Lady_Why
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Posts posted by Lady_Why
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*we can speculate that he went back to the car, couldn't find the required size (8mm) and used 10mm that he flattened with the hammer - without informing me. This is feasible, but his reputation suggest he would only have done so if he deemed it to work 'as well' as three rings of 8mm. If it doesn't drip for the next few years, I guess the work is good.
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13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
Having a less than favourable impression of many so called engineers on the inland waters and taking into account he only got two rings in I suspect he used the wrong sized packing so as he flattened it, it got wider thereby preventing the third ring being fitted.
When he pulled the pusher back did he do anything to search the bottom of the hole like trying to screw soem thing into old packing or poking about with a spike?
I had to go away briefly to get a hammer for him, so that was the one stage I missed. Hence, why I asked if he had removed the old packing (since I didn't see it). Tbh, that is pretty basic, so I can't see why he would 'not have done it'. Your reasoning on flattening sounds fair though, but he did measure it before going back to the car to get the packing.
In the end I can only share (1) engineer's reputation on the cut so others can evaluate the value of the source (2) what I observed, and (3) what answers I got to my questions. The rest would require a crystal ball.
I should add that out of 4 engineers on this stretch (one of which is a suspected cowboy), he has the best reputation and people will cruise to 'his area' in order to get his service. I do keep my ear to the ground on the particular stretch I cruise. He may not be perfect, but word tends to spread if your jobs are dodgy and I chat to a lot of people. So whatever expertise he is presenting is built on his experience. Should I get reason to suspect his expertise on gland packing, I will come back and post an honest retraction. I don't invest pride in these things. But since it is a relatively easy job and his reputations goes back years, I find it hard to believe he would not know how to do it at this point or know how to to it but risk his reputation by doing a sloppy job.
People are at liberty, of course, to take away from this whatever they want. I am only sharing the experience. My primary reason for posting was that a lot of people seem to take their boats out of the water for this job, and it seems unnecessary.
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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Are you sure he only put in 2-pieces? you could be besmirching his 'solid reputation'.
The normal standard is to use 3-pieces with the joints at 120 degrees to each other so as to present a minimum leak path.
Definitely 2 pieces with joints as you described. He said in some cases that is enough. I was watching the job he was doing, so I doubt he would risk his reputation on something as small/non-costly as that. He packed each individually tight by pressing/pushing them in with the slider. If people can fit in 3 and get the nuts back on, then of course go with 3.
49 minutes ago, David Mack said:I find that hard to believe. Packing does wear in use, but I can't see that it could have worn away to nothing. If that was the case the gland would have been leaking copious quantities of water (and grease) for a long time. I would be concerned that if he took no old packing out, it is still in there behind the new pieces.
Prior to him coming, the gland had been on/off dripping heavily and the grease had been coming out on the inside for quite a while (I was not aware that the grease is meant to go 'outwards' rather than 'inside' and that a build up of grease around the gland is suggestive that it is time to repack). I asked if he had removed the old packing, which was when he said there was nothing left (I am guessing that minor remnants had deteriorated and become part of the grease that was removed ). Even while he was working there was no water coming through. I am not an engineer though, so I am not sure why no water was coming through while working, but as an eye witness I can confirm it.
35 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:Perhaps the muck was doing the job?
Hammered it flat? Why?
Always done them in the water, a poly bag wrapped around the shaft forward of the prop will stop any leak.
Presumably to more easily fit them in and ensure the fit is snug. -
Hi everyone. I thought I should just add some real life experience on the topic. I just had mine done in the water and after chit chatting/observing with the engineer the sum of his expertise is that in most cases you can repack while in the water - although he mentioned one rare type of set-up that leaks masses while you're doing the job (I unfortunately did not jot down the name) so I guess a good bilge pump and nerves may always be handy. Mine did not leak at all (see pic of mine to identify type) and was easily repacked while on the canal. He literally just wiped off all grease, unscrewed the nuts and slid it back to discover that I had the impressive amount of 0 packing left.... ? and then cut two pieces to size, hammered them flat and squeezed them in before tightening it all up again. Piece of cake, so I will do it myself next time. He used graphite, btw and he is an engineer with very very solid reputation on the Grand Union, although he didn't seem to feel there was a massive difference which you use.
