mayalld
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Posts posted by mayalld
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Was just looking at the "I Need A Name" thread in Historical.
Got me wondering and thinking along these lines ... what I my boat were photo'd and, for the sake of arguement, another websites forum asked "What boat is this, who's is it, what is she?" etc and got replied. In some ways I'd feel my privacy was invaded with a nice sideorder of "and WTF has it to do with you?"
I know that having a good-looking, well kept, boat is part of the pride of ownership, so am I just in a bit of a grump this morning as it's really nice outside and I've spent the morning so far just loading and unloading the washing machine?
A boat doesn't have to have a name.
If you don't give it one, BW will register it as "Unnamed - Smith"
Which would probably invade your privacy a fair bit more.
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"you may paint me as hard and unfeeling if you wish," .................don't need to, you have done that by your own post,
In your opinion.
'[1]Society as a whole doesn't accept that theft is OK.' it does, .................just look at house prices, highway bloody robbery but we all cash in and jump on the bandwagon!
Not the same thing, and you know it
'[2]Those who deliberately choose to flout what society accepts must be punished.' .................someone who is ill does not deliberatly flout the law, they are unable to think logically because of their illness!
It is always better to read the whole post before responding. It avoids the possibility of looking like a fool. Points 2 and 3 are to be taken together, and describe alternatives for two different scenarios.
'[3]Those who are incapable mentally of sticking to acceptable behaviour on their own account must be prevented from behaving in unacceptable ways until such time as they will not offend again.' ...................are you suggesting we just lock them up and forget them as we did in Victorian times?
No.
I'm suggesting that people whose illness will lead to criminality must be restrained from criminal activity alongside treatment being given. We can't just say "oh well, in 6 months he'll stop pinching stuff, live with it"
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Sorry - but I just cannot sit still for this - -
I do not believe i have read this sentiment anywhere on this board and I don't know where you are getting your data to support this, but it would be interesting to see.
I feel it is worth saying that just because mental health issues have finally been recognized as sometimes being a mitigating factor in poor judgement leading to unacceptable behaviour, it does not mean that people in general (or even a good many people) "excuse just about anything people [suffering mental illness] do".
One or two very closed minds here. We don't even know if the 'ill' shoe fits, even though it does seem to be indicated. What I can't get my head around is how it seems like one or two of you are sitting in harsh (or some kind of righteous) judgement of something such as this. Closing your minds to anything other than a 'punish him' solution. If a person is (and again I'm not saying that Mr King IS) ill - just because it isn't a physical illness doesn't minimize the fact that it is ILLNESS not a means to an end for committing crime. Oh sure you will have the occasional culprit who will try and use it to their advantaage - but by that same token people sometimes fake physical illness or injury in order to escape work for a day - - - or longer - - sometimes to get benefits - but they don't seem to get nearly the shtick as someone has who has lost the plot and is suffering from mental affliction!!??
- I only hope that nothing so awful ever befalls you or someone you love.
Well, just to clarify matters a little, at least two people close to me have suffered from serious mental illness.
The point that I'm trying to make is that it is all too easy (and happend all too often) for some smart barrister to argue that their client only broke the law because he was mentally ill.
Now, you may paint me as hard and unfeeling if you wish, but the bottom line is this;
- Society as a whole doesn't accept that theft is OK.
- Those who deliberately choose to flout what society accepts must be punished.
- Those who are incapable mentally of sticking to acceptable behaviour on their own account must be prevented from behaving in unacceptable ways until such time as they will not offend again.
It isn't enough to say "provide treatment". What is to happen until such time as the treatment proves effective?
- Society as a whole doesn't accept that theft is OK.
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Whether or not the guy may have mental health problems? Nice!
Yes.
There is a worrying trend these days to excuse just about anything people do, on the grounds that they have mental health problems.
It has become an "I can do whatever I like" charter.
If this guy has some issues, but was fully aware of what he was doing, then punishment must follow. If he is so far gone as to be unaware of what he was doing, then public protection requires his detention until such time as he is no longer likely to do the same thing again.
