Hilda

May 1, 2022

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

Well done for persevering and getting it resolved. Hope you and your mum have some happy boating

Thank you. 😊

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

Well done for persevering and getting it resolved. Hope you and your mum have some happy boating

Well that's not right... I wouldn't dream of that.

I asked for help and loads of folks gave me ideas and support...As I became more confused!

I was dragged up with better manners!

So on behalf of all of us who receive help from you knowledgeable lot, a huge Thank you!!

April 30, 2022

Hello all

Well as promised, i'm back with updates after visiting the boat today

And

Mystery solved.....

It turns out the valve closest to the pump, under the sink wasn't a quarter turn, it was just stuck!! And one strong chap later, it is once again loose functioning correctly and the water sysyem is restored.

Mum and I would like to thank each and every one of you that took time to respond and help us. I learned a lot that I'm certain will be useful in the future.

Best wishes

Jayne and Hilda.

April 25, 2022

6 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Here to help.

Thank you👌😁

April 25, 2022

6 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I don't like gate valves used as shut off valves for tanks. Its too easy to overtighten them trying to get a complete shut off. Much better to use a quarter turn ball valve that gives an instant shut off without having to use force. like this one,

This could be a straight swap if your existing valve is 15mm compression and you can move one pipe enough to get it in. Much easier to use and less likely to fail with overtightening.

Do you have large spanners or pipe wrenches, or waterpump pliers etc.?

Hi

Yes, we have lots of the right tools and could in theory swap them over, (once the tank is empty, I will look on Saturday to see the 'mm' and perhaps sort swapping to the type you suggest. I know the second valve is only a quarter turn one. Dad was very cautious and put stop valve/ taps all over... I think there is another in the bathroom too!

Thanks very much for the advice... I'll run it by mum n see of I can sort it.

Best wishes

Jayne

April 25, 2022

14 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The picture I posted is a 22mm compression valve, the size will be on the body casting, !5mm would be normal.

This picture is a threaded BSP valve, more difficult to change for you.

Righto, thank you!

I think a look at the valve and a picture will help you guys help me enormously...

I'll be back at the weekend with pictures.

Cheers!

Jayne

April 25, 2022

3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The gate is a wedge shape, it fits in a corresponding wedge shaped slot in the body. If the valve is forcible screwed shut it can jam closed. When it is again forced open, anticlockwise, the spindle snaps and leaves the wedge in the closed position. The top of the valve does unscrew but they are usually very tight, doesn't help anyway as it needs a new valve.

You will have to empty the tank. You will also need good access to change the valve. Send a picture and we will try to match the valve up for the easiest swop.

It is most likely to be a 15mm compression gate valve but could be a threaded BSP valve. Does it have 2 nuts on the pipes as the picture? If so its compression and you will probably not need to change the nuts or the olives that are crushed onto the pipes.

Empty the tank either with a pump or a wet vac (tedious) or if you can get to a pump out, can you get the hose into the tank? Yes I know it is drinking water but that will be the quickest way.

I will take a picture on Saturday, but from memory it has 2 nuts like the picture... I never thought of a pump out, it a wet vac. I'm sure mum has one of them and I know she has a generator.

I am so very grateful to you and everyone else trying to help me sort this for mum.

I'll be back at the weekend with the pictures of the valve, pump and pipework everyone is requesting

Thank you again.

Best wishes

Jayne

3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Not if its a gate and the spindle has left the gate jammed in. It will still feel the same.

Ok... Thank you.

I think pictures and empty the tank are my next step.

Your help and advice is very much appreciated

Jayne

April 25, 2022

3 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

A gate valve that has become stiff can usually be made easier to turn by slackening off the gland nut under the handwheel. Once freed, it can be re-tightened if necessary.

Thank you! Another trick to try! Most appreciated.

Jayne

April 25, 2022

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is not unknown for the gate on those valves to drop off while the gland that prevents any leaks at the spindle still gives some resistance to turning. From your descriptions I think this may be what has happened and I fear there is no way to deal with it without draining the tank down unless you are happy to risk mopping up a tank full of water, can squash any hose between it and the tank, or freeze the pipe between it and the tank. In realty I think for someone less used to dealing with such things tank draining is the sensible way.