I hope this assists someone in the future. ? Also, found a good link for the dizzying amounts of stern gland set-ups out there.... if anyone fancies the extracurricular activity or to identify their own. http://coxeng.co.uk/stern-gear/stern-glands/
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26 minutes ago, dmr said:
If you really do have millscale (is this a very new boat?) then I think you are correct, just do it in anything for now and maybe do a bare steel/epoxy in a few years time when you are better prepared. In fact even if its not millscale I would postpone the epoxy for a while.
Note that there might be an argument for using Vactan over lightly rusted steel but not over bitumen or anything else. I believe its not a good primer, its only attraction is that it bonds to rust. Any potable blacking is likely the best option.
If you do the big epoxy job in summer you will not need to take the boat out of the water which might be much easier, though ideally do it at a boatyard or otherwise get access to a needlegun to remove the stubborn bits.
No, not a new boat. The bitumen must have come off and the exposed steel gotten millscale. OR it was millscale on it from the very start in 1987 and people have just painted over it for some reason. There is a definite difference between the clean steel & dark millscale.
I could do a blacking, but I guess I'm concerned at the hard work of taking it off to do an Epoxy later. Ultimately, I want to work towards an Epoxy given the all around concerns about bitumen in water tanks.4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:I would disagree unless .the water in the canal is over 15 degrees, epoxy will not cure properly below that temperature. Its easier out of the water, the condensation in the tank by the operator breathing is lessened.
If you want to get this job over and done with, slap 2 coats of bitumen on, its all that was used long before we were born and it worked then.
Going all fancy with epoxy is fine but if the prep is not correct, ie. bare steel, its not right and possibly a waste of time and effort. You know bitumen will work.
Its like when they were re-roofing York Minster after the fire. The choices were steel or oak trusses, they could not decide. Steel was faster and cheaper. oak took time and skilled workers.
Someone asked how long the steel would last, they could not get an answer so the went for oak because they knew from history that it would last for at least 200 years.
Thanks, Tracy! I think bitumen might have to be it... still attracted to Epoxy in the long run. Sounds like you have to do the job less often once the Epoxy is on.
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Thank you, Dave! The tank is currently Vactaned & I've been lying in it (not crying, but slightly annoyed with myself) to have a think about my options based on what I've read up so far:
1. The boat yard thinks Epoxy is a good idea, but I don't. I've seen the work still to be done in the tank; they've only glanced at it. Areas of millscale alone makes it risky.
2. Whack Bitumen on the Vactan (but this may fall off the millscale too, if I don't succeed to abrade it? and then also be a real bother to take off if I want to do Epoxy next time).
3. Just stick to Vactan, empty it once a year to work a little bit more on it & re-apply Vactan (I assume this is doable while in the canal, as long as plate is warm enough?). By spending 3 years removing all of the old bitumen gradually, I can then do the epoxy next time I'm craned out for blackening..The last option seems the most sensible, but also lazy. And I always start to suspect myself when the lazy option sounds good! I was brought up that hard work is good work, but I simply don't have the time or heart to start from scratch again to do it all right. -
Thankfully I screwed my brain back on and realised it might be worth emailing various paint suppliers. Turns out Bituross was a bitumen. Would have saved me a lot of confusion and faffing if I'd done that on day 1 - I'm on a messy learning curve with this water tank. ? I'm also learning about millscale for the first time & what it looks like. I just want to say: this group is a life saver in terms of picking up vital pieces of info. ❤️
Still, hard to tell what is dark millscale or remains of very old bitumen. And I'm running out of time. I've seen that some just Vactan their tank, but since I have the time to overcoat this weekend, I'm thinking to brave it with Epoxy. I know it won't marry well with either millscale or any missed bits of bitumen, but I'm hoping (quite possibly crazily) that the sheet of Vactan will hold onto the surface and, gently abraded, hold any Epoxy on top of it.
