Rob@BSSOffice
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Posts posted by Rob@BSSOffice
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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:
Why was the ventilation requirement mandatory some years ago? I seem to recall the justification was to avoid CO poisoning. Now it seems that as its advisory the BSS intends to introduce mandatory CO alarms. Seems muddled thinking to me.
You are confusing two separate matters. Ventilation on a boat will protect the ocupants of the boat - put crudely a first party matter.
This proposal is about third party protection which the consultation documents spells out in some detail.
55 minutes ago, larryjc said:This really winds me up. A CO alarm can only be used for the internal safety of those on board.
The consultation documents spell out in some detail that your statement is not correct
3 hours ago, dmr said:?This is actually an interesting development as its another case of the "state" imposing rules to protect people from themselves,...
..............Dave
Dave, not so in this case. It is to protect 'others'
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13 minutes ago, nicknorman said:
Anyway, out of interest is this a consultation for the sake of ticking a box, with the decision already having been made, or will the responses to the consultation actually shape whether this new rule is adopted or not?
We don't run consultations to tick boxes. All opinions are sought. We look forward to all members of CWDF submissions should they choose to participate. It would be a good thing.
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11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:
This is what the BSS “mission statement” says on its front page:
The Boat Safety Scheme, or BSS, is a public safety initiative owned by the Canal & River Trust and the Environment Agency. Its purpose is to help minimise the risk of boat fires, explosions, or pollution harming visitors to the inland waterways, the waterways' workforce and any other users.
So in what way does a CO alarm comply with that?
This question is dealt with at length in the consultation and is core to why it is proposed as a requirement and not advice check or remaining as a strong recommendation.
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As a BSS Requirement, like all the requirements it becomes one of the things that the navigation authority terms and conditions insist on compliance with anytime the boat is in use on the waterway (as on CRTrust, EA and Broads Auth waters)
Comments about cost and benefits and 1st/3rd party protection are answered in the documentation and consultation statements.
The links to the supporting documents I can republish here
There is further information if you need it in the following documents:-
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9 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:
No doubt they will only allow the most expensive and hard to find unit on the market, probably with fitting instructions that are impossible to comply with on a narrowboat, and insist it is installed only by their registered installers at a hundred quid a pop.
I see you read the documention carefully then ?
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A public consultation on a proposal to introduce mandatory new Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) Requirements for carbon monoxide (CO) alarms on boats opens today Friday 17 August and will run to Friday 9 November 2018.
The Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) is running a public consultation on proposals that have the full support of its stakeholder and management committees.
It is proposed to introduce a mandatory new BSS Requirement for suitable carbon monoxide (CO) alarms in good condition and in suitable locations on all classes of boat with accommodation spaces.
The changes affect all classes of BSS examination, private boats, boats used for hire and other non-private boat classes.
The BSS proposals are presented as both necessary and proportionate risk controls and your comments upon them are welcomed. The consultation is open until 16:30 on Friday 9 November 2018.
The BSS will also be taking the opportunity to seek the respondent’s views on the future possibility of introducing similar checks concerning smoke alarms for private boats.
Please share news of the consultation https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/abo…/co-alarm-consultation/
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1 hour ago, Nick D said:
Downsides are the ongoing costs of fuel, storage, noise etc. Any thoughts?
Proprietary inbuilt 'diesel' generators - cost of aquisition
Portable petrol powered generator - you have to run it off the boat to stay safe, you need to run it downwind of your boat and any nearby boats, they produce deadly amounts of CO even 6-10m away from the exhaust pipe, then there's petrol stowage, petrol safety, strict refuelling regime - ashore, not on the boat.
There are upsides, but you know those. So if you go down the portable generator route. Respect your neighbours, respect yourself, look after your genny properly. https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/generator-safety/
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The EA were on the ball with this incident and we were notified within 15 minutes of it happening. We have no certainity whatsoever at the moment as to cause.
A 6 or 13 Kg cylinder exploding would have created a very significant force. A camping stove i.e. push to seal 'Gaz' type camping stove exploded on an open deck trailer sailer on the Broads some years ago. The two crew had to be taken to hospital, but the deck was open to the stars and the boat was little damaged.
Although gas has been mentioned as the cause, we are not yet ruling out the handling of petrol or petrol system issues as a possible link until all the facts are known.
Speculation is usually not helpful in 'the specific' understanding of an incident. Of course it does reveal the various risks that boat owners and crew should be aware of and manage to help keep themselves safe. There's plenty of safety tips on the boatsafetyscheme.org/Stay-Safe pages for anyone feeling a need to refresh or learn new stuff.
One thing can be predicted,- the family will surely be devastated and we wish them all the very best for as speedy recovery as possible, although the long term after effects could last for some time.