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This has been said previously but, do we know for a fact that Paul King is still on the boat?
not much speculating on his state of mind until there is no doubt he is at the tiller
Paul King has never been on the boat!
David King would appear to have been on the boat when seen by malc, and in the picture that Tim posted this morning.
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Suggestions about where this boat could be are fine, I am talking about comments made about Mr Kings mental state, reasons behind his taking of the boat, his intentions etc. Only he can answer those questions and it should be left for the authroties to deal with Mr King through lawful investigative and judicial processes.
And I would repeat that speculation about his motivation, and intentions may prove very valuable in pinpointing his next moves.
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I do not display my licence because my status, legal or otherwise, is a private matter between myself and British Waterways. When BW do their surveys they take down details of the boats, go back to the office and confirm those details on the computer. They then take any appropriate action.
The law disagrees with you.
The BW bye-laws require that you display a licence
A boat licence infringes my privacy and, if I am ever prosecuted for the offence, I will take my documentation to court and it will all go away, leaving BW looking foolish.I rather doubt that they would look foolish.
There is a specific offence under the bye-laws of failing to display a licence.
The fact that your boat was licenced would make not the slightest difference to the fact that by failing to display you have commited that offence.
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Hi Graham.
I have been TOLD that a boat has diappeared together with a man named David King. I have been given no direct evidence of this, just read 30 pages of hearsay and conjecture and been shown a photograph that many people think has been altered.
I have to say that unless we accept these basic facts about the boat having vanished as true, we may as well pack up and go home!
As to the alteration of the photo, might I suggest that you read the thread FULLY.
The original photo is fine. At some point somebody converted it from jpg to bmp, and in the conversion a darker area got mangled. It's just an artefact of the format conversion.
1. Given that we are talking about a small company, the point wasn't even remotely relevantYou are arguing from the particular to the general it was said in an earlier post that hire boat companies ran on small profits etc.
I replied that there were some large hire boat companies. You replied thet Middlewich were not one of them. I had never said they were, just that large hire boat companies exist.
2. Do you suggest that it's OK to steal from big companies?
Bring on the stocks pillory and horsewhips.
I don't suggest anything of the sort.
However, neither will I go along with suggestions that because the guy has problems, the hire company and its clients can suffer the pain.
I trust that the courts will send a clear message that having a few problems is not an excuse for acting in a way that is detrimental to other people.
I agree Phil, there is no point in speculating until Mr King is found and he has his lawful right to give his account of the circumstances. Until then everything is just hearsay and conjecture and is simply clouding the issues.Without conjecture, nobody will have the faintest idea where to look.
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Excellent, I can then stop not displaying my licence.
But what on earth will all the net twitchers do?
Why do you not display your licence?
Doesn't BW have enough of a funding hole without wasting money discovering that you are licenced after all?
Time that BW started prosecuting for non-display (it is an offence under BW bye-laws to fail to display a licence, and carries a £100 fine)
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Some hire companies make huge profits, depends how many hire bases/boats they have, I can think of at least two that are very large concerns, with system wide business.
So, nothing like the company that has been affected here then?
And are you really saying that it's OK to stiff a company for a few grand if their profits will stand it?
Yes, you can insure against loss of income as a result of an insurable loss (eg if the customer manages to sink the boat), but I don't believe that you can insure against theft by somebody you have given the keys to.It is possible to have insurance for loss of income from the hire boat and it is not prohibitively expensive.
I cannot think of any circumstance where stealing a hire boat could conceivably attract a lynch mob.
Neither can I. The point that I was making is that nobody has to hope that he will be treated decently, it is a given that he will be treated decently and be tried by the due process of the law.
I think that things have improved a little since then, and there is nothing to suggest that the justice system will treat him other than fairlyThe fairness of the justice system is open to question, ask The Birmighma six, the guildford four, and many many others.
