canute

Some power units have a diverter valve on the drain from the engine sump and the gearbox drain "plugs" to the same brass pump enabling either or both to be emptied. Given that Beta recommends the same oil and service intervals on a Beta 43/PRM150 combo a dual pump would be ideal and time saving.

You could try sucking on a clear tube poked just below the 'full' level to see whether oil or air is lifted. Excellent idea, I don't know why I didn't think of that myself, I used to use the same method in reverse when topping up WLA batteries, being in a confined space and blind to the electrolyte levels, I used a tube with a cable-tie set on the tube at the optimal level, a gentle blow would either bubble if the height was right or blow air strait through if level was low, in the latter case I would pour a little Distilled/Deionized water down the said tube and then gently blow again, repeating until level was reached. I could do a six bank of batteries in around 1 to 2 hrs. Took 3 days using a dental mirror the first time I attempted. I must clarify before starting further responses, NO specialist top-up bottles and/or other paraphernalia didn't fit in the 200mm or so of space that I had above the battery bank. No suggestions required, I have AGM's now. Regards,

The post was about PRM gearbox and the subject of the PRM's sump plug (lack of) access was mentioned, I think you missed the irony in the Tongue in cheek question, anyone know why the engine has a brass hand-pump attached to the oil sump?)

Thanks to all, Tried the paper towel trick for dipstick, as most seem to know (PRM being the exception) it's still difficult to read, also didn't screw dipstick in just allowed for the additional length of threads and deducted from fill mark. Yep "removed 1.4L, filled with 1.3, removed 1.3 and are still measuring it as overfilled?" Not sure of the amount 'including cooler' as Beta say refer to PRM handbook, can't understand why they don't state cooler capacity plus PRM quantities? Beta's and PRM's have been in a fairly long term relationship so you'd think that one or the other would firstly provide an easy drain option and comprehensive service instruction with quantities and not forgetting an easy to read dipstick, Ahh utopia! (Tongue in cheek, anyone know why the engine has a brass hand-pump attached to the oil sump?) About to refill (1.3) and run engine in gear to see if levels settle, as suggested. Absolutely no access for removing drain-plug let alone catching any drained oil, I would have to dismantle and remove half the engine room! Removed oil again, then topped-up, ran engine in gear then checked level, topped-up, ran engine in gear then checked level, Etc, Etc. Not sure if the thing had more oil than required or the extractor wasn't empty, I must be going mad!!! either way hopefully sorted now! Thanks for all the comments.

Just oil serviced Beta 43, 9.5 litres with filter, 'attempted' an oil service on the coupled PRM 150 and extracted 1.4 litres of oil (measured), I then refilled with 1.3 litres and then checked (probably one of the hardest to read) dipstick for final fill, however dipstick showed that gearbox was overfilled? I removed excess oil in increments until I have now removed the 1.3 litres that I poured in and the dipstick still shows an overfilled box? I can't quite get my head around what's going on, any ideas? Copied and pasted this from PRM 150 pdf: 1.4 litres (2.5 pints) plus the amount necessary to fill the oil cooling circuit. Beta do not state anything about filling the oil cooling circuit, either, how to do this or quantities of oil required, even if they did I can't understand why I have removed oil but the dipstick indicates an overfill, I did wonder if the box had the wrong length of dipstick, perhaps from another model. Can anyone provide me with the distances from the underside of the dipstick nut-flange to the high and low level marks on the rod, or indeed the in's and out's of the oil cooling circuit and how to fill/service? many thanks for expedited replies, wanting to move boat ASAP.

Exchanger flow directions are usually marked on the unit, correct direction of flows is critical to the performance as turbulence from the flow is designed to keep the flow channels clear of debris and any suspended matter in the coolants, reversed connections will impede the flow velocity’s and reduced the self cleaning effect.

