hard to prove wft after the paint has dried as part of the film flashes off in the curing process. And by the same token the dry film thickness of a single coat is hard to prove on the side of a canal boat. This is because you have inevitably painted over at least 1 primer and 2 undercoats before you apply the first P-type coat.

You would certainly have a problem producing concrete evidence that you had applied it at the correct thickness. The Mason's sales reps know this, some of the sales reps I've talked to have been in the coatings business along time and they know they can fob off the average painter with this sort of thing. They offered me no helpfull advice at all, just blammed the application. When I suggested that it had been painted at the correct thickness they just stuck to their guns saying it was on too thick, and the 'lads' at the suppliers had tried painting a thin coat on some some steel at northampton and it was ok. The whole thing was a load of ar se. I surpose that in their line of work the application is to blame 90% of the time, so I understand why they fobbed me off. Unfortunately they just don't have time to spend with their regular customers, that is why I don't buy the stuff anymore unless I have to.

 

I surpose the way to prove it would be to paint it over a sheet of bare steel, wait for the white streak to present itself and then measure the paint on the steel panel with dft gauge proving it is applied at the correct dft. Maybe I will try this, although it happened 18 months ago I still have a 0.5 of a litre of the paint and I now have a dft film gauge. I kept the paint because I thought one day I may be able to prove it and get my money back, false hope probably!

 

If the problem does occur you will know straight away because when you stir up your paint using a flat paddle like a ruler, you will notice that one of the tinter colours that make up the overall colour will not mix in no matter how long you stir it, I remember stiring for over 30 mins! (I have a strong wrist! ). The tinter will just sit there on the top.

I would like to add that I have never encountered this problem with Craftmaster, International, Rapid or Epifanes paints. If it does happen to you with Mason's then you need to stick to your guns if you can. Or do as I do and dont risk using the paint unless you have too, you may end up losing money as a result. I had to use another manufacturer's paint in the end to repair the damage, obviously I couldn't give my customer back a freshly painted boat with white streaks down the side!

 

I hope this is of some use to you leo and any others painting with p-type, I didn't start off with the intention of hijacking this thread in order to vent my anger on Mason's!

[leolady too]

Does anyone have thoughts on the need for or benefit of undercoat. Is Mason's advice to put top coat straight over primer thought sound?