Tam & Di
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Posts posted by Tam & Di
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Thanks for that Tim. I was not altogether serious, but it was interesting to look at. I can't find any terms to do with the actual operations carried out with a pair of boats, e.g. snubber, snatcher, cross straps and so on. I tried to send comment to them following the prompts on that site, but got a message that the address did not exist
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Yeah - We were going down to Brentford. The boats were loaded, as I mentioned previously, and the line was removed off the butty - The idea being that you took up the slack throwing it (carefully) into the motor cabin. That way you could pay it out (once connected to the butty again) on the way out of the lock using a couple of turns on the dollies and a foot.
I think I did notice some pictures of boats with a long towing line on the bow of the butty, and wondered about it. Of course there are many ways to skin a rabbit, and so different ways of working a pair.
When you say throws to the right, do you mean the stern moves right when in reverse, of the prop wash throws to the right thus causing the stern to move left?
Cheers,
Mike
Well I guess in your case the boats do not belong to any one person, and are not lived on. The thought of dropping a wet line down into the cabin and the mess that must make does set me back. I assume the cabin is not fitted either, as 90' of line being fed out as the butty is taken up would be bound to foul on the range or something sooner or later. Also the thought of the line snaking through around the steerer's feet gives me pause for thought. I guess though that when butties were towed off the mast with running blocks back to the butty cabin it was rather similar, as the motor just dropped the line and the butty steerer took the slack back, though the line would not fetch up in the cabin. It was the butty steerer too who fed the line out as the pair went on their merry way, using a tee stud in the butty roof.
For us, if we were using a 90' snubber I would take it off the motor's dollies as we came into a lock, coil it as the butty came on up, and drop it onto the butty's fore end. Leaving the lock I would pick it back up and take a blind turn round the motor dolly to the butty side and then across onto the other one with the line quite short. This gave me plenty of friction while paying the line out steadily to accelerate the butty as the motor just stomped out. If it was a shortish pound where we were just using a 20' snatcher I would simply fold that neatly over the butty's cratch as it came alongside, ready for me to take up again as we left the lock.
I did say the same as you, that each boatman had his own variants, but I had not considered the possibility of dropping the line into the cabin.
I think most people when they say their boat throws to the left or slews to the left in reverse mean that the stern itself goes that way. I've never met anyone who meant that the prop wash was in that direction, but the more I read on this forum the more I gather that things I thought were axiomatic have in reality become quite confused. A dictionary of boating terms - that's what's needed. Problem nowadays might be that three compilers would come up with three different definition for each term.
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I have read that there are a few specialist narrowboat builders who can build boats to make short channel crossings. If i remember they classify boats as C4 narrowboats for only river and canal cruising C3 can make short hops across the channel, it's possible that c3's may only be wide beam boats which would have a little more stability in choppy waters you'd need a fairly meaty engine to deal with tidal waters. I would think you would have to check the weather reports very carefully too before you attempted it. but as advised earlier a barge would be a safer bet, although they are far more expensive and the cheapest barges i've seen are £130,000 and upwards. You know i'm new to this so i'm only relaying info from articles that i've read.
All things are possible - people even swim across the Channel apparently, though paddling is quite enough for me. Given a sound boat and engine, you then seal all openings - especially at the foreend, but also air vents, windows etc - you put all your belongings into cupboards and jam cushions in to stop anything moving and tie the doors shut. You make absolutely certain all appliances are securely bolted to the floor - you don't want a gas cooker and fridge throwing themselves about in mid-Channel. You make certain your fuel is absolutely clean and that you have a pair of in-line fuel filters so you can change from one to the other should a bit of crud or condensation block the first one - oh, and all the fuel lines and water cooling pipes are not going to fail with the vibration. Then you have to have somewhere to be able to see your charts and compass, and easy access to your VHF radio - all while you are on the back of this thin tube. You're probably not alone, so your crew/mate will have to find somewhere out of the way while all this is going on. Then, as you say, be certain of prolonged calm weather and perfect visibility - not just for you, but it might make you more easily seen by all the super-tankers storming up and down, cause you're a pretty small low-lying thing yourself.
Experts who have been around the sea and canals for much of their lives have done it. I've been out to sea briefly from Dunkerque for a D-Day commemoration with Chris Coburn on his n/b "Progress" (who has crossed a few times) and it was noticeable that the n/b rolled far less than many of the theoretically sea-going craft. The flat bottom and hard chine acted almost like bilge-keel stabilizers. But would I do it myself? No.