I used short 3/4” female BSP to 22mm compression adapters (brass), however the female threads do not extend right up to flat seat! I was intending to bridge this with, one or two thick fibre washers, after being dissatisfied with the size of washers I could find (not wide or thick enough), I plumped for stacking three copper washers coated in a film of Loctite pipe thread sealant. The I.D of standard 3/4” tap connectors is not the same I.D as the exchangers ports, fibre washers are to small and will crush if stacked, further; cutting back of the copper will weaken the clamping force exerted by the nut. I did consider PTFE but these are parallel threads possibly subject to vibration so not a particularly good idea. I also contacted Nordic Tech and suggested that they may make additional sales if they offered compatible irons for their exchangers. If I’d know somebody who had a laith I would have had the internal corners bored out on the standard irons and used a single washer. It’s unfortunate that someone doesn’t produce a 3/4” flat seat union like in some boilers, well I couldn’t find one.

A 3/4” Tap connector from anywhere will NOT fit, believe me I’m an x pipe installation supervisor, as said before after many trip to multiple outlets, DIY and trade I could not find a suitable flat seat adapter, the flat seat of the heat exchanger is a larger flat than a tap connector.

Hi Motters79, I purchased a "Nordic Tech Ba 12-20 3/4'' 45kW ⋅ WITH insulation" from eBay £86.99. Very impressed with the extremely small size, the amount of heat transfer and the quality of build. I do have one piece of advise, because these are parallel threads; make sure you obtain 3/4" BSP compatible irons, I hunted high and low for 3/4" BSP flat seat irons with fibre washer to 22mm Compression, WITHOUT luck, (standard 3/4"BSP irons or 3/4" tap connectors do not fit), in the end I used three copper compression washers dabbed in Loctite thread sealant fluid, within a standard 3/4" BSP to 22mm compression iron. If on the other hand you can get away with using 3/4"BSP to Hose Barb, these are readily available from "Advanced Fluid Solutions" with the requisite flat seating washer. Remember what ever you use upstream air vent/s will be required to purge any air from the system. I have attached a pdf of the panel that I had made, this was installed by the helm. If you require any further information do not hesitate in asking. Probable the best thing that I've done to the boat. Should have done it years ago. Boat heating panel.pdf

Thanks for the replies so far, however perhaps my plans have not been made clear. This pump already fits a pump-out's threaded fitting "without" modification, and so NO pick-up hose should be required, a small, lets say 600mm x 25mm outlet hose with elbow is all that is required to reach the container/s (Cassette/s), therefore if the pump can be run backwards all that will be require for flushing is a reversal of the polarity, the 600mm of hose and the pump it's self, more of a pump-out, rinse-in, no long lengths of suction or drain hose to deal with, no being careful not to spill excrement, no need to adapt inlet to match outlet and the associated inconvenience and mess of turning the pump around. Just screw pump into outlet, have five gallon container/s to pump waste into, switch pump off when container/s are full, then drop outlet elbow into a half gallon of clean water in a bucket to flush the pump safely and cleanly back into the holding tank, 10+ gallons out to 1/2 gallon in, unscrew the pump and store. Cold it be any simpler or smaller? It merely comes down to can the pump be run/pump backwards? Regards,

Does anyone know if you can run this pump in reverse (switch polarity)? I Shall elaborate; These pumps fit the standard canal boat "Pump Out" port (1 1/2" pipe thread), thus it should be possible to extract black waste from the aforementioned port, through the pump and into, carry-away containers (for the sack of argument, we shall call these Cassettes), these cassettes can then be disposed of, via the chemical toilet, waste facilities. What's that got to do with running the pump in reverse I hear you ask? Well, once the cassette/s has been filled and you have turned off the pump, it will still contain black water residues, 'Phoooo', however if the pump can be run in reverse for a few seconds, clean water can be flushed through the pump and back into the boat, purging the nasties. I have looked at the Jabsco 'exploded', parts; engineer drawing and it would appear that reversing the motor should not pose any detrimental effects on either the Cutter or the nitrile Impellor! If anyone has had actual experience of running this pump in reverse, either by design or through crossed wiring, I will be most grateful for any feedback as to whether this caused any adverse effects to the pump. Regards,

