Pete Morrison
-
Posts
17 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Gallery
Blogs
Store
Posts posted by Pete Morrison
-
-
22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Loosen the brass nut on the outlet of the pump (No4) and pump it, if fuel comes out its working.
Fuel comes out.
21 minutes ago, David Mack said:With fuel coming out at #3 when you work the fuel pump, you should retighten #3 then open all of #6-9. Crank the engine at full throttle - you just first get a mixture of bubbles and fuel and then neat fuel coming out of #6-9. Only when you have neat fuel from at least 2 of the connections should you tighten them and crank again.
I did this, I get fuel out of 6/7 (first two cylinders) but not 8/9.
21 minutes ago, David Mack said:If you have reassembled it correctly and not let any dirt get in you should be OK
I think i probably got dirt in. 🤒
28 minutes ago, Pete Morrison said:😳
This could be it...
There is a residual current draw and when I press the "stop" button, nothing happens when normally i can hear a click.
Is it possible that the engine stop has gotten stuck in the "on" position? A burned out relay or the like?
I don't understand how the engine stop actually works... Any idea how I could locate the unit that does the stopping?
Fuel system maybe a red herring.
The engine stop was stuck in the "on" position.
I have now disconnected the wires that go to the engine stop by pulling the spade connectors off of the button. If I touch them to the button there are sparks so i think the button is broken in the "on" position (which stops the engine).
However even now that I have totally disconnected the engine stop button, the engine still won't start.
-
37 minutes ago, David Mack said:
You haven't got a separate engine stop knob/lever pulled out have you?
😳
This could be it...
There is a residual current draw and when I press the "stop" button, nothing happens when normally i can hear a click.
Is it possible that the engine stop has gotten stuck in the "on" position? A burned out relay or the like?
I don't understand how the engine stop actually works... Any idea how I could locate the unit that does the stopping?
3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:Fuel wont come out of 6-9 operating the lift pump with your thumb, It needs the engine cranking likewise 1
Right, i might be misremembering, maybe I open these and crank the engine to get them to bleed?
Have i messed anything up by removing the Union at (2)? Anything I can do to make it better?
-
Here are two extra photos of the whole fuel system, hopefully this will help me explain better.
Some background. Haven't started engine since the winter. I heated engine with a fan heater, charged battery fully with mains, and set the charger to "jump start" (80A booster). Cranking the engine, didn't do anything.
So I think maybe it's fuel. So first, I loosen 6, 7, 8, 9 on top of the cylinders. Pump the lift pump 4. No fuel comes out.
So because my fuel had been running a bit low, I stick 40 litres in the 230 litre tank from gerry cans. I think maybe there is some gunk blocking the fuel lines, probably in the filter?
I loosen the fuel water separator, fuel pours out. Then I loosen the fuel filter. Fuel pours out. So problem seems to be between the filter and cylinders.
So then I loosen #3 - inlet to the injector pump. Fuel spurts out, especially if I pump #4.
Then I loosen #1 - outlet to the injector pump, first cylinder. No fuel.
Aha. Problem between #3 and #1.
So with some difficulty I loosen and remove the union #2. Fuel comes out of the "hole" left where 2 came out. Pumping 4, and more fuel comes.
I then reconnect everything and loosen 6,7,8,9 again, one at a time, and pump 4 each time. Fuel comes out of 7 (second cylinder) and a little bit out of 6 (first cyllinder), but 8 and 9 are totally dry.
I just added an arrow to 5 because it seems odd - that particular lever is sprung, but not actually connected to anything. Has a part fallen off? The sprung lever to the left of 5 must be the throttle, which I have ensured is open full.
Normally, by the way, I only ever touch 6,7,8,9. When I service the engine, I replace the fuel filter, then bleed from each of those valves. As you say, the beta 38 is self bleeding so it's not strictly necessary but I do find the engine starts quicker after a fuel filter replacement if I do this bleeding.
-
3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:
Do not remove it or dismantle it in any way, its a precision unit that you cannot do anything with.
Have i done it some mischief by disassembling the output pipe as shown in the photo? I removed the first union between the injection pump and the nut of the output pipe to the first cylinder. There was a little spring in the union. in the pool of fuel in the hole the union came out of, there was a little bit of dirt.