I am half expecting an explosion of "NOOOOOO"s to follow on this happy-go-lucky statement.... In which case, I'll jump the bus and get potable bitumen instead.
(I kind of know I shouldn't Epox it, since I haven'd done sufficient prep work on the steel)
On 04/08/2020 at 15:03, Slim said:I just googled my local 'nuts and bolts supplier) Orbital Fasteners. For A2 S/S countersunk socket screws 8mm x 25mm they want £11.85 per 100. Anytime I've bought small quantities from them they charge pro rata on the smallest on line quoted price so under £2 for 10 and so on. Just a guide price ?
Thank you for the google info! The boat yard told me they've got the screws, so I will leave this part to their expertise. They are still fighting to get all of the brass bits out from the previous screws...
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23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:
Boat 'engineers' / repairers don't make money by being helpful and telling you how to do it "DIY", they make money when you say "I cannot do it, will you do the job ?"
I liked this boat yard the first time around, so I resisted this notion for a long time. They are already making money out of me (craning, opening the tank, tool hire) so I hoped I could assume that whatever guidance they give - even if only a little - would be honest. I don't really know if I should revise that, or just view them as disorganised/disinterested.
The problem, of course, is that I am now deeply resistant to asking them to do it since I feel that I've been given the run around. -
3 hours ago, Slim said:
I thought the way to identify bitumen was white spirit on a white cloth and rub hard. If the cloth stains it's bitumen.
Turns out, they had a little test patch in a drawer in the office all along. I was given it this morning. I have no clue why I wasn't given it straight away, when I presented the problem. *sigh* But at least I have it now. Did the test once, but then realised the surface might be dirty - so I cleaned the surface and tried again. Not all that much came off though so I still feel uncertain if I'm staring at bitumen or 'deeper dirt'.
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11 hours ago, reg said:
Sounds like a job for a Tercoo disks, not cheap but very effective.
I was recommended this in a FB group too, so I am considering giving it a try. Thanks for the links!
3 hours ago, jenevers said:If this stuff is so hard to remove, surely it's not rusty underneath, so why are you trying to remove it?
Because I'm a novice (& possibly a moron) who follow instructions from the boat yard, trusting that they are the experts. In my defence, I questioned the 'you must take it back to metal' advice a couple of times, and particularly after realising that I can't take it back to the metal.
3 hours ago, Bod said:"Brass screws got messy" a difficult question this one, but do you know what size thread they are?
I have some spare 5/16 x 18TPI BSW, brass screws, which may help.
Bod.
The boat yard have advised me to go with stainless steel instead. Thank you so much for the offer though! And thank you, Slim & Bee, for further tips on screws!
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12 minutes ago, blackrose said:
I have only skim read the thread and I couldn't see if anyone else had asked this question, but why would you take your boat out of the water to paint the water tank?
I was a bit nervous about the state of the tank and doing hard grinding while in water, so took it out. I combined it with an early blacking. In hindsight it was possibly unnecessary, but I didn't know at the time. Neither did I know you can get that cheap angle grinders (it was the one thing I didn't google, in all of my googling)! That said, I needed & will need the boat yard's help to sort out the screw holes so I can re-fit the lid (brass screws got messy when they tried to get them out), since I'm not very tool savvy. Hm, tomorrow may be my last day of using a hired grinder at least.
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9 minutes ago, WotEver said:
As others have said, if the non-rusty bits are as well adhered as you describe then I’d leave them alone. Get rid of anything loose, wire brush the rusty bits as best you can, coat the rusty bits with Vactan, then apply a potable blacking.
Thank you, Wotever. ? I am currently not 100% sure that the previous paint was bituminous though. Would there be an issue using potable blacking on something that isn't the same?
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36 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:
No vactan in a water tank, its water based and won't last.