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On 17/03/2018 at 19:39, Alan de Enfield said:
Text states :
Solar Battery Maintainer
Water resistant. Including 12v DC power plug, battery clips and connecting cables. Approx 50 x 35 x 2 cm
battery clips, connecting cables, mmmmmmmmm...... ????
- I'd advise anyone thinking about rushing in and waving their plastic at the till, just check everything is appropriate for boats and meets the requirements or think about alternative connection methods if they are not compliant out of the box.
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On 01/03/2018 at 10:16, Mike the Boilerman said:
Or does an expired extinguisher in the boat invalidate the BSS.
Hi Mike, on that specific point, no an expired (or damaged, or guage in the red, or empty) extinguisher would not invalidate the whole BSS Certification for licensing/registration purposes.
However in many of the various bylaws and acts and contract under which the BSS implemented by navigation authorities across the UK, there useually a stipulation that will say something along the lines of '..... you shall maintain the boat to the minimum safety standards specified ... etc, etc, by the BSS Requirements' or expressions similar to that.
In other words you would have a duty to navigation authority to have the required number of recognised portable fire extinguishers. [the expiry date passing in this case would mean it's no longer recognised as a fire extinguisher for the purposes of the requirement]
The reality is that the navigation authority is unlikely to check this aspect, but could - Super Safety Days on the Broads for example may see an extinguisher being checked.
However, if meeting the requirements of the BSS is related to insurance cover, then a dicussion with the insurance broker may be the order of the day - or getting a new fire extinguisher (whichever is easier).
Finally, and critically with this particular item, would you trust it to work fully as expected to help you escape if fire broke out on your boat, and thats a personal decision.
So my first paragraph is the direct answer, the rest is helpful (or not) context to bear in mind.
HTH
Rob
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23 hours ago, rjasmith said:
No need to spend any money to read a BSI or ISO etc standard you know!
Just go to Manchester City Libraries (MCL) Online Reference library (ideally you should become a member as I have and (I think) uniquely MCL offers library membership to ANY UK resident). From there they provide a link to British Stds Online (BSOL) (MCL pays for the BSOL access licence! Thank you MCL!). Enter the Std no of your choice in the BSOL search box and when the titles come up you'll see a little icon on the far right of it (Quick View). Click this and a read only .pdf will come up of the Std's full text.
I've just had a look at BS EN 50291-2 and the paragraphs relating to Recreational Craft are in deed interesting and definitely relate to salty boats ie the alarm must stand up to all sorts of vibration, heel angles, crashing about in waves, salt water splashing about, even non interference with marine VHF etc etc.
Have a read for yourself!
Richard
Awwww I was just about to say that. Yes exactly. However, our sources at CoGDEM (the manufacturers' association) say that nearly all the models to -1 are the same, just produced and marketed before the -2 testing prcess was finalised. They put the same units through the higher (for boaties purposes) test processes. Why do I say this, to save the money of anyone who feels they have to replace a perfectly valid CO alarm.
The hot news is that the list is about to expand. Any day now I'm expecting news of the Firehawk BS EN 50291-2 alarm. I'm planning a social media blast as soon as we have published the new list. Here's the current/old one until then....
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We are running some tests at the moment with mini four-gas analysers. An examiner stepped aboard a boat and the alert shrilled out. - Upshot: snow had blocked the mushroom vents and CO was starting to build up inside the boat and the occupants were not aware.
We're all over faceache and the twittersphere with this message, but your neighbours who are delightfully unconnected to social media may not know or realise the danger. Please can you watch out for them? If you see a boat that has snow all round its roof and/or door vents, and its clear that stove or gas or oil appliance is running, out of community spirit, would you care to let them know if appropriate.
BTW - belt and braces job - have you pushed the test button on your CO alarms lately?
Keep yourselves safe and cosy from kneepdeepinsnow Norfolk
Rob
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On 24/02/2018 at 15:56, Sea Dog said:
They're in a kitchen cabinet?! I'd have gone for putting them in the fridge as the cold will be better for electrical conductivity!
That would be a seriously cold fridge
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On 24/02/2018 at 16:17, MHS said:
The domestic isolator is on the rear bulkhead, immediately where the battery cable enters the boat. The battery bank is just inches away.
Are you offering to help?!?!
On 24/02/2018 at 18:58, MHS said:I’m in total agreement with you Alan.
The reason for my original post, is that I was surprised that they were not fitted on our new boat if they were compulsory.
The problem looking through 170 odd pages of a pdf on an iPhone is that I’m not aware of a search facility to find the one clause you want.