It's me, I'm back and I'm very pleased to say I'm not pushing up daisy's just yet, I'm back to "boast" about my welding skills, I must say the grey stuff didn't let me down. Joking aside the welder and rod combination worked a dream, not one stuck rod, which was my biggest fear. I would certainly not claim that the welds were the best I'd ever seen, but they were pretty good considering the forty odd years since last having a go and much better than the ones I ground off, that the the boat fitter (not shell builder) had done. Tony and anyone else who dismays at their old style cheap, heavy, Sip type welders, I recommend you try one of these modern cheap (£129.99) inverter welders, I'm sure it's far superior to the ones I used in the old day's, brilliant live arc on 110A and 2.5mm rod, good melting of both uxtor plate and angle, I even turn the amperage down to 100A and would have probably tried a slightly larger rod if I had one and a place and time to practice. The whole welder isn't much bigger than a shoes box and weighs under six kilo, absolutely amazing. Plug unit directly into the 16A shore-line, Fire chief (wife) stood by with the water hose running, disconnected house and gen-set batteries and engine alternators also turned off PV, MultiPlus and isolator, to hard to reach engine battery, haven't started engine or gen-set yet but inverter and PV's seem to be doing their job. Thanks to all of those who posted advice and opinions, apologies to those I didn't see until after the works had been completed. Regards

Nicknorman A special thanks to you, because I upped the exchanger size based on your input. Having thought about it though, I suppose you could spec even a greater output, my logic being that the exchange will naturally top-out when it's heat transfer equals that of the input (nearly equals that of the input, you don't get more out than you put in) I guess the output (radiator temperature) must be just below that of the engine temperature before the thermostat operates. These exchanges are pretty good pieces of kit the whole thing can't be much bigger than a small loaf of bread, even including the solid insulation jacket. I'd recommend that every continuous or winter cruiser install one, free heat, it's a no brainer.

Well the flat plate heat exchanger is now installed (into the calorifier return loop), I must say that I was pretty amazed at how hot the radiators get, the exchanger is rated at 45Kw with 3/4" ports. Unfortunately due to space limitations I was unable to install a 1" three port valve purchased specifically to enable full-bore flow through, or to bypass the exchanger on the C/H loop, however given that the exchanger ports are 3/4" I'll assume that the space between plates must at least equal this area. The circulation pump can now be controlled while at the helm, giving the pilot the ability to operate if or when the engine temperature drops off to much. I still can't believe that the radiators get just as piping hot as they do when the Eberspacher is suppling the heat, at best I was only expecting very warm, exceeding all my expectations, I'll just need to keep an eye on that engine running temperature gauge to see if there's any issue! Thanks for everyone's input.

Hi, Updating my own findings. Yes you can run the Eberspacher pump stand alone. The way that I have wired it up is as follows; Unplug the Eberspachers pump. Purchase a compatible Eberspacher pumps plug and socket. Connect the socket to the previoulsy removed Eberspacher plug and extend the wiring to an ON - ON two position changeover switch. From the changeover switch extend wiring back to the Eberspacher and install the new Plug, then plug it into the pump. you now have a switch that can turn the pump off. Wire in a separate 5amp 24Vdc supply, originating from the Eberspachers circuit breaker. Wire in an amber panel warning lamp beside the changeover switch. Have a electrical panel made for the two position changeover switch and panel warning lamp. Panel heading engraved "CABIN SPACE HEATING" position one engraved "DEFAULT DIESEL BOILER", Position two engraved "FREE HEAT ENGINE MUST BE RUNNING" and the warning lamp engraved "PUMP RUNNING". How it works; Eberspacher not calling for heat, two position changeover switch is in position 1, no panel lamp illuminated. Eberspacher calling for heat, two position changeover switch still in position 1, panel lamp now illuminated, via the Eberspachers feed up to the newly installed changeover switch and back to the pump. When cruising or running the engine the Eberspacher is no longer required to space heat, this function can now be performed by switching the changeover switch into position 2 "FREE HEAT ENGINE MUST BE RUNNING", thus utilising just the Eberspachers pump, the otherwise wasted engine heat being passed, first through the calorifier and then via the flat plate heat exchanger installed into the calorifiers return, thus transferring it's heat into the Eberspachers heating circuit, pump running and panel lamp illuminated. The panel lamp will continue to be illuminated when the engine is turned off, thus alerting the skipper to return the changeover switch to position 1 "DEFAULT DIESEL BOILER". Installed in this way the Panel Lamp will always be illuminate whenever the pump is running, consuming only an additional 20mA and ensuring that the switch is always returned to the default position, upon vacating the helm. Taking the separate 24Vdc from the Eberspachers own circuit breaker ensures that there is no voltage at the pump should the breaker trip or be turned off for maintenance. If for any reason you wanted revert back, because the pumps plug was never cut off you can simply un-plug the changeover switch extension and plug the pump back in. Boat heating panel.pdf