4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:How are you bleeding the injector feed pipes?
Loosening the nuts on the top of the cylinders, where the fuel pipes enter. Then cranking the little thumb pump on the fuel lift pump under the fuel filter. I normally do this when servicing the engine and replacing the fuel filter. I was attempting this now to try to understand what is keeping the engine from starting - and it seems like fuel is not reaching the cylinders because I cant get it to bleed from the 3rd and 4th cylinders.
8 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:If it has a supply of fuel and a fully charged battery, with the speed control set to full and turned over for no more than 1 minute at a time it should fire up.
Battery is full, cranking for 1 minute - have tried 20 or 30 times with a mains charger / boost charger attached. Speed is set to full, but i think there might be something off with where it is connected to the pump. I'll take a photo shortly.
6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:I can't see any pump bleed screw in the photo, which is where I would start looking for fuel.
Is this a screw on the injector pump (which I called the distributor)
6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:You won't get any fuel out of the LARGE injector unions unless the engine is spinning, and ideally for this start the throttle is fully open. The injector pump rack or the stop control may be stuck in the no fuel position.
Fuel dripped out of the hole where I removed the injector union, and when I pumped the thumb pump fuel did spurt out.
-
A year on im in the same boat so to speak.
Trying to start up my beta 38 again, and this time no dice. I think the problem is fuel. When I loosen the nuts on top of the injectors, i dont get any bleed.
Working my way through the fuel line while pumping the lift pump, and the blockage seems to be at this "distributor" (photo) - if I disconnect that brass pipe that leads from the filter, i get fuel out the end of that. Close up again. Then, where I have disconnected on the first pipe out of the "distributor" (not sure if that is what it is called) no fuel.
When I disconnect the large nut / union that has a male thread into the distributor, there is a pool of fuel which forms in there and spurts if I pump. I did notice a bit of gunk at the bottom of the pool but that could have been a flake of paint from when i undid it.
I can only really get the first nut off because they are so closely spaced, And it was tight and covered in blue paint so doesn't seem like it's meant to be messed with.
After putting it back together, i get a little bit of bleed from the top of the first and second injector when i loosen the nuts, but the third and fourth are still dry.
So, my thinking is I need to get this distributor right off and give it a right good clean.
Is that something I should attempt or is the problem somewhere else?
If I should attempt this any tips?
TIA
-
first class. I ordered four probats. cheers
-
I need to buy a new battery bank for my boat. Looking for maybe 4x 110Ah SLA batteries.
These are what I got last time and was quite happy with them - 120 quid including VAT and delivery which seems fair.
https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product/platinum-leisure-battery-sd6110l-12v-110ah/
Anyone know of any better deals?
-
Definitely the best kept secret on the network. My favourite canal too, and always quiet whenever I've been up there. While in north staffs you have to try their favourite local delicacy, OATCAKES! See feature-length documentary for details. The Old School tea rooms in Cheddleton and Hetty's Tea Shop at the end of the canal in Froghall have excellent breakfasts, scones and coffee.
-
2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
The alternator has to reach a certain speed before it energises and that is usually above cranking speed so the alternator can't energise, so any extra load on the engine will be marginal and the stater motors is specified to deal with that.
Ah ok, so the alternator isn't really providing resistance unless it's spinning fast enough to energise. Thanks that makes sense. Was just struggling to start so was trying to make it as easy as possible. In retrospect that didn't give me any benefit.
-
7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:
It is the amount of load on an engine that determines how much fuel is burned and thus the amount of heat produced, so the higher the load the more heat and the faster the warm-up. I am not sure how much practical difference this makes in real life, but the faster you warm up, the sooner the pistons & rings expand to better seal to the cylinder, so it lessens the blow by with what that can do to the oil. Doing this will certainly give you a faster calorifier warm up.
Usually when starting the engine I'll engage neutral and put it into say 50% throttle (I don't have a rev counter but say about halfway between tickover and flat out). Alternator (obviously) usually running. I let the engine warm up for 10-20 mins (depending on how cold it is) before I either a) kick it into gear and go boating, or b) dial it back to about 25% which seems to be the sweet spot for alternator output, then let it charge my batteries and heat my water for an hour or two. I always assumed it was best to let the engine warm up for a bit before doing anything with it, but I am gathering from the above that it's not really necessary?