Wire brushes are not ideal on bitumen type stuff. Chip and scrape, chipping hammer and hand scraper, no point in removing the good stuff, do the bad bits and a bit around them.
Watch your eyes and nails, ruined mine often and the nail bars are not open.
I would assume it is ok, if the Vactan is covered with another paint afterwards (bitumen or epoxy?). The Vactan fact sheet mentions its potable and I've seen it recommended for water tanks.
27 minutes ago, Bee said:My thoughts are that if its that hard its not worth it, getting rid of some paints is next to impossible, bituminous paint is one of them, anything you do tends to melt the stuff and mess up the grinding / sanding disc or brush and getting back to chemically inert steel ain't going to happen. Its easy to say take it back to bare steel but in decades of boating I have very, very, seldom done that. Without seeing the thing its hard to know what to do but bituminous potable water tank paint if its still available would probably be perfectly ok, 10 minutes sanding to roughen up the surface, wash the tank out, let it dry and slap a couple of coats on, follow the instructions on the tin and that's it, finished. Why is the boat out of the water? Is it an integral tank? worries about it rusting through?
Yes, it's an integral tank & I was a bit worried since it hasn't been opened in 18 years (to my knowledge). So for assurance I craned it out and did an early blackening too.
I don't know if it is bituminous paint. The name suggests it, but the surface seems hard and slow to get through. If it's not bituminous paint, I'm not sure if I can put a bituminous paint on top?30 minutes ago, dmr said:Its a horrid job so the yard will likely want a lot of money, or more likely just not be interested. So is the "Bituross" melting and clogging up the brush or do you just not have the strength to push hard on the grinder? If its a long term boat then bare metal and epoxy is the way to go, but otherwise if the existing coating is well stuck on then just scrape off any loose bits of and put a potable "blacking" on top of it (after testing a small patch for compatibility). Vactan is not a water tank treatment, its a sort of last resort primer when its not possible to remove rust. Again, if you are not doing a top notch epoxy job then there is no need to go right back to bare metal.
Can find no mention of Bituross on the www.
Are the yard maybe telling you to go to bare metal just to give you a hard time because you are a woman?? or maybe they are saying "you really should go to bare metal....in an idealworld....but....."
................Dave
No, I couldn't find it on the web either! The yard isn't that helpful, tbh - at least not in terms of discussing possibilities & options. It's just 'back to metal' or 'I don't know what to tell you'. Hence my depressed state.
It doesn't melt or clog; just tough to get through. Grinding forever and only inching forwards. Have to pause a lot as the grinder gets very hot. The boat yard worker recommended the angle grinder (i'm hiring it), but also mentioned that they themselves use needle guns for the job (?). It is a long term boat (give & take the intrusion of fate) & I kind of love her, so would like to do the best job. But I also don't want to struggle with my own well-being.
It is not advisable to put vactan on top of the rust, before applying the potable blacking?
8 minutes ago, reg said:Only reference I can find is to
BITUROX
Which appears, as far as I can determine, to be a registered process for making road laying bitumen. If that is what it is then it maybe not the best material for a water tank. I have a slight inkling that it may not be potable.
Note I haven't spend much time reading the material I'll leave that to you.
That's certainly a very similar name!
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Hello Dave, & thanks for responding! On the lid to the tank it seems soft, but it is unfortunately hard in the tank itself. I've been given two types of wire brushes (cup version & one for corners) but I've only worked with the cup version so far. The tank isn't rusty all over, but it if fairly widespread. If I try to get it down to the metal myself, it will take ten days or more - and my sanity with it. I'm about to ask the boat yard for a quote, but not sure if they'd even do this type of jobs. I can't see myself getting successfully down to metal on my own. I was hoping that if this BITUROSS was bitumen, it might be possible to just do vactan on the rust and a new layer of bitumen on top?