87 pages https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/268789/ecp-private-boats-ed3_rev2_apr2015_public_final.pdf
6.1.5R Are all portable fire extinguishers in open view or their location clearly marked? missing from the list posted above -
1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:
My grandson didn't wake up when the CO alarm went off in the room he was sleeping in. Its been suggested they are fitted with a speech chip
Yep, we are aware of the research and naturally you would have expected us to raise it with CoGDEM and the FIA/FPA. It is a work in progress and no doubts the standards making committees are already on the case. the very moment the competent advice from these body changes, I'll be letting you know.
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9 hours ago, Jess-- said:
I know nothing about the fire in stone / who was involved / how it may have started etc.... but on the subject of stoves & bss checks.... it might help if all bss checkers actually looked at how the stove was installed and it's condition.
on a friends boat I warned them that their unused stove should be in instant bss failure.
obvious faults that I could see
1. cracked joint between stove & flue
2. cracked flue extending 1 inch below ceiling
3. no form of heat shielding near flue, flue runs within 2 inches of T&G, wood obviously discoloured from heat
4. wooden surround of tiled back obviously charred
5. cloth curtain hanging over stove / next to flue
6. soft furnishings (seating / bed) 2 inches from side of stove with severe charring to side
7. stove not fixed downsure enough when the bss was done their boat failed the test..... because their bilge pump had no fuse inline.
nothing was asked or mentioned about the stoveluckily my friends aren't stupid and they could see that the whole setup on the stove was a disaster waiting to happen.
Jess if this event was after 2013 and the examiner is still registered - I need to know - send me a private message with the name and index/registration number of the boat.
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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:
In view of the known dangers, I would suggest none.
It is speculation and maybe we should await the full findings, but how would the investigators identify that the door was intentionally left open, rather than not 'properly closed & latched' and during the night a log rolled within the fire box, pushing the door open and then rolled out ?
Both yes and no - more detail that will hopefully come out of the investigation will be useful
However until then, here some bullet points we are urging people to think about and act on:
Install stoves to BS 8511:2010 (not least the hearth details)
Manitain your stoves - check them routinely, it something is broken - fix it - not roundtuit!! Including door rope and catches.
Run the stove as per instructions - don't run it with the door open
Don't leave a stove running unattended unless you are confident it will be safe without your keeping an active eye on it.
Install smoke and carbon monoxide alarms
Push the test buttons regularly
Alarms are there to buy you vital seconds - use wisely - have a fire action plan. Everyome must know it and being to perform even when waking from 'deepest-sleep-o'clock' (including when its cold, dark freezing wet)
Have grab bag with all your vital bits not to lose in a fire and give you basic clothing/money/phone.
Don't leave extinguishers in the back of cupboards or under piles of towels, blankets, tools etc You need to be able to grab and go in seconds - they are there to help you escape.
Never, never, never, ever, ever, ever enter a boat at one end when the alternative exit is locked on the outside and cannot be opened from the inside. You do not want to be trapped in boat filling rapidly with a. highly poisonous fumes or b. water
These are generic points and are taken from the many non-fatal and the several fatal fires we have recorded and taken lessons from.
17 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:Old style "Much Wenlock" mark II as originally made by Coalbrookdale, (quite different from later Muc Wenlocks made by Aga). Late 1980s or early 1990s, possibly.
However the issue proved to be that the last owner of the boat, who was a considerable bodger, had used a door rope of far too great a diameter. I have since acquired the correct rope, and the catch now closes very convincingly, without the former struggle.He had also used completely the wrong seals to replace the glass in the door, resulting in it cracking, (but not in a way likely to leak).
Unfortunately I guess any solid fuel stove can be rendered far less safe by "maintenance" using the wrong bits.Very useful learning points - hope the peeps reading pay attention. I will report this back to base to take on board.
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6 hours ago, alan_fincher said:
Equally I have in the past had the stove where I believed the front was fully fastened, but it subsequently managed to "ping" open on its own. Not a problem if you are there to witness it, but if you are not.....
Alan, I'm really interested in this. Can you pm/email me the details (do you know make model)?
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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:
In a previous life, when I 'worked for payment' I was involved in the development of components for the Automotive industry, a common method of product &/or safety improvement was the use of an FMEA (Failure Mode & Effect Analysis) which basically looks at every aspect of the product and looks at how it may fail, then the occurrence (chance of failure) is estimated, then the severity (what is the impact) is estimated and the chance of detection and identification of the root cause.
Yes - just like that. Our Technical Committee chair is a NABO member and is a force to behold. In his world there is no room for sloppy thinking and heaven help us (staff) if our papers (or any others) are flawed. The committe will rip them to shreds. And that is exactly as it should be, tested thoroughly.
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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:
The problem with most regulatory environments is that they are formed by successive responses to individual incidents sometimes of varying probability.
Not in our case. Otherwise there would have been CO alarms imposed in 2004 and smoke alarms imposed in 2007 responding to some individual incidents. The committees always go back to first principles and test all points. see Alan d E process description.