I think Adrian (Moley) is correct, why should the guy not get sympathetic treatment, after all if he HAS committed the crimes he is alleged to have done, and we have no proof he has, yet, then all he is guilty of is some loss to insurance companies, providing adequate cover was taken out and possibly some alteration of some holiday plans.
The mind boggles at the way some people are seeking to minimise what this guy has done.- It is unlikely that this will be paid for by insurance.
- Even if insurance does pay for it, where do you imagine that insurance companies get money from?
- "Sorry, the boat you booked has been pinched, and we don't have another suitable boat" is not "some alteration of some holiday plans"
- It is unlikely that this will be paid for by insurance.
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Hmm not so sure I agree -
should one be punished for being ill? I mean If his sanity - (emotional and mental health) be found seriously impaired would you think it right to punish him? -That's not to say there shouldn't be repercussions - there usually are repercussions when one suffers an illness - even a cold - you lose wages don't you - - but you don't go to jail - or have to be marked as criminal - being marked as unstable for a while would be consequence enough in itself - a stigma to have to live down- -
There is a question of just how impaired his judgement is, and I'm afraid that the fact that he has deliberately set out to disguise the boat's appearance suggests an awareness on his part of what he is doing that precludes a conclusion of insanity.
Granted, he may be going through a tough time, but can we as a society actually afford to let people who are having a tough time do as they please with impunity?
A valiant effort to minimise the seriousness of his actions, but not one that I can agree with!now I know this is in danger of starting the bucket-of-worms thing - but he's not done any physical harm nor is he menacing or threatening any others space. He has (possibly) simply gone off the rails and needs some therapy - yes he has inconvenienced some holiday makers - and yes he has caused loss of money to a business - but that's what insurance is for - and the holiday makers will get their money back - Mr. King will no doubt struggle for a long time to regain his 'self'
he has inconvenienced some holiday makersNo, he has spoiled their holiday. At best they will get a boat other than the boat they wanted (and people hiring Holly don't just want "a boat"), at worst their holiday will be cancelled.
I could be wrong here, but I don't believe that a hire business can actually insure against loss of income due to theft by a customer.he has caused loss of money to a business - but that's what insurance is forthe holiday makers will get their money backWhich is all well and good, but they won't get their week's leave back will they? And who will pay them their money back? Middlewich Narrowboats!
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Ah, so you don't just want him treated decently, you want him treated sympathetically as well.
Whilst I can certainly have sympathy for the problems that he clearly has, it doesn't make his actions any less culpable.
He has caused a considerable financial loss to Middlewich Narrowboats, in respect of lost rental income, which they are unlikely to be able to recoup.
He has disrupted the holiday plans of 5 parties who were due to go away on Holly.
Once the boat is found, Middlewich will have the expense of recovery, repainting and possibly refitting.
I don't know how Middlewich are handling the bookings for Holly, but I would guess that anybody due to go on her in the next 3-4 weeks isn't going, and they could very well have lost half the season's income on the boat.
Most hire companies aren't operating on vast margins, and this will put a huge hole in their profitability.
I hope that he will get help for his problems, but that must come alongside appropriate punishment for the problems he has caused.
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Yeech!!!! I cannot believe some of the things I read on here. I will clear up a couple of points. 1) As we went down the flight we got a routine going in which Dave would go ahead and prepare the next lock, my wife would look after the boats in the current lock and I would go back to close the previous lock. This worked very well. As many of you know there is a fair distance between some of the locks, at these Dave cycled between them, using, guess what, A BIKE, also some of the time he put the bike into the front well. No doubt he did this to avoid it being shown in any photo!!!!! This explains why some pics show bikes and some don't. 2) During the descent we were watched by many walkers, hikers and cyclists, several of these took photos of the flight and some of these will have us in them, none of them were taken covertly or sneakily. The picture that has recently appeared shows lock 33 and must have been taken before mine as mine was taken much nearer the bottom of the flight. I think its a rather good picture of a boat and lock gear, clearly the photographer has an artistic trait. It may, of course, be a cropped part of a bigger picture showing only the relevant bits.