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Has anyone used BITUROSS in the past and know what this is (epoxy? bitumen?). I'm craned out to do my water tank & I've reached a stage of despair because it appears I'm crap at angle grinding through this BITUROSS coating (mentioned in my boat's paperwork). I've been advised by the marina to get it back to bare metal, but it literally took me 30 minutes just to achieve a 20cm square. I've overcome crawling into the tiny space, but I can't see how I can overcome my slowness (too weak arms & pressure)? I ended up having a good cry tonight because I felt so overwhelmed.
Any tips really appreciated at this point. -
Hello everyone!
I asked NB Lola to re-open the thread so I'd be able to update you all on the new rescue cat... but then it took ... eh.... a few days before I could find the time to work out how to upload a video (or a gif as it ended up being). ?
So, YES, there is a new one-eyed cat in my home. Things happened a little faster than anticipated as they were delivering rescues from Romania and had an empty van-slot to fill if someone was willing to do a last minute foster - it seemed fate, so I said yes. I then had a bit of a saga picking the cat up - which turned out to be a kitten - from the motorway drop off point (I don't have a car... & still couldn't afford a taxi), but that's another story! (*it consumed a whole weekend & rated a good 7 on the frustration richter scale )
I just wanted you all to know - and especially Tony - that you all contributed to this rescue since I would have had to put it off otherwise (had I brought an expensive electrician around & ended up repaying debts in December!). So YAY TO ALL OF YOU!
I hope it makes you feel SEASONAL.
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Got one; want the other!
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2 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:
Lady-w
many of us on here use the UT203, though for small currents the ut210e is better.
If you decide to get the ut210e meter be careful when ordering as there is also a ut210a and ut210b which both are a bit cheaper BUT they are AC only for current.
Good to know - it would have been something I wouldn't have picked up on at this stage of my learning.
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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:
My meter is a UT 203
I can confirm there is a busbar hung off one end of the shunt and told lady W it's called a busbar but as buses are big red things its easy to not take it all in..
I was probably still digesting that I hadn't lost £400! Busbar.... busbar... Let's not forget that I also learnt that there are two different star screws. The mind boggles. At least when, prior to boating, you're the type of person who only screwed the occasional shelf into a wall.
Ok, UT203 it is! -
Hm, it does mention DC further down in the description?
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Rusty69, I wanted to laugh uprate that but I'm already out of emojis. I must stop being so emotional. ?
I asked about connecting an amp-meter to the shunt, but it would involve moving the... hm... damn I've already forgotten what Tony called it... the thing that's currently attached to the shunt with cables on it. Thingy-majingy. Technically I could afford a monitor after next pay. But if the rewiring is beyond my capabilities, then I might consider relying on a clamp meter until spring when I am having an electrician install solars for me.
I think this was the one Tony was using when he came over:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07B1XPZS2/ref=pd_luc_rh_sspa_dk_huc_pt_expsub_2?psc=1
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1 minute ago, rusty69 said:
Cos if two are different then you need a third to verify. Tis why Mtb has 3 SmartGauges
Oh, good point! That's a lot of multimeters. ...
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2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:
No. You need at least 3,ask MtB!
But he also said they are unlikely to ever fail, so it's a bit of a mystery why he has so many kicking around..... ?
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I've learnt that batteries are Schrodingers batteries unless you have trustworthy readers - so having two lying around might be wise!
When Tony read the batteries and we saw the readings... you know when your brain fully computes what it is seeing, but your heart is just too terrified to believe the good news? That's where I was. I think I'm still there!
In celebration of the fact that I have not lost £400, I am adopting another rescue cat.
Which, in effect, come the day, you will all have helped the adoption of another homeless cat. ❤️
I cannot express how grateful I am for all the suggestions and moral support on here - and, of course, Tony coming all the way over to eye my weird wiring (which turned out to be fine too in the end; the 'negative' was in fact a positive cable that just hadn't been marked red). And all the man would accept from me was a cup of tea and some cake.-
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Stern Gland Packing
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted
If any problem arises from it, I'll let the group know for future reference.