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On 02/02/2018 at 13:19, Naughty Cal said:
Now I know that some of you will not agree with this petition but some of you may be interested.
Thanks P, was not aware of this....
So for private boats, priavtely managed in private use, i.e. private leisure and pleasure or owner-occupied domiciles, the the navigation authorities (via BSS Requirements) does not regulate on matters related to first party issues, carbon monoxide poisoning being the prime example. The owner/skipper has that burden of responsibility. The navigation authorities regulate on the risks that a boat presents to other people and property surrounding it (fire, explosions, pollution)
However, Examiners still have commonlaw duties of care and the the HSE advised us that we should continue to check and advise on risks such as faulty flues, appliances and under-ventilation that could lead to carbon monoxide dangers - hence the checks we call advice checks related to those issues.
The BSS is also asked to devise, produce and promote CO safety tips and advice - hence my occaisional outbust hereabouts offering the best information we can lay our hands on.
In 2016/17 the BSS Technical and Advisory committees have been tasked with the job of the 'consideration of alarms (CO & fire) on private boats'.
There are three basic scenarios
- no change
- introduce advice checks
- introduce requirements with checks to meet BSS certification
In addition, these basics can be mixed and matched to certain circumstances like the hire boat checks and those relating to buildings. For example hire boats only have to have a working, suitable CO alarm on a hire boat with a solid fuel appliance. Hire boats only have to have suitable working smoke alarms when there is overnight accomodation i.e. not a day boat.
As a hypothetical thought, it could be said that only boats with petrol engines in use (generators/outboards/inboards) need CO alarms as petrol exhaust fumes have killed the last nine boat victims on pleasure craft.
However gas appliance have a record in fatal and non-lethal incidents and solid fuel stoves have also been cited in inquests as well as regularly featuring in alarm actuations we see on social media.
So it would be good to resist knee-jerk reactions either way to teh petition. In preceding posts there have been some very good and thoughtful posts made for and against the petition as written. It is those thoughts and all the shades of grey in between that need to feed into the consideration when it starts.
As such, I recommend you feed your thoughts to NABO, IWA, RYA, AWCC, TBA (the Boating Assoc) as and when asked on whatever comes out of the discussions.
I hope this helps.
Rob
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On 23/01/2018 at 15:00, dor said:
It was not clear what the source was, although the DTI removed the gas fridge, but the size of flame on those would be unlikely to be enough. It was suspected that the cooker rings were run and poor ventilation was the cause. He was a pharmacist so you would think he was aware of the risks.
I think that's the fridge we took off to Dometic to examine, but they could not find a fault. The Coroner's expert witness identified a hole in the gas heater flue, but did not conclude it was significant.
However gas fridge flames have been the known cause of incidents of CO. The key thing to keep on top of is the burner and not letting rust and rubbish build up on top of it. Always too have the flue pipe properly sited and in good condition. Routine servicing is a good thing to have with all gas appliances. -
On 23/01/2018 at 16:29, ditchcrawler said:
No electrocutions ?
Good question. We get to hear about very few electrocutions. As such we can be moderately confident that there are very few if any deaths in a marine enviroment by electrocution. But I don't think we get to hear about 'jolts', perhaps the wider audience here know something or have experience to share?
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On 23/01/2018 at 15:56, Wanderer Vagabond said:
Add to that whether or not there is someone at BSS whose role it is to collate incidents or coroners reports, I don't know, and I would suggest that reporting is a lot lower than the actual number of incidents and near misses.
That's me and my colleague Dave. Without any shadow of any doubt there is under-reporting. And that is at two different levels. Firstly with totally miss some incidents - in some ways the most critical and useful ones. they are the close run events, the minor flames and smoke, the CO alarm activations. These incidents are the most useful be cause there are survivors, witnesses and little enough damage to get the full story of what happened.
The second sort of under reporting is the 'detail'. So we get to hear about a fire, but we never get understand who, what and how it happened. the incident gets logged but no lessons are extracted.
Like the MAIB or role is not to appoint blame or point fingers at individuals. It rather to learn lessons and share that learning with anyone where it can give greater benefit - with boaters, navigation authorities, the marine industry, boating organistions, fire service, industry groups etc.
- I'd advise anyone thinking about rushing in and waving their plastic at the till, just check everything is appropriate for boats and meets the requirements or think about alternative connection methods if they are not compliant out of the box.
Consultation opens on proposal for BSS Requirements for CO alarms on boats
in General Boating
Posted
The evidence from the MAIB investigation, other incidents and additional reasearch we are doing - all in the past 15 months - that shows it is a thrid party party issue. And this has coincided with evidence coming through from the health sector that CO in small densities may still be harmful.