All great advice, not quite sure what Tracy D'arth is implying, Hmmmm!! All steel has been ground-back to bright, unfortunately I'm to far from home for any practice. I'm going straight in at the deep-end. New gauntlets from Toolstation for under a fiver and no socks in this weather (keeping my feet well out of the way). I seem to remember when I was an apprentice that fillet welds were the easiest? So as long as I can successfully strike an arc I'm hoping for the best, even with the cheapo, hand held face shield supplied as part of the kit, otherwise I have several grinding discs, if the results are any good I might buy a decent face mask and take up the profession, I'm sure others have! Welding 60 x 60 x 5 angle as couldn't get 75 x 75 x 6, both inside edges and one outside, no access to the other outside edge, I even have the room to mount up the pigeon poo in the internal corner if need be! Joking aside I appreciate all the advise given and not one of you said get a professional to do it, I like that kind of go for it attitude.

Scheppach WSE1000 130amp Inverter Welder | 230v Hopefully arriving Monday, done plenty of research into cheaper end welders (Sip welders seemed to be in every mothers home catalogue back in the 1970's) that operate on BS1362 fused plug, going to use the 16A shore line and using E6013 2.5mm rods from Electricfix, again very good reviews, it's all down to the grey stuff now, if the results are positive I'll probably boast, if you don't hear from me, I'm either dead or to ashamed to report the outcome!

Blackrose good point, I'm planning to earth clamp the piece being welded, as piece is a snug fit to Uxtor plate and being held in-place by a magnetic angle. Tony you have a good point too "blobby sparrow crap weld" however I'm an OCD, 60yr old, fussy bug--r, only ever having had a few jobs done for me in that entire time, the majority of which I could have made a better job of myself, including the job in question, which is as a result of rectifying and very, very prominent boat builders school boy error, namely installing an exhaust silencer with the pipe running uphill towards the outlet, to make matters worse the outlet is placed direct below the handrail gap where all the roof rainwater cascades down the side of the boat. I spent a lot of time last year removing oil water mix from the engine, vacuuming out the oil water mix, changing oil and filter, running engine for a couple of minutes and repeating the process again and again, until absolutely sure that all traces of water were gone, incidentally, I'm not quite sure how much water/oil mix would have entered the boat if the dipstick had popped out? After consulting the wife we both agreed that I purchase a welder and have ago myself, if all fails, well I'll have to bit my lip and trust a "professional", if we succeed, we save the inconvenience of appointing a third party and end up the proud owners of a new welder. Wish me luck, I haven't arc welded since my apprentice toolmaker days, I understand that striking the arc is a lot easier these days, with inverter welders, that should help with the arthritis, always preferred oxyacetylene gas welding and brazing myself, very little Mig/Tig in those days? Thanks gentlemen all comments are welcome.

Welding an upright 75 x 75 x 5 angle iron stub to the uxter plate. Going to isolate batteries, turn off inverter and PV's, intending to supply the arc welder through the 16A shore-line via a commando plug to 13A socket. Welding is well away from any wiring. Thanks for all the advice given.

Good sound advice, many thanks.