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I mean in locks, motor starts to enter lock and is brought to slow back. Snubber taken off, and then butty strapped on motor thus taking motor (and butty) into the lock. I did write the technique up just after I did it, but can't find it now, but I think I've remembered right.
I actually asked him about it, and he said to ensure you could get the towrope off the butty.
Mike
Probably would make sense if I saw it, but assuming you are talking of G.U. locks there's nowhere the butty can go but in alongside the motor so it's not going to be at any great stretch. I assume also you mean dropping the towrope ONTO the butty. I can't imagine he takes the line OFF the butty as it comes alongside and keeps it on the motor in some manner? I also assume you are talking of a loaded pair, as the butty would only be on cross straps otherwise which would mean there was no problem to reach the lines.
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Ah...similar to the Waterworld effect!
TNC are now more akin to the "Last of the Summer Waterland" effect
I don't know why I'm going on about it. In reality France must get more people onto its canals or they will surely die from lack of funding. Also the people we tend to meet are at least those who are interested in learning how to do things right - it's not their fault they are new to boating, and in fact I really enjoy instructing those who want to learn. It just does get a bit wearying at times. It'll be all right in a couple of weeks when we're back on the boat and getting up and running again.
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My heart goes out to the French
To my mind even one Rick Stein is a litter. The worst consequence of his series is it gave birth to "The Rick Stein Effect" - an enormous number (probably a dozen or more in our own experience, anyway) of people who have never been on a boat before other than the cross-Channel ferry and reckon to sell their house and buy a 38m barge that they propose to operate as a hotel boat. "I can do that".
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Interestingly (and I'm sure you can comment on this), when Nick was bringing the pair loaded down to Brentford on the summer coal run he was intentionally putting the motor on the right so that the paddlewheel effect would take the stern left into the path of the butty so that you could take the snubber/snatcher (I never remember which is which) off.
This raises another question - which way does Nuneaton throw in reverse? I understand it is opposite to the normal (GU) way?, so does that agree with David's and the above comment? I've been mostly driving the butty...
Victoria with a proper marine JP2 throws to the left in reverse quite a lot, which is fun sometimes.
Mike
edited 'cause I'm stupid
Do you mean in locks, or breasting before he got to one if it was not made ready?
IF Nuneaton has a left-handed prop it would normally throw the stern to right when you chuck back. I'm sure people here must know, but handedness is determined by initially the rotation of the engine and then by the reduction gear. If the drive is straight through with no reduction the prop rotates the same way as the engine; if there are two or any even number of gears in the reduction chain the prop will rotate in the opposite direction. The actual amount of slew is also a function of the depth of water where you go into reverse, so will not be quite the same if you have deeper water on one side of the boat than the other, for instance in the lock and lock entrance. Also of the speed before you go astern, and the revs you give it then and ......
Although there is a lot of commonality of boating techniques among people who do/did it, there is the basic requirement to get ahead as quickly but as effortlessly as possible. Different people had their own minor differences of style that suited them, and without seeing Nick handling a pair it's not really possible to comment on why he might do some thing.
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Basically if you want to go to sea get a seagoing boat and if you want to stay inland, get an inland boat. There are compromise boats, but they aren't neccessarily particularly suited to the extremes of either environment and will come with a heavy price penalty. You pays yer money and makes yer choice.
Roger
I think "flat bottomed" is a bit of a red herring. The three small coasters we traded with were all flat bottomed, as are most ships. Yachts are a different beastie. Otherwise Roger's comments that I've clipped above are spot on.
There are quite a few narrowboats on the continent now - almost all brought over by low-loader. If you are very experienced (and you say you are not) then you can get away with it. But it is exactly that - you would be getting away with it. Other than a handful of small French waterways with no commercial traffic (but littered with English chefs with nothing better to do), the smallest waterways have locks 40m x 5.10m and the cargo boats just squeeze into these. The width of canal is correspondingly narrow and you would be passing these craft close enough to shake hands with the skipper. The bigger waterways take vessels of 2000 tons or more, and although there is then plenty of space between you and them, you still have to go into locks with them. They are not there to mess about, and they will not be making concessions for the poor narrowboater who is poncing about trying to tie his boat with bits of parcel twine to bollards which are at least 40m apart, and with no way of getting from one end of the boat to the other except by dashing through the cigar tube he lives in (whoops! careful Tam).
We worked narrowboats and I love them, but only in their own place. Modern ones are in a continuum which has evolved to suit UK waterways. Continental waterways are quite different, and the best pleasure craft have likewise evolved, but from a different style of vessel.