As long as access is fair I think I would loosen the big nut on the outlet side and see if water came out, more that just a trickle. Note loosen, NOT take it right off just in case. Then tighten and repeat on the tank side. That should show if it is the valve at fault or a blockage in the tank outlet & pipe.

Edited to add: In the light of Mike's comment I can say that I have one at home that feels stiffish but can be turned far more than three turns but it does not stop the water flow. The key is "three turns and then stops itself" in either direction.

This is very helpful.. I understand how loosening the nuts either side will help me inderstand if it's the vslve at fault. I will count the turns on Saturday, but in my head it's more than 3... I'll chack n report back.

I am chatting with mum to explain all your (and everyones) fantastic advice.

We are very grateful.

I will drain, then loosen the nuts on the valve. If it needs replacing, that's someone else's job, it's too much for me!

April 25, 2022

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

The point is not whether it turns, it is whether it turns in one direction about three whole turns and then stops. Does it do this? And once stopped, does it then turn 3 whole turns in the opposite direction and then stop?

If yes to both questions then the valve is probably working correctly.

Ah, I see... Yes, it does turn as you describe. Sounds like it's working then! That's That theory gone then. Thank you for helping me eliminate that!

Cheers Jayne

April 25, 2022

1 hour ago, Peugeot 106 said:

If you use the water pump off the boat be a little careful as they are often not rated for continuous use. You may be better running it for a while then letting it cool down before running it again. They do not normally pump this amount of water in one go and if you just run it continuously for a long time without letting it cool you may run the risk of burning it out

good luck, you’ll get there in the end

Thank you for the advice... Mum thinks she has a drill pump as described by another person (dad bought it for filling diesel but never used it). So at least we can empty the tank and take it from there...

Thank you very much for the caution though.

1 hour ago, Bod said:

How old is the boat?

Does it have a "built-in" water tank?

How high from the floor is the outlet pipe from the tank?

You may have a dip tube inside the tank, to enable the full contents to be used.

In my case, as below, this tube can rust up enough to stop the flow.

If you are lucky then this rust can be removed (BUT only for it to grow again ).

The cure I used was to blank off this tube, and replace it with a new one, in copper.

Bod

Hi thanks for this...

I understand stainless steel doesn't go rusty so we doubt it's a blockage issue... But I will get a torch in once it's empty to check. Your picture has helped greatly in helping me see what I need tp be looking for. Thank you.

April 25, 2022

Yes, it's one of those, like the picture... And it's not overly difficult to turn, but has a bit of resistance. That's why i'm unsure if it's stuck or not.. I think it is.

Any idea how to get it to move without having to empty the tank manually (with a drill pump kindly advised earlier)

Thank you for you advice and response.

Jayne

Just now, Hilda said:

Yes, it's one of those, like the picture... And it's not overly difficult to turn, but has a bit of resistance. That's why i'm unsure if it's stuck or not.. I think it is.

Any idea how to get it to move without having to empty the tank manually (with a drill pump kindly advised earlier)

Thank you for you advice and response.

Jayne

I'm really sorry I can't get a picture until Saturday, as I live a long way from mums boat... I will take pictures on Saturday and post here if I can't fix it then.

April 25, 2022

3 hours ago, Thames Bhaji said:

The stopcock closest to the tank - would you be able to remove the pipes from that one, or is it too inaccessible? That’s where I’d start if possible. If you can manage it, it would tell you a bit more, and if water was present you could catch the small amount in a towel before reconnecting. But don’t risk it if you might struggle to get the hose back on because of where it is. What sort of pipework is it there - rigid / flexible?

yagain.yeah, sadly it's at the back of a cupboard inside another door. I can reach it easkily, but to get inside with 2 hands and use tools would be impossible. I think it's gonna be a case of empty the tank as suggested by another lovely respondent and then cut that bit of copper pipe and replace the Stopcock.... I might try banging it with a hammer first though!! 😆

Thanks for your response it helps greatly to know fellow boaters are trying to help.

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The link I gave earlier was to a drill pump that takes 6mm hose, rather than 1/2". 1/2" ones do exist and a search will find them. For example.

Thanks Jen! I'll take a look now.

Best wishes

Jayne

April 25, 2022

4 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Anything is possible.

Lots of ways to do this. The important thing is to use a hose down the water tank filler port that is small enough to get through, but for the standard 1,1/4" or 1,1/2" BSP filler ports, any1/2" water hose is fine.