Whilst much of the speculation will amount to nothing, that doesn't make speculation something that should be decried.
Finding Holly will ultimately be assisted if we can work out exactly what Mr King is doing, and how he is doing it.
Thanks for clearing up about the lack of a bike in your picture. It also explains the absence of Mr King in your picture.
yes thank you - I got that from 9 foot 9's postNote to self: read all the posts before responding!
again - it was an observation - you must admit that - as i already said - it is not your run-of-the-mill picture.Freely admitted. As I said above, all speculation has value. It may be that some theories can be rapidly discounted, but better 10 theories put forward and discounted than for a single good possibility to not be mentioned.
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Hi all!
Newbie here,
I've been following this thread for several days. I'm finding it very interesting.
My comment has to do with this picture - it is not your run-of the-mill-picture - it looks as though it was taken on the quiet. Like maybe someone knew that the person on the boat might spot them so they had to be quick and sneaky.
Could be nothing. Could just be the workings of suspicious mind (mine?) dunno.
Nothing so dramatic!
The picture was taken purely in order to act as a location marker in a series of pictures, to avoid the "now, where were we when we took this one" syndrome.
It's a picture of the lock number, which just happens to show Holly in the background.
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from uk.rec.waterways...
http://www.pbase.com/timlewis/image/77427085&exif=Y
This appears to be "blue holly" at Hatton, but taken on 28/3, not 29/3.
Not nearly as much detail as on the earlier picture, but it does show;
1) A man stood by the boat - can we confirm that this is Mr King
2) A bike on the roof - so he will probably be shopping away from the canal
I should also add that the bike is not apparent on the other Blue Holly picture.
Does this suggest that Mr King has a travelling companion who was not aboard when malc took his picture?
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from uk.rec.waterways...
http://www.pbase.com/timlewis/image/77427085&exif=Y
This appears to be "blue holly" at Hatton, but taken on 28/3, not 29/3.
Not nearly as much detail as on the earlier picture, but it does show;
1) A man stood by the boat - can we confirm that this is Mr King
2) A bike on the roof - so he will probably be shopping away from the canal
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In this weather you could probably do without heating, and cooking alone wouldn't use that much gas would it, and he could always be eating out?
I reckon that we get about 2 months cooking out of a single 13kg bottle.
Given that Holly will have gone out with 1 full bottle, and a part bottle, he should be OK for gas.
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If I had intended to steal it I would only have paid for a week's hire, paid cash, booked under an assumed name, travelled to the hire base by public transport with the paint already in my suitcase, gone somewhere quiet to re-paint then got as far away as possible.
Indeed, that is one of the mysteries of the whole case.
There was a distinct lack of apparent prior planning, yet since vanishing with the boat he's been doing *very* well
The only point where I would play it differently to you is that I would have gone for a 2 week hire, as it increases the time before anybody starts searching.
As for the ‘blue Holly ploy’, I think that's far too fanciful. Would he even know about the possibility of an internet-led search? Why would he assume that those people would take a couple of weeks to realise? If they'd had internet onboard, they could have clocked him immediately, why even risk it?I think that's more by luck than pre-planning, and now we know to look past the colour and the trim, and the publicity is spreading, his luck will run out soon.
You are probably right.
To be honest, I'm struggling to find a theory to fit with the way he's gone about it.
He has apparently been dreadfully inept in his planning, but at the same time has been very efficient in making the changes, and in avoiding capture for a considerable time.
It is all so erratic that I can only imagine that he has had some form of mental breakdown, and very possibly honestly imagines that the boat is his.
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If the intention was to steal the boat from the outset, then the quick blue paint job might just be to avoid instant recognition as the "missing green boat", which it succeeded in doing.
I would think that there is a possibility that he had an intended storage/hiding destination in mind early on and now the boat is sheeted over in a place that he may have already planned to take it.