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I don't know what has happened to this country! This is how we dealt with it in 1963
Marvellous video. We had 7-8" snow in Twickenham and yesterday I swept our path and the pavement outside. No-one else in the road had done anything and a couple of people commented that if someone now slipped on the bit I'd cleaned I could be sued!!!!!!!
It's very sad that this 'sue them' culture has come here, I think from the U.S. I don't believe it actually happens that people do sue at the drop of a hat (well, you've got to be careful about hats), but with the media going on about it all the time this is the general opinion. People now almost use it as an excuse not to do things, and it also gives them something to moan about.
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the classic M barges had a pair at the bow, but a bit wideley spaced and only a single at the stern.
Would still work though. I think I can see a couple of pins right at the top that the half hitch can be made on to, projecting fore and aft. The flattened mushroom shaped top would act to deter the line from jumping off as well. Can't see why else they would have two bollards, and especially as they are so far apart. With the motor left in head gear you only need the one line when you work through locks.
Many modern repro barge builders (and unknowing owners) assume they are used as they are used on ships - that they are for making figure of eight knots over and over on them. Just need to watch any commercial boat going through a lock to see the error of this (assuming they are able to see and understand what they are looking at)
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Contrary to what David said in the second video, Nuneaton's engine turns anti-clockwise in forward which,when entering a lock and reverse is selected, causes a ''paddle wheel'' efect at the stern to the right. So for ease of handling with this set up I've always found it best to always have the motor enter the lock to the right.Although David has had a lot of experience with N&B, he's had a lot more experience with boats set up in the ''normal'' way so probably forgot himself for a moment.
Also, when travelling breasted, I've found the pair handle perfectly this way.
Keith.
Certainly with left-handed blades it would be best to put the motor on the right side in locks or it would keep throwing the stern out in front of the butty as you chuck back.
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I'm looking at a small barge as a resoration project and liveaboard.
The one I'm currently looking at, a 1961 dutch sailing barge brought over from holland 5 years ago, has an area that requires re-plating:
"the area to be replated is down to 2.4mm. it is 12" by 14" and is above the waterline. there is no pitting reported elsewhere."
Difficult to answer without seeing the report and how this relates to the general condition. I am assuming that everything else is in excess of 4mm as that would be the minimum I would accept. Cannot tell if it is just very deep pits in plate which is otherwise >4mm or if that whole small area is down to 2.4mm. If it is the small area that is thin it is almost certainly wear at some very vulnerable point - perhaps it has been a houseboat sat somewhere for years and rubbing just there? Localised pitting is not impossible - 1960s steel could have been a but iffey. Not generally for such a discrepancy though that all the rest is still OK when that is right down at 2.4mm. If it is just very localised pitting it might be possible to fill with weld as you say - depends on what's behind it as much as anything. On the date though, 1961 seems odd for a sailing barge unless it was built as a barge-yacht. Rather late for a cargo boat.
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Hi all!
I was aware of the thread on Angloinfo, that relates to the 2006/2007 event, the conversation in our local bar was acouple of months ago, it was sparked by a local newspaper artical.
I will on my next visit to the bar ask the main protestor for a copy of the article and will send it to Di and post content on here.
The Brest Nantes was cut in two by the building of a dam to produce electric, the bit below the dam that runs on to Pontivy has problems, but the bit above the dam it would be so easy (by terms of other restorations) to bring back to navigation, the trip from Brest to the lake above the dam would be a real wide beam asset, it would also cause a certain amount of tourist related employment in an area that gasps for work. With Brittany Ferries getting a stronghold on the western crossing points then pushing fairs through the ceiling which has caused many people to loose there income due to loss of trade.
John
Look forward to that. We don't know the area other than by looking at maps. we'll have a word with David Edwards-May at the next IWI (Inland Waterways International) meeting.
The upper Rhône between Lyon and Lake Geneva is on the agenda for restoration for navigation. Plans are drawn up for Freycinet size locks (40m x 5.10m) beside each of the hydro-electric dams which presently make it impossible. We did have a terrific trip onto the top end of the Rhône from Aix-les-Bains a couple of years ago.
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Oh go on Tam.
Keith.
Ohhhhhhhhhhh .......... all right then, but you were warned. It's probably really something for Boat Handling rather than living afloat. It's quite difficult to explain a practical operation like this in words, but I'll do my best.
Most continental ex-working barges, especially those built as a motor vessel (like a Steilsteven or Luxemotor) rather than with sail, have a pair of bollards at the fore end and another at the stern - the latter ones more or less at the door to the wheelhouse, and the fore end ones are well clear of whatever small bulwark might exist. Generally both pairs will be where the hull is still straight, before it turns in for the bow and stern. They will each have a pin or arm running fore and aft fairly high up (NOT joined together like we have seen on some repro barges), and another single one slightly smaller and lower pointing out at about 45 degrees. These latter ones keep the initial turns of the line from jamming.