7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:A good rule of thumb is diesels like to be loaded so one might a swell do what you can to do so.
Is that the case even when they are just starting up cold?
6 hours ago, magnetman said:Except for putting it in gear while tied to the bank. This is not acceptable although people do still do it.
Good reminder. I would never do this. The only time I have ever tried leaving the boat in gear while not steering is to hold it against a lock (it was someone else's technique that I was giving a go). I didn't like it, made me very nervous to leave the boat in gear.
6 hours ago, Loddon said:One thought 😱
Was it very cold (below freezing) on the day you tried but failed to start the engine?
If it was it could be waxy diesel especially as the diesel that's there will be Sumner diesel without the winter additives
Yes it was, but i did get clear liquid diesel out of the injectors when I loosened them so I think not.
4 hours ago, jonathanA said:I struggling to understand why you would think it's a good idea to disconnect an alternator from a running or even non running engine. Seems a bit unnecessary to me, if not dangerous to the alternator. General wisdom is disconnecting an alternator when running is a way to ruin them.
I appreciate you may disconnecting then starting the engine... but why ?
Well it was just because here am I, cranking an engine for minutes on end while it's busy trying to drive an alternator. I figured the more load, the harder it would be to start. Was that a bad move for some reason? I disconnected it to give the engine an easier job, that's all. I didn't disconnect it while it was running. I let the engine warm up (at idle and without any load) to about 50 degrees (as measured by my calorifier temperature) and then switched off, reconnected the alternator, and since then the engine seems to be starting fine off of the domestic battery.
-
17 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:
1. A bit confused, I thought you originally said that you stooped trying to start when the voltage showed 11 volts.
I'm also confused. I am not sure how the voltage dropped at all when cranking when the starter battery earth was isolated from the domestics. I think maybe there is incorrect wiring connecting the negatives even when isolated - perhaps not thick enough to start the engine, but thick enough that the voltage didn't drop? For now I have removed the starter and just start from my domestic battery.
18 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:2. The blowlamp flame straight into the metal air intake (so you don't set fire to a plastic air filter enclosure or the paper element).
Wow! Ok if I struggle with a cold engine in the future I'll give this a try!
18 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:4. Once it is running and the oil has circulated, why are you warming the engine up without a load, that way leads to potently more wear. It is up to you, but I would run at whatever speed gave maximum charge to maximise the load and give the fastest warm up. probably 1200 to 1500 RPM.
Yes, that's normally what I do if I am running to charge my batteries, but I understood from this thread above that it's frowned upon to increase the revs under no load. So I just let the engine idle and disconnected the alternator to let it get up to speed.
-
Thanks everyone, I have the engine running, but I'm not sure I really understand what the problem was!
1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:Without hearing the attempt to start, it sounds to me like lack of fuel. Try loosening the big pipe nuts on the injectors a turn or two, and then crank the engine. You should get a little spit or drip of fuel from each loose nut. If you do tighten up and try to start again, possibly with a blowlamp in the METAL air intake.
I loosened the big nuts on the injectors and cranked, and lo and behold drips of diesel started leaking. I removed the air filter to expose the metal air intake pipe, and tried again (in case it was some kind of blockage) but that made no difference. For future reference, when you say a blowlamp in the air intake, do you mean blow a flame into it with a blowlamp? Directly in or just near, to warm the air?
1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:How did you connect the domestic battery?
I just connected a thick positive cable from the "domestic" side of the split charge relay to the other "starter" side, essentially bypassing the split charge relay which usually separates the two positives. When I measured the voltage of the starter battery at its terminals, it was only 6V. Then I realised that there was a battery isolator switch that appears to isolate the starter battery by disconnecting the negative linkage between them (not sure the point of this). This isolator was off! When I turned the isolator on, the voltage showed my domestic battery voltage. So clearly the problem was I was trying to turn over the engine at 6V!! I'm amazed it did anything at all really.
So the problem seems to be a dead starter battery. I might just get rid of it and use the domestics only. The make is supposedly a "hybrid" that is happy to act as a starter battery.