I own an old bus and if I had to move it from it's secure undercover storage to a new location, then I would certainly plan something first. It would be too risky to keep moving around looking as if you were searching for somewhere.
I would doubt that the boat is moving about now as he must realise that it is being looked for, even if he thinks that only a few people are looking!
The fact that the boat wasn't painted until after its hire period was over suggests that there was no prior intent to steal it.
If he intended to steal it, he would have gone hell for leather to get as far as possible, and then painted the boat within a few days of picking it up.
I do wonder if he is more clever than we are giving him credit for.
Having painted the boat blue, he strikes up a protracted conversation with some people on holidays.
He knows that;
1) The boat may well be recognised
2) They won't realise for a couple of weeks.
So, it could have been a ploy to fix the "blue holly" image and travel direction in our minds. It is very possible that he repainted it within a couple of days, and headed in a new direction.
He's doing very well at avoiding detection.
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Ah! Maybe I should clarify ... what is the difference in license colour? I've seen loads of blue and gold ones, so is there another colour for commercial/hire?
No.
The colour of the bar just shows what year the licence is for (blue for 2007)
The type of licence is in text below the bar.
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Although if he had to show the boat's licence it would still say Holly. He has the choice to appear un licenced or display Holly's one.
Or to run up a fake licence, using details from the licence on a similar boat that he's cruised past.
BW licences are hardly the pinacle of security printing.
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Of course, if this guy has access to internet on board Holly, we may be helping him to evade capture! Amost like monitoring police radio.
I hardly think that anything said here will help him to evade capture in the end.
It is (just) possible that he could use info from here to evade for a couple of days longer, but the bottom line is that what he sees here must surely convince him that there is no way that he can escape for good.
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I have been following this story since it first appeared in the national press last week.
We had a large number of canal boat holidays in the 1990's mainly using boats from Anglo-Welsh.
Three things occur to me at present:
1. It must be quite difficult to find a secluded spot where no one would spot someone doing a full repaint.
Not really;
a) a full repaint doesn't take that long.
it's quite common to see people painting up a boat they bought out of a hire fleet.c) It's quite common to see people painting a boat under a motorway bridge, rather than on their mooring, to avoid the dust.
2. Could any new sightings be more specific about nearest postal town and direction of travel (for those of us who are unsure where some of the lock flights are or can't remember)3. Surely the most difficult problem would be re-fuelling. How big is the fuel tank on this boat and how far would anyone get without re filling? I assume that going to a car garage with a small can is an option, but not very likely. A toilet pump out could be avoided if someone was using facilities on land and food is available in many places, but diesel is harder to get easily.
Have all places where diesel is available been alerted or checked?
Clearly, he could have re-fuelled before the boat was reported missing on 24th March
As he only got from Wolverhampton to Hatton in 8 days, he wasn't running much, and wasn't using much diesel.
He could also have been refilling the tank (and some jerrycans) during that time.
Pum out is no problem, just use a self service machine.
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plane crashes , oil rig explosions , train derailments and passenger ferries have all been involved in disasters that investigations later established occured because the safety procedures were not upheld or in the worse cases ignored.
dont kid yourself that those in charge have only your safety in their minds, more likely they are thinking of profit margins or if they will keep their job if they raise to many concerns about safety or lack of it.
yesterday, today and tomorrow lives will be knowingly put at risk in pursuit of the extra penny.
In the narrowboat hire industry, there are certain things that are different to the examples that you give.
1) Much simpler bit of kit.
2) Placed into the hands of a potential idiot.
3) Most consequences of failure will damage the owner more than the hirer.
There simply isn't a real profit motive to put an unsafe boat out on hire.
The mind boggles at the way some people are seeking to minimise what this guy has done.
it's quite common to see people painting up a boat they bought out of a hire fleet.
Dating the BW plate
in General Boating
Posted
Plates are now up to about 515000
It's actually a lot more simple than it used to be, because plates in the 100000 and 500000 series are issued sequentially.
We are 510242, and that is April 2004.
So, 509xxx is probably late 2003 etc etc.