Put a bit of 1/2" ID hose pipe down the filling inlet far enough to reach the bottom of the tank. Get a battery electric drill and a drill pump. Pump water from tank in to the cut.

Alternatively, remove the water pump you already have, take it outside the boat and connect that bit of half inch hose to the inlet. Extend the water pump wiring outside the boat temporarily and pump the tank out in to the cut. You may need to get the pump low down relative to the tank, especially if you need to restart the pumping with the tank relatively empty, as they don't like pulling water up a great height. Many pumps don't like running dry, so be ready to turn off as soon as it does.

There are also various hand pumps around, but these will be hard work with so much water to remove, so I'd go for electric.

Jen

Thank you for the great advice abd information... I'm thinking a bit of muscle power and a manual pump might be easiest... I'm convinced it's that stop-cock as I can't hear water flow when I open it.

Thanks again.

April 25, 2022

Hello Everyone

Well we've been back twice and still don't have any water through the taps.

I LOOKED at the pre-pump filter as suggested an there was no sign of water getting to it once we had both stop cocks fully turned anti-clockwise (we tried clockwise too just in case).

SO I OPENED the pipe work at the point immediately after the second stopcock which is under the sink very close to the filter and pump (a matter of inches) and as suggested sucked on the pipe for as long as I could and as hard as I could... I even had a bike pump at one point. No water came through. So I tried blowing an asked Mum to watch the water tank to see if she saw any bubbles, She did not.

Given we still hear the pump, have good battery power and can not draw water manually to the point in the pipework immediately prior to the pump, as described above.....

what do you lovely, clever folks think to my thoughts that it might. Be a stuck stop cock... the main one closest to the tank

(located behind the front locker and accessed via a small pixie door, just big enough to get my hand in)? And if I'm right, how do we empty the water tank from the small inlet in order to get the stop cock replaced or fixed without flooding the hull?

I tried using the 'fish tank' method of sucking on a pipe until the water back flows out, but after many many attempts I couldn't get the water to flow out.

have you guys any idea where we go from here please?

Any other ideas on what to try or anything we might have missed given we have tried absolutely everything you kind folks have suggested in your previous replies.

for whatever reason Mum is very reluctant to take it to a boatyard so I am doing my best to try and sort it for her. I have a degree in Electronic Engneering so I understand Electrics and I know the piping layout and can do basic plumbing but I am at a loss as to why good old fashioned sucking the pipe at source hasn't worked.

sorry for the long post... I am just trying to fully explain so you guys can assist.

Many Thanks

Jayne (The fixer Daughter, and Hilda - The Mum)✌️️😁

March 30, 2022

On 28/03/2022 at 17:54, Bod said:

Back to basics.

Which tank did you fill?

The tank filler point should have a label saying what the tank contains.

Don't feel bad at answering this, a forum member did recently make a posting where an inexperienced crew member did fill the wrong tank.

If you have filled the wrong tank we can advise how to rectify this.

Bod

Hi

thank you for saying not to feel daft... I am 100% certain it's the water tank as I've filled it for her for 7 years since dad died. And the screw lid is stamped 'Water' for the terminally daft like me. I honestly think I've got myself confused with open n closed stopcock.... and as Mum simply can't get down under and inside cupboards now I gave to do it.

My patents have had a narrowboat since as was a nipper, (and that's a good few decades), so I should know this, but stress on the day made it worse.

i'll report back to everyone who's been so kind once I know if it is Taos, stopcocks or air that needs sorting.

kindest wishes to all

Jayne and Hilda

March 28, 2022

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

I think you left the stop cock closed.

I concur!! That'll be the 1st thing I check.... I had got my knickers in such a knot and confused myself that it was best to just leave it and ask for help!

March 28, 2022

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

any chnace you have a bit of hose lying about on the boat that you could tape to the tap outlet, then suck on that.

Good idea, thanknyou I will try that.

5 hours ago, Tony1 said:

If I may be so bold Mrs H, I think the thing to watch for when winterising is that you don't drain all of the beer containers on the vessel.

Even more important, never completely drain the whisky bottle before winter.

I've seen this lead to a collapse in crew morale.

Love it..?? And Dad would be 'on board' 100% with that philosophy!! 😉😂

March 28, 2022

14 minutes ago, haggis said:

I don't know where you get the "most people don't empty water tanks when they winterise the boat" We certainly do and then drain down all the pipes and empty the calorifier and I don't think we are alone. If you are leaving your boat over the winter, it makes sense and prevents you coming back to a burst pipe. Those living on their boats, of course have no need to do this.