1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:No or a few wisps of "smoke" from the exhaust while cranking indicates a lack of fuel. Plenty of smoke indicates a low cranking speed, failed glow plugs or a low compression
Once I solved the voltage issue and I was getting a proper crank out of the starter, the engine would crank and every now and then give a little cough as if it was about to start. Lots of white smoke. It took about 3 or 4 attempts of 30second cranking (the longest I'd dared to do) before it came to life. When it did, the note was a bit more of a deeper grumble rumble than I'm used to.I'm letting the engine run for 30 mins or so (at idle and with the alternator disconnected so as not to apply load) to get it up to full temperature as suggested.
I fear that my once bombproof beta might not start as easily as it used to anymore though
-
8 minutes ago, David Mack said:
That Jump Start setting is probably OK for a petrol engine, but unlikely to start a cold diesel engine.
Get the battery properly charged (or replaced) and try again.
I tried connecting my domestic battery as well to give it a bit more, but that also didn't seem to help. If there aren't other suggestions I'll go and buy a new starter battery.
5 minutes ago, Rob-M said:Have you checked under the engine to see if that 2 litres of water hasn't disappeared through a broken pipe.
I can't tell from the water unfortunately, as there's rainwater in my bilge in any event. I can try to inspect the pipes though and see if there's anything.
4 minutes ago, David Mack said:Do you know that it was full when you last put the engine to bed?
Yes - I recently serviced the engine so I'm 99% sure that it was full. I hope that the leak is external rather than internal to the engine...
-
Thanks - you all gave me the confidence to go ahead and give it a bash.
First attempt was not successfull, however. Here's what I did.
- Powered on glow plugs for 10s or so (I can hear the relay click on and see my voltage dip slightly, so I'm sure they're working).
- Held in start button and cranked the engine for 10s or so.
- Battery voltage was dipping below 11V while cranking so decided to not do that any more.
- I attached my external workshop battery charger to the starter battery +ve and the starter motor -ve
- I set it to its 80A "Jump Start" setting.
- Cranked the engine again. It turns over, but never fires up.
Any suggestions for what's next?
Maybe a red herring, but I did notice that my water level was quite low - it took about 2 litres of water which seems quite alarming, I don't know how it could have lost that much water just sitting idle.
-
Great advice, thank you! Very clever idea to turn it over with the stop button engaged, so that it pumps the oil but doesn't start! And yes I will be sure to run it up to full working temperature when I do.
-
Hello, long time lurker but new to the forum.
I haven't used my boat in about 6 months due to illness. I haven't turned over the engine in all that time. I serviced the engine (oil change, new oil & fuel filters, new belts, checking antifreeze) just two weeks before putting her into storage.
I realise I should have been visiting regularly to turn the engine over but what's done is done.
I've reattached the battery and charged it up with mains, so that seems to be fine. Someone recommended that I remove the glow plugs and pour some engine oil directly in to the cylinders because the oil would have drained down to the sump. but I am a bit afraid to do that?
As it's cold today I'm thinking I will put a heater in the engine bay for a bit and heat the calorifier with the immersion element in the hope that when the coolant starts circulating it can warm up the engine quicker.
I have a full to the brim diesel tank as well (I left it full to try to minimise condensation). Should I be worried about that?
Is there anything else that you recommend I do before I turn the key and see if she starts??
It's a beta 38 diesel by the way, which never gave me any issues in the past 7 years.
Any advice appreciated!
Pete
Starting an engine that hasn't turned over in months
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted
"Random"?? I think I have been quite systematic in the destroying of my engine, thank you very much! 😂 I was working forwards and backwards from where I could find fuel in the line - it's a pity that I didn't know that the primer pump can't push fuel past the fuel pump, BUT now I have learned something.
In fairness, it turns out we were all right. It was the fuel, but it was caused by the stop solenoid having burned out and stuck in the "on" position.
I removed the solenoid, forcibly pushed back the spindle, and replaced it. The engine is now running fine. However, the solenoid is toast. I don't suppose the solenoid is repairable? Do you know where I can get a replacement?
If the engine is running, can I assume that I have not done any damage? or should I have it checked out by someone competent? What sort of maintenance do these injector blocks require?