Although there are obviously personal variations the basic "proper" way used by commercial mariniers is as they enter a lock they will have a crew person on the fore end who has picked up the top of the coil of line; this has an eye about 1m long when 'closed' but the crew has opened it into a loop, with some additional line behind it.
For ease of explanation imagine a 40m "Freycinet" size lock with a 39m barge (péniche). When the boat is almost in, the crew will casually throw the eye of the line onto a suitable bollard on the lockside. They will then take the line in front of the foremost of the pair of bollards on the péniche and then take 3 or 4 turns clockwise around the second one. The foremost one is then acting as a fairlead. With 8" bollards this means there is about 24" of line in contact for each turn. 4 turns gives some 8' of line and the friction of this is ample to allow the crew to gently bring the boat to a complete halt, even when loaded. When the boat is stopped the crew will finish the turns with a half hitch on the top of the bollard or one around each of the 'arms' in turn. The person on the motor will have eased the power as they came into the lock and probably gone out of gear to lose a bit more way as the crew came closer to the lockside bollard they were going to put the line on. As the boat is coming to a halt the motor will be put back in head gear so it is driving against the fore end line which now has its half hitch to hold it. It is left in head gear as the lock fills (or empties), and as the gates open the crew can simply take the line off the boat's bollards and flick the eye off the lockside one. This can all be done with the boat in gear, as the turns are still holding it steady at that point.
Right??
This will hopefully make clear why the line cannot possibly be worked if it has to be fed through a hawse hole somewhere. Working with lines is obviously a potentially dangerous operation, and generally it will be the wife who takes the péniche into the locks and her husband who goes up to the fore end. It can be done in a similar manner from the stern if a boat is worked one-handed, but not to be recommended for the inexperienced. The marinier has to get the speed dead right to leave the wheel and check the boat to a halt.
The Irish IWA reviewed our training video and commented that this style of working was almost certainly used in Ireland as well, as the working craft generally have pairs of bollards similarly positioned.
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At that time most French had little interest in their waterways (rather like Ireland today, sadly). But this friend of a d=friend told me that it was very different now - the Frnch have taken to their waterways in a big way. If true, then the threat posed by VNF seems odd. Or is this just not the case, and the waterways remain substantially underused?
I don't know figures - it could three or four times as many French now. But that would only be a numerical increase from maybe a couple of hundred to a thousand. The French love yachting, but are not greatly interested in inland waterways. The UK DBA (an association for barge users/aficionados) has more members than the French version of the IWA. One reason is they have to have a "driving licence" for anything over 5m and have to be at least 16 before they can steer, even under supervision by a licensed person. On the other hand the French are very pragmatic and you can hire a boat up to 15m without a licence (sans permis). Most of the hireboat and hotel boat operations were started by Brits, though things have changed to a large extent now. Unfortunately it is still rare to hear a French voice on a boat in France, which means it is often the 'foreigners' who are trying to get improvements made and that can be difficult. Obviously we play the 'tourism' card, but it is hard work.
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Hi Tam
Magpie P is right about an article on this matter appearing in one of the waterways' mags. I've just found a lengthy discussion on a forum - link here. The proposal would have affected (I understand the proposal has been rejected now) a section of the Canal de Nantes a Brest which has not been navigable since the 1920s, after a large barrage was built there.
Thanks for that Dominic (and Magpie P). I do recall suggestion to revert it to its river condition - glad to hear it's an ex-proposal. Unfortunately at the moment French waterways are going in the direction UK ones were in the 50s, and several routes are currently unusable or have been down-graded from commercial use to pleasure. The VNF (French BW) are also attempting to hive off various canals to the local Departements which would steadily lead to isolated "Disneyland" canals with no means of getting from one to another by boat.
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That's erring well on the side of caution for most modern narrowboats, I'd say.
Most are built to 6' 10" at the top of the hull, but with a typical width across the baseplate of 6' 6", few will be over 6' 9" at waterline. So the average width of what's in the water is unlikely to exceed 6' 8".
So any estimate based on a 7 ft width is probably going to be of the order of 5% too high, I think, possibly even more, as a 6' 10" width probably includes the rubbing strakes.