Apart from the obvious (Heat, Sparks, Fumes, Etc) does anyone know if you need to take any precautions when arc welding on a narrowboat? Regards,

Hi Tracy D'arth I understand your logic, however installing another pump is going to involve I/V's, NRV's, & a Bypass, plus another pump with associated wiring and switching. If I can run the Eberspachers pump stand alone, all I would need to do is install a heat exchanger on the engine cooling system and Bob's your uncle, my guess being that the pump wouldn't know where the heats being supplied from, so would presumably have the same life expectancy as if the Eberspacher was doing the heating? Incidentally if I do have to install a second pump, my intention was to install a second Eberspacher, thus building in redundancy if one should pack-up, although not knowing the price of these (German) pumps, I might end up eating my words. If only I could find out; 2) What is being referred to on; pages 17 & 18 of the installation manual. There is an additional relay “(2.5.18) Switch-over relay for water circulation system, to be fitted by customer if required”, could this be what is required, to run the "PUMP ONLY" unfortunately no other information is provided? Many thanks, all views welcome. Regards,

Hi again boating folks, I am asking a questions which I previously raised through a different heading, in the hope off attract a Eberspacher guru! 1) Does the Eberspacher Hydronic 10 (2009) model have the facility to run the water pump 'stand alone' thus circulating the water without igniting the boiler? 2) What is being referred to on; pages 17 & 18 of the installation manual. There is an additional relay “(2.5.18) Switch-over relay for water circulation system, to be fitted by customer if required”, could this be what is required, to run the "PUMP ONLY" unfortunately no other information is provided? I have asked the manufacturer through their on-line portal but as yet have had no reply, any help will be appreciated. Regards,

Thanks again, at least It would appear that there are two options I can try. I won’t name the boat builder for obvious reasons but my boat, specifically the engine bay is absolutely jam packed, to the extent that the engine starter battery sits on the baseplate between the engine and the skin tank, goodness only knows how I’ll change it when the time arises. Either way I will probably opt for installing in the calorifier return to begin with (easiest option) and if that doesn’t work it will be quite simple to either re-join or replace the cut hose and have another go with the more involved skin tank route. I can’t thank everyone enough for the comments, it’s only my second post. The first post was either to technical or fell on deaf ears. If any one can solve the Eberspacher enquiry I will be most appreciative. Regards,

Thanks Cas446, Putting the magazine article aside, the ease of installation is also a significant factor, cutting the exchanger into calorifier return loop and the C/H flow is all at hand and simple to undertake, not least because it's also 16mm and 22mm diameter pipe respectively, as opposed to 28mm from the skin tank, which would also be difficult to route given other services and restrictions (modern engine in a trad stern). If there is the ability to run the Eberspacher pump 'stand alone' then all this should entail is a switch to start and stop the flow, this could even be controlled via the engine ignition circuit, with an isolator for the summer months. Configured like this there is no need to install any IV's, NRV's or bypasses, in the unlikely event of the exchanger becoming blocked the engine thermostat would open sooner and sooner, water heating would take longer and longer, alerting one to the occurrence. Of course in the summer months the exchanger will be sitting there HOT, but without circulation of the C/H loop, lagged this should not represent any significant heat loss. Being a trad stern and having the hatch 'open' when at the helm, would I presume prevent being cooked by the heating system, (most of us are pretty well toasted anyway with our solid fuel stoves!) in any event simply switching off the pump or opening a side hatch would soon remedy the situation. I have emailed the pump question to Eberspachers technical team, but they are yet to respond! After sleeping on it, the skin-tank approach I mean, I can't help thinking that the flat-plate heat exchanger will be competing for heat, against the vastly superior size of the skin tank heat exchanger, assuming that once the engine thermostat opens at it's (hottest) set point, the temperature would then have to drop XX number of degrees before closing at the (coolest) set point, however before reaching the closing temperature and now circulating the engine cooling water at the lowest running temperature, all the time losing heat through surfaces other than the flat-plate exchanger which is where it's required? I'm no thermodynamicist, but my simple installation only involves an Exchanger and a Switch (assuming I can run the Eberspacher pump 'stand alone') that is. Always open to debate and others views, fore or against. Regards,