Thank you for that... Dad taught us to do it, so we do!

March 28, 2022

Skipton here... 30+ years for my parents. 😁

I'll have a look for mum n get my choppers round pipes or taps as necessary for her!

Thank you very much for replying

March 28, 2022

Thank you for the giggle...

I will try this as i'm pretty sure, based on other comments it an air in the pipes issue... I will look a sight perched on the draining board won't I.. I'll shut the curtains!!

Thank you again... It's great to get some support and advice.

March 28, 2022

Hi everyone that's been kind enough to reply with advice.

I will be going back to the boat next weekend to try out what you've all suggested including checking for air/ debris in the pipework or filter and seeing if air comes from the pump and taps.

I will post pictures of i'm not successful in getting water through the taps and hopefully then you lovely people can tell me what's what...

It might be a new pump or it might be I don't know how to open a Stopcock (shame)... Mum.and I are extremely grateful for each and every reply.

Thank you

March 28, 2022

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

I don't understand why the tank was emptied in the first place? It might depend on the type and location of the water tank but most people don't empty water tanks when winterising their boats.

It could be that because it was completely emptied, debris and corrosion in the tank has blocked the take off spigot & pipe.

I'd start by checking the water pump strainer.

Thank you for your reply. Empying the tank was just a habit we picked up from Dad... Something to do with the risk of split pipes in frost which we get a lot of in Yorkshire...

I will definitely be checking for blockages everywhere, but understand that steel tanks don't corrode, so based on replies here, i'm thinking air blockage somewhere.

Most appreciated thank you.

March 28, 2022

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

How are your batteries? Is there enouugh power for the pump to run at full whack?

Have a look at the pump itself. If you can't see any water coming through the pipes, take off the outflow pipe , give a tap a quick buzz and see if you get wet. If not, that's where the problem is, if you do, it's somewhere else.

As someone has said, I suspect the pump isn't priming - it's not pulling the first bit of water to the pump so it's trying to pump air. Keep it running for a bit on a single tap and it might get round to it. Or you may need a new pump...

Thank you very much for the advice. We will return to carry out the instructions you and others have advised next weekend ( mum lives a fair distance from her boat and obviously with no water she had to return home).

I tend to agree, given we have 13.4V on the batteries that it's the pump not priming.... A risk when emptying the tank (habit of Dads in winter).

Thank you again.

5 hours ago, Thames Bhaji said:

Our caravan used to have switches in the taps that turned the pump on - I’ve never heard of this being used on a boat tho. Can you tell us what is written on the pump, or add a photo?

Hey.. Dad was an Engineer mechanic by trade and built the boat and he put in a lot of extra switches and places where things could be isolated just incase. We definitely have a pump switch it's clearly labelled. Thank you for responding. It is grratly appreciated.

March 28, 2022

6 hours ago, MtB said:

To open a stopcock you turn the handle anti-clockwise, looking down on it from above.

To open a quarter-turn valve, the handle, lever or whatever must be in line with the pipe. If it is perpendicular to the pipe, it is by convention turned OFF. This is generally the case but very occasionally, I encounter an exception.

It sounds to me as though there is a valve closed. This can't be that hard to resolve as you can hear the pump running. The puzzling bit is that it stops when you turn the taps OFF. Do I have this right?

I can come and have a quick look and diagnose it if you wish, if you happen to be on the southern Oxford.

Thank you.... If so rem4mber (it was Saturday) The pump keeps going a few seconds only.

I think from the minimal knowledge I have its either we've got ourselves confused with the Stopcock being open or closed, it's got a blockage (unlikely as its a stainless steel tank which has been kept serviced etc) or, the pump is pulling air..

We are very grateful for your advice and offer... We are on the Leeds Liverpool, but thank you.

March 28, 2022

Is there any water in the tank?

YES freshly filled to the top with steriliser. We were trying to empty it out ready for refill. Thank you for checking though!

Are u sure you have the stop cocks open, they may have been open and you turned them shut ?

I've looked up the direction to ensure the stop-cock is open... Anti-clockwise full and quarter respectively... and That will be the first thing I check upon our return tomorrow. Thank you for your suggestion.

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