Alan
If you look at original gauging books for narrowboats you can see that the "standard" 72' x 7' boat is as near as dammit 1" to the ton. I don't know how many people have an accurate idea of their draft, but obviously you can add draft at fore end to that at the stern and divide by 2 to get the average. For a 50' boat you should get a reasonable estimate of the weight by working on it having 72/50 inches of draft for each ton weight. So if you have an average 18" draft this would mean 18 x 72/50; if you have a modern boat built with 2m wide plates on the bottom you would have to make a further adjustment.
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My idea of a barge is a craft that will actually steer, be quite happy going across the English Channel and be set up/have bits in the correct places so two people (or one in an emergency) can work it through large locks. Also capable of being lived on full time, but not the prime function.
It's amazing how many modern barges/widebeams are built and sold as being suitable for continental cruising but do NOT have their working gear in the right place or of the right type to facilitate this. The most common example is boats with bulwarks so the crew is forced to feed a line through a hawse hole when working a lock. This is fine for a boat when it is moored and on tidal waters where the water level will change, but is totally inappropriate for working through continental locks. Here you work from the boat to the bank, not as in the UK where someone is generally off with a line. It is also very important for a boat to have pairs of bollards fore and aft rather than just a single one, but it's probably too off-topic (and generally anoraky) to go into the whys and wherefores of that here.
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In our local bar (in France) a few months ago there was a very heated conversation.
Some Brussels based Eurocrat had put forward that sections of the (local to us) Brest Nantes canal should be filled in as water quality was below EU standards.
Do you have any definite information on this? We don't know too much about the isolated Breton waterways. Di sits on the committee of the European Boating Association which has influence on such things, and is currently preparing a paper on waterways (particularly in France) which are presently unusable or difficult to navigate which we hope to present at the next meeting at the end of April in Bulgaria. Probably best to send info direct to us rather than on the forum? I'm reluctant to give our mail address in plain text as it is too easy for automated spam senders to get hold of it then, but our names as used here (but with 'and' instead of the ampersand, and with no dots or spaces) at the web address below will work (or you can contact us via the site).
The Canal du Berry system in central France which took boats 90' x 9' (Berrichons) was in a similar position, and parts were even filled in. I don't know what will happen with the economic downturn, but restoration was becoming a serious possibility. This does connect to the main network via Marseille les Aubigny, but the Breton canals and rivers are becoming a major tourist attraction so there would be plenty of leverage to reverse the decision if it is true (rumours do have a habit of taking over though, as I'm sure you are aware)
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There was a whole wadge recently about boating through ice. It's now snowing (in Twickenham, anyway) which makes me think of a more uncommon but magical thing where we would be boating with temperatures more or less zero but before ice formed. It would then snow heavily, and the snow would settle for a while on the surface, and as we boated through it would cause great sheets of snow to move around like ginormous prawn crackers. We're not on the boat at the moment, and anyway it's in France, but it sends shivers up the spine remembering the magical experience.
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Thats a stage set if ever I saw one and he's WAY to clean for a bargee
Well he does sing he's " ... only a lonely old man with a barge". I love his hat though. And was that a quick shot of Brentford depot there?
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gawd!!! Well, watch this space.. I hope it is perfect and lovely! I also hope the BSS wasn't done by the bloke who did the first one on this boat!
....... and of course there are masses of very important aspects that go towards the worth of the boat but which are nothing to do with the BSS, like leaking windows or poor insulation. But I see that Morphyous originally came on with the thread about a boat with no BSS a while back, so hopefully he has not been as naïve as it appears. Anyway I really do hope all goes well for him.
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yeah I know it's gonna cost a lot of money but so would buying a 4 bed detached which is what my outgoing girlfriend wanted!
I haven't seen the boat yet, so it may turn out to be a model!
Wowee!!! I very much hope you will be OK, but to buy something sight-unseen that costs a King's ransom - bet you would not have done that with a 4 bed detached. It does also mean you have bought it from the person who says it is in good nick and worth what he is charging you. I admire your innocence, but do take care - there are big bad wolves out there in canal land.
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Okay - thanks peeps - now I know what my Friday night will be - reading and imagining where I will be next summer :-D
A site of one of your compatriots: http://www.mcdaniell.com.au (vested interest - we do get a mention on it, but we are not with Compuserve now - see below)
Last film of a fleet of stolen working boats
in General Boating
Posted
Suction dredgers have been around for a long long time and are commonly used in Holland in particular, though I have seen them in the UK too. In Holland people dispose of their rubbish "in the containers provided" rather than off a canal bridge. A few years ago we saw a kilometer pound through a large town (Montargis) in central France which had been drained for maintenance. There was just a couple of empty bottles in the mud, although there was a major bridge across